America - The Official Thread

[Sander 001]

And don't dare say we are going in the direction of Nazism. We're NOT.

Except that hate crime and violence via far right white nationalists has gone way up since Trump took office. Mass shooter manifestos also use Trump's language.

Also:

"A poll from the Public Religion Research Institute released in late October showed a majority of Americans agree that Trump has "encouraged white supremacist groups" with his decisions and behavior.

After running a campaign widely decried as driven by xenophobia and racism, Trump was endorsed by the Ku Klux Klans' official newspaper shortly before Election Day in 2016. Trump was also praised by far-right leaders after he blamed "many sides" for deadly violence at a white supremacist rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, last summer."

 

[ryzno]

What did happen, exactly?

A lot. Like the ACA which did nothing but hurt my household.
I voted for those lies...

Anywho.

New York is shipping out their homeless too and Metro Atlanta isn't exactly happy.

Georgia is red, Atlanta is blue, Atlanta is good, but are you?
*just a joke*

 

[TenEightyOne]

An interesting 2017 article in the Grauniad about the American practice of moving the homeless. I don't know much about it but this article leaves the impression that the intention is good but that the outcomes may not be.

 

[Dotini]

Trumpism... I agree with you on some things but I can't help but laugh when you use a word like that.
I believed in "Obamaism", I drank the kool-aid too and look what happened...

And don't dare say we are going in the direction of Nazism. We're NOT.

I'm still waiting for the people to respond who here said we'd be in a nuclear war in his first year.

Do y'all not get how we can't take everything the left and the people who suck up their news seriously, without laughing?

Even before Obama we had postmodern regimes in the White House. Bush and Clinton come to mind. But Reagan?

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

I'm not sure how long the US will remain the world's premiere destination for higher education when our government does such indescribably awful things as setting up a fake college to dupe international students to enroll in (with the help of an accrediting agency playing along!) charging them tuition (to the tune of millions of dollars) and then arresting/deporting them for doing it. Entrapment? Fraud?

The premise of this sting operation was not "how many immigrants can we find breaking the law?" but rather "how many immigrants can we trick into breaking the law?" which seems to be an inherently debased version of law enforcement...it's sickening.

There's evidence to suggest that we are already losing a significant amount of international students...which is a huge part of the higher-ed economy, which is in turn a not-small component of our overall economy. More than that...who even are we at this stage?

 

[Biggles]

Question: Where does Ronald Reagan rate on the scale of Republican postmodernism?

Reagan is unquestionably pre-post modern. I would say that the Reagan era represents the apogee of post-war Republicanism. Reagan was a self-made man from a very modest background & represented a mix of traditional "family values", patriotism, conventional religion, commie hating, big business boosting & trickle down economics. This was wrapped up in personality of charm, bonhomie & a restrained, modest self-confidence. Pretty much all the things that Trump is not. I would say that the Bushes - both senior & junior represented a (somewhat less appealing) version of the same kind of traditional Republican values.

Trump has turned everything Republican upside down & it's hard to see what the GOP now represents other than a subservient backdrop for the bizarre Trump personality cult. Of course, other Presidents lied about things on occasion, but Trump lies about everything all the time, things both big & trivial, & his main concern always seems to be himself.

Trumpism... I agree with you on some things but I can't help but laugh when you use a word like that.

And don't dare say we are going in the direction of Nazism. We're NOT.

I'm not sure what it is, if it's not Trumpism? It's certainly not traditional Republicanism - it's not any kind of political ideology, it's a personality cult. Maybe not Nazism - more like Peronism.

I'm still waiting for the people to respond who here said we'd be in a nuclear war in his first year.

Who are "the people" who said that? Rynzo you repeatedly claim people say things ... when they don't actually say them!

