America - The Official Thread

[VFOURMAX1]

Come on, what you really want to say is:

You do not have a clue as to what I want or what I want to say.

because the presence of undocumented immigrants isn't actually a big problem

These people that you refer to as undocumented immigrants are in fact illegal alien criminals that are breaking this nations laws just by being within our borders. An immigrant is someone who comes to this country from another country LEGALLY and they are not undocumented and breaking our laws by being here.

cannot possibly square with your lack of proximity to them

My area may not be a sanctuary city but we have our share of illegal alien criminals here in this area. I had a 17 year old extended family member stabbed to death a couple of years ago by 5 illegal alien MS-13 gang members so do not tell me that I have not experienced the effects.

militant, with heart racing indignation. But again, you don't really care.

You are one to talk as you trash talk this nations immigration laws and rules while displaying an Iran flag and in you avatar list and reference to the city of San Francisco, CA Iran. I do find that reference offensive to this nation.
San Francisco, CA is the U.S.A ALTHOUGH NOT ONE OF MY FAVORITE PLACES IT STILL DESERVES THE RESPECT OF BEING A CITY IN THE U.S.A.

Spend some time worrying about your own actual wants you are not saying actually seems more appropriate here.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

You are one to talk as you trash talk this nations immigration laws and rules while displaying an Iran flag and in you avatar list and reference to the city of San Francisco, CA Iran. I do find that reference offensive to this nation.
San Francisco, CA is the U.S.A ALTHOUGH NOT ONE OF MY FAVORITE PLACES IT STILL DESERVES THE RESPECT OF BEING A CITY IN THE U.S.A.

Spend some time worrying about your own actual wants you are not saying actually seems more appropriate here.

I've been waiting for somebody to be triggered by that flag, though that isn't it's purpose. I support the people of Iran and their struggle against a theocratic authoritarian regime (hence the flag) and live in San Francisco. GTPlanet conflates the two.

I am intimately familiar with this nations immigration laws...enough to know that most US citizens would probably completely and totally flunk the legal process due to how burdensome and expensive it is. Imagine going to the DMV for 4+ years (or 15+ years if you're Indian). I'll say that it's wrong to attempt to gain entry to the US illegally and people shouldn't do it. I'll also say that those who do, in probably most circumstances, don't feel like they have a choice.

I'll also say those that are here and not causing problems (reasonable to say that figure is 95%+) shouldn't justify deploying resources that should be protecting our border from actual threats to cities that, presumably, have tactical squads of their own should they be needed. Sending immigration tactical squads into sanctuary cities is a photo-op with it's priorities in all the wrong places so that you can feel good about the federal government "cracking down" on liberals. Go ahead, tell me that tactical immigration forces are NECESSARY in cities that have their own SWAT teams. Explain to me a situation in which an ICE tactical unit would be needed that the local Police wouldn't respond to first. It's an elaborate photo op, full stop.

I don't understand your last sentence.

 

[Joey D]

I'll also say those that are here and not causing problems (reasonable to say that figure is 95%+) shouldn't justify deploying resources that should be protecting our border from actual threats to cities that, presumably, have tactical squads of their own should they be needed. Sending immigration tactical squads into sanctuary cities is a photo-op with it's priorities in all the wrong places so that you can feel good about the federal government "cracking down" on liberals. Go ahead, tell me that tactical immigration forces are NECESSARY in cities that have their own SWAT teams. Explain to me a situation in which an ICE tactical unit would be needed that the local Police wouldn't respond to first. It's an elaborate photo op, full stop.

Within six weeks of these "tactical border patrol units" hitting cities I'm guessing that one of the following will happen: 1.) an unarmed person will be straight up shot 2.) an American citizen will be detained and denied basic rights that all Americans are promised or 3.) a home or business will be raided without a proper warrant or 4.) some ignorant redneck will go all vigilante and try to round out "dem illegal ayleons who took urr jerbs". Possibly a combination of all four might happen as well.

Also, why does any law enforcement agency have a "tactical" unit? They aren't the military nor should they be allowed to act like one.

 

[GranTurNismo]

Here are my two cents about the whole "border crisis" thingy.

For Republicans, this issue has very little to do with border security and people not having citizenship. It is almost completely a race issue. Truth be told, Republicans, who are 90% non-hispanic white, don't want to see more Hispanics/Latinx people in the US. They know that as time progresses, the white race is becoming less and less of a majority in the US, so they feel outraged and intimidated by this, and want to prevent this "demographic replacement" from happening. Despite Hispanic/Latinx immigrants actually committing violent crime at a statistically lower rate than whites in the US, the Republican media, as well as our own president, promote the idea that these people as a whole are dangerous, are a threat to the nation's security, and the only way this could be solved is building a wall, ending sanctuary cities, and mass deportations. Hispanics/Latinx people, despite them being the poorest race on average, work the most amount of hours per week on average than any other race, yet are portrayed as lowlifes leeching from the government, and causing strain on taxpayers. The media/president uses fear-mongering terms such as calling this an "invasion" or a "replacement". As such, the ordinary Republican citizen buys into this baseless crap, and thus feels prejudiced towards Hispanic/Latinx immigrants, regardless of their citizenship status.