 

[Dotini]

Reagan is unquestionably pre-post modern. I would say that the Reagan era represents the apogee of post-war Republicanism. Reagan was a self-made man from a very modest background & represented a mix of traditional "family values", patriotism, conventional religion, commie hating, big business boosting & trickle down economics. This was wrapped up in personality of charm, bonhomie & a restrained, modest self-confidence. Pretty much all the things that Trump is not. I would say that the Bushes - both senior & junior represented a (somewhat less appealing) version of the same kind of traditional Republican values.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I agree Reagan was not postmodern. He, his men including Baker and Bush Sr. were realists, dealing with real problems, the Cold War and Soviet Union. These men weren't liars, cheaters, stealers, dishonest or corrupt in any known way. They faced their problems squarely, not furtively following a selfish, deviant version of reality. They made a bargain with Russia to end the Cold War and Soviet Union. Recently declassified documents reveal how badly subsequent administrations lived up to that bargain. We need to talk about that.

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-...on-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/t...d-documents-gorbachev-told-nato-wouldnt-23629

 

[ryzno]

Who are "the people" who said that? Rynzo you repeatedly claim people say things ... when they don't actually say them!

People do! Read the posts! I can't help you don't remember posts here.

NK thread is a good start lol.

 

[Biggles]

People do! Read the posts! I can't help you don't remember posts here.

NK thread is a good start lol.

Oh ... you must mean this guy?

Evey President has officially been lied to by Un... Next.

That said I honestly think Trump wants a war.* That's all I'm saying so don't quote me. *no link my opinion

 

[huskeR32]

And don't dare say we are going in the direction of Nazism. We're NOT.

Ironic demand, coming from the guy who's spent a couple years now abusing the word "Socialism."

I'm still waiting for the people to respond who here said we'd be in a nuclear war in his first year.

You've made this claim a couple times lately. Mind finding me a post of someone who said that?

Do y'all not get how we can't take everything the left and the people who suck up their news seriously, without laughing?

I get how successfully you've been trained to dismiss all news out of hand without ever giving it an ounce of critical thought, yes.

 

[Biggles]

You've made this claim a couple times lately. Mind finding me a post of someone who said that?

I think what @rynzo often does is respond to the Fox News reporting of what they say "leftists" are saying, rather than what people are saying on GTPlanet.

I was concerned that Trump would start a war over some incident or perceived slight to himself or the United States. To his credit, he has not gone down that path. The closest he's come so far is in backing out of the Iran deal, effectively declaring economic war on the Iranian regime. Trump's foreign policy has been so erratic & unpredictable it's hard to know what to think. I expect the "Deep State" - meaning anyone with actual experience in foreign affairs, including people with lifetime careers working in the State Department, the CIA & the military - is closely monitoring what Trump is doing & saying & is ready to step in if things get too far out of hand.

I would say that normally, when electing someone with NO experience in international affairs, it's expected that that person would respect the advice of the experts in the field. With Trump you have someone who apparently believes he is an expert in every field himself - by virtue of his own "stable genius". So he is directing foreign policy on the basis of what he considers his "close personal relationships" with people like Kim Jong Un, Vladimir Putin, Boris Johnson, Xi Jinping etc. His qualifications for this, in his own mind, are based his skill at "deal-making" demonstrated during the course of his checkered real estate career & his starring role in a successful reality TV show.

 

[mustafur]

People do! Read the posts! I can't help you don't remember posts here.

NK thread is a good start lol.

This is basically how I see it.

 

[TenEightyOne]

And don't dare say we are going in the direction of Nazism. We're NOT.

What do you think are the differences? Can you see any similarities? Those are genuine questions

 

[Imari]

And don't dare say we are going in the direction of Nazism. We're NOT.

Sure you are, just like a lot of countries that are leaning towards nationalism, populism and authoritarianism at the moment. Australia included.

The Nazis were kind of at the top of their game in that regard, and I'd be shocked if any country actually got even close considering that we all have the example of the Nazis to avoid, but avoiding the idea that a similar style of politics and nationalism is arising at the moment just because the comparison is the Nazis seems a bit like sticking your head in the sand.

 

[ryzno]

Sure you are, just like a lot of countries that are leaning towards nationalism, populism and authoritarianism at the moment. Australia included.

How? I see the word Nazi and instantly think racist.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

How? I see the word Nazi and instantly think racist.

That's true. But you should also think enthusiastic Nationalist too. The racism was something of a means to achieve their utopian ethno-nationalist state - the point wasn't just to be racist. If you look closely, there quite a few figures on the current fringe right (and moving into the mainstream view) that are encouraging ethno-nationalist ideas. In a country as diverse as the United States (probably the most diverse nation in the history of mankind) does that seem like a reasonable approach?

 

[Dotini]

How? I see the word Nazi and instantly think racist.

Yes, Nazis were racists and the US is distinctly the most diverse country in the world.
Another key difference of many is that of Nazi communitarianism vs US individualism.
Think of the ramifications of our de facto national motto, E Pluribus Unum - One from many.
IMHO the crux of the matter is the preservation of the nation-state system which supplanted feudalism a few hundred years ago into a system of borderless globalism and multinational corporations. The European elite have decided nation states have no more place in the world. We, on the other hand, seeing how successful our model is, and have absolutely no intention of forsaking our national federal project begun in 1776. Rock on.

 

[Danoff]

The European elite have decided nation states have no more place in the world. We, on the other hand, seeing how successful our model is, and have absolutely no intention of forsaking our national federal project begun in 1776. Rock on.

The global spread of capitalism is what did that, and it has been the single greatest peace movement ever to have been enjoyed by humanity.

 

[Dotini]

The global spread of capitalism is what did that, and it has been the single greatest peace movement ever to have been enjoyed by humanity.

Trading of copper, tin, amber, obsidian, etc., has been taking place for thousands of years. Trade encourages cultural contact and peaceful relations today as it did then. I fail to see why you are laughing.

 

[Rallywagon]

Is that really true though? I mean, insuppose in a sense, we dont have monarchs trying to take over the world. But we still have governments disrupting other countries, violently, for the resources they gave to hit the market, we have governments and corporations that work hand in hand to basically enslave groups of people to either create (slave labor in India and China for crap like shirts, shoes and electronics) or to mine resources (good ol blood diamonds). All of these things could certainly have been done under different ideologies, but today it's being done at the behest of capitalism.

 

[ryzno]

Is it though? I know China will work their people for pennies but is that Americas fault they treat their people like crap?
If they weren't Communist and the government didn't keep everything they'd probably have better lives. What do you think the hubbub is all about in Hong Kong?

 

[PocketZeven]

Is it though? I know China will work their people for pennies but is that Americas fault they treat their people like crap?
If they weren't Communist and the government didn't keep everything they'd probably have better lives. What do you think the hubbub is all about in Hong Kong?

First of all, the cost of living is much lower in China. Arguably the chinese are much more satisfied with their government then US citizens. In part because of indoctrination and propagenda ofcourse, but also because of culture. Chinese tend to think what can they do for their country and americans tend to think what can the country do for me.

HK is an escalation on the opposition of a extradition law. Which many (non communist) countries also have.

 

[Danoff]

Trading of copper, tin, amber, obsidian, etc., has been taking place for thousands of years. Trade encourages cultural contact and peaceful relations today as it did then. I fail to see why you are laughing.

The laughing emoji was because you were implying that this is some kind of new European movement to abolish nation states, while the reality is that nation states have been eroding in the face of capitalism since it began. That has reached an all-time high recently, with Trump as the backlash.

 

[Dotini]

The laughing emoji was because you were implying that this is some kind of new European movement to abolish nation states, while the reality is that nation states have been eroding in the face of capitalism since it began. That has reached an all-time high recently, with Trump as the backlash.

"This"?

 

[Danoff]

"This"?

The European elite have decided nation states have no more place in the world.

 

[Biggles]

Y
Think of the ramifications of our de facto national motto, E Pluribus Unum - One from many.
IMHO the crux of the matter is the preservation of the nation-state system which supplanted feudalism a few hundred years ago into a system of borderless globalism and multinational corporations. The European elite have decided nation states have no more place in the world. We, on the other hand, seeing how successful our model is, and have absolutely no intention of forsaking our national federal project begun in 1776. Rock on.