As aforementioned, this is very little an issue of citizenship and almost completely a race issue. There is an estimate of 11 million undocumented Hispanic/Latinx people living in the US. Republicans often complain about how many undocumented people there are in the US (yet only refer to the H/L ones). In theory, if all 11 million of these people patiently waited for their legal citizenship and were granted it, Republicans would rejoice and there would no longer be an issue of undocumented people in the US. But this is absolutely not the case. Republicans would still be angry, and instead would find another tactic to keep the H/L people out and ensure that America remains a majority white nation. Imagine if there were 11 million Scandinavian undocumented immigrants in the US (I use Scandinavian in this example since many Republicans perceive them as the "ideal" group of people, since they supposedly all work hard, are Christian and white, commit very little crime, and don't complain). Republicans wouldn't give a rats ass if this the case. There wouldn't be any "undocumented immigrant" crisis like there is now. It's only an issue when it's a mass amount of non-whites involved. What they really mean is, "we don't want any more H/L people in the US" but they use dog whistles such as "border security" and "undocumented immigrant crisis" instead of explicitly saying the aforementioned, because they know that an overtly racist statement as such couldn't catch on with the general public as well.

I know this may sound anecdotal, but in my city, Hispanics and Latinx people (a good number of which are first-generation immigrants) account for roughly 60% of the total population. Although they do have a high poverty rate, they are a great asset to the community in many ways. Generally, they work long hours of hard jobs (usually manual labor and service type occupations) and do a good job at it, are very family-oriented, commit crime at a low rate, and are friendly and sociable people. A good chunk of them also don't have full citizenship, but I simply couldn't care less. It's really not my business in the first place, as citizenship status shouldn't define one's worth or character. Only 10% of the people in my town are non-Hispanic white, but it doesn't bother me one bit. As a white person I don't feel excluded or intimidated here, simply because I don't value people baced on race.

I'll tell you what the actual "border crisis" is. It's the amount of methamphetamine and black-tar heroin pouring into the US from Central America. Not men, women, and children entering the US to flee 3rd-world conditions and threats from cartels, hoping to make for a better life, who don't have citizenship yet. What many fail to realize is that these people don't have citizenship not because they are lazy or un-American, but because the process to obtain citizenship is grueling and very time-consuming, and I'd even venture to say it is that way intentionally. For many coming through the border, they simply don't have the time to wait. I don't know what the solution to the drug problem is, but I do know that simply constructing a wall or a high fence is ineffective at best.

Before I get all the flak for this, when I say "Republicans", I don't mean literally all of them. In theory, that should go without saying, but if I've learned one thing around these parts, it is to walk on eggshells.

Also, no human being is illegal on stolen land. Or in any civilization, for that matter.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

I've been waiting for somebody to be triggered by that flag, though that isn't it's purpose.

Well you got your wish and for reasons explained in a prior post I still find it as displayed in your avatar with the city description as tasteless and offensive to this country.

I don't understand your last sentence

Look above and try again!

I'll also say those that are here and not causing problems (reasonable to say that figure is 95%+) shouldn't justify deploying resources that should be protecting our border from actual threats to cities that, presumably, have tactical squads of their own should they be needed.

Regardless of where within this nations borders that illegal aliens are residing they are illegals and criminals breaking this countries laws just by being here on this countries soil and should by our nations laws be rounded up, arrested and deported period.

I do not know what part of being here ILLEGALLY therefore making them achieve a criminal status you are failing to comprehend. As a citizen of this country if I violate this countries laws I will be prosecuted for breaking those laws.
Are you trying to tell me that someone that has violated and invaded this country illegally should have more rights and not be prosecuted or be responsible for the laws they violated and punished to the full extent for the laws the have violated? Are you telling me these illegal alien criminals should have more rights and receive a pass for their criminal acts while a citizen of this country should face punishment for their crimes.

I am intimately familiar with this nations immigration laws...enough to know that most US citizens would probably completely and totally flunk the legal process due to how burdensome and expensive it is. Imagine going to the DMV for 4+ years (or 15+ years if you're Indian).

Can you imagine just how unfair that someone that is legally following our immigration process must feel when they see others ignore the immigration laws, spend no money and put in no effort to be in this country? What about the legal immigrant that now has to compete in a job market that is filled with illegals making jobs harder to obtain that have no investment in coming here to improve their families lives is that fair as well.

Why with your thinking and what you support would anyone bother with trying to immigrate here legally WHEN ILLEGALS GET PROTECTION AND A FREE PASS AND NO EXPENSIVE AND DIFFICULT PROCESS TO CIRCUMVENT?

Every illegal alien that crosses our border could be a potential threat to the citizens or the country as a whole, no way to know there has been no vetting of an illegal and these are what the sanctuary cities want to protect. Totally ridiculous to even consider this should be allowed anywhere within our nations borders.

Also, why does any law enforcement agency have a "tactical" unit? They aren't the military nor should they be allowed to act like one.

If you have to ask that question you are not paying attention to the gangs and criminals that have no problems taking hostages or engaging in gun battles to avoid arrest. The stupidity being displayed here is off the charts with some of the comments and positions you people take.

 

[TexRex]

You do not have a clue as to what I want or what I want to say.

These people that you refer to as undocumented immigrants are in fact illegal alien criminals that are breaking this nations laws just by being within our borders. An immigrant is someone who comes to this country from another country LEGALLY and they are not undocumented and breaking our laws by being here.

My area may not be a sanctuary city but we have our share of illegal alien criminals here in this area. I had a 17 year old extended family member stabbed to death a couple of years ago by 5 illegal alien MS-13 gang members so do not tell me that I have not experienced the effects.

You are one to talk as you trash talk this nations immigration laws and rules while displaying an Iran flag and in you avatar list and reference to the city of San Francisco, CA Iran. I do find that reference offensive to this nation.
San Francisco, CA is the U.S.A ALTHOUGH NOT ONE OF MY FAVORITE PLACES IT STILL DESERVES THE RESPECT OF BEING A CITY IN THE U.S.A.

Spend some time worrying about your own actual wants you are not saying actually seems more appropriate