Or ... sensible people in the European states, seeing how centuries of wars between nation-states, culminating in two apocalyptic bloodbaths in the two World Wars, came to realize that nationalism easily stepped over the boundaries to become xenophobia & racism & so worked to create international co-operation. The European Union has successfully kept peace in Europe for the longest time in centuries.

The model of the United States? Well, possibly it's the model of multiple states united under one federal government ... sort of the way the EU has been moving for the last 50 years.

And diversity? I'm not sure that The US is necessarily the most diverse modern country. You should try visiting Canada, or Australia.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Or ... sensible people in the European states, seeing how centuries of wars between nation-states, culminating in two apocalyptic bloodbaths in the two World Wars, came to realize that nationalism easily stepped over the boundaries to become xenophobia & racism & so worked to create international co-operation. The European Union has successfully kept peace in Europe for the longest time in centuries.

The model of the United States? Well, possibly it's the model of multiple states united under one federal government ... sort of the way the EU has been moving for the less 50 years.

And diversity? I'm not sure that The US is necessarily the most diverse modern country. You should try visiting Canada, or Australia.

You're saying decades and decades of mercantalism, endless wars, colonial exploitation, and segmented class systems wasn't better than what we have now?

 

[Dotini]

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I agree Reagan was not postmodern. He, his men including Baker and Bush Sr. were realists, dealing with real problems, the Cold War and Soviet Union. These men weren't liars, cheaters, stealers, dishonest or corrupt in any known way. They faced their problems squarely, not furtively following a selfish, deviant version of reality. They made a bargain with Russia to end the Cold War and Soviet Union. Recently declassified documents reveal how badly subsequent administrations lived up to that bargain. We need to talk about that.

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-...on-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/t...d-documents-gorbachev-told-nato-wouldnt-23629

Thanks for providing some unwelcome historical perspective, Dotini. Even more unwelcome is Ron Paul's libertarian viewpoint.

 

[Famine]

The European Union has successfully kept peace in Europe for the longest time in centuries.

How, and what are we defining as "peace"?

The European Union didn't exist until 1993, and that was 48 years after the end of World War 2. If we're defining "peace" as "non-international war" then the 48-year gap between WW2 and the EU is larger than the 26-year spell from EU to now.

Of course technically there was still international war in that period, it's just that the nations weren't either separate nations... or they were. The EU's formation was also only four years after widespread Eastern Bloc unrest which cause the Berlin Wall to fall in 1989, the reunification of Germany and the divide of Czechoslovakia into the Czech Republic and Slovakia. It also came two years into the war in Yugoslavia which didn't end for another eight after that, which saw Yugoslavia eventually divide into Slovenia, Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, FYOR Macedonia (now North Macedonia after an 18-year disagreement with Greece over the name), and Kosovo - a dude killed himself at his war crime trial only two years ago.

There's continued to be internal skirmishes in Kosovo well into this decade, a civil war in Albania, and wars in Chechenya and Dagestan. Then there's the ongoing conflicts between Russia and Ukraine (which got a passenger jet shot down, five years ago), Russia and Georgia, Georgia and Ossetia, Georgia and Abkhaz, the nationalist conflicts in Corsica and Northern Ireland...

... that's a lot of peace not being successfully kept.

 

[Liquid]

How, and what are we defining as "peace"?

It would be fairer to say "amongst member states" for the EU and preceding EEC.

I don't think many people claim that the EU/EEC have kept all of Europe safe from war but with the exception of Northern Ireland, it hasn't done too badly for its member states and even then, the island of Ireland being detached from the mainland kept those Troubles well away from anywhere else, if anyone else cared at all.

The end of communist rule might have been a revolt but the 1992 dissolution of Czechoslovakia into Czechia and Slovakia was peaceful. And for the other places, as mentioned they are not member states or were not at the time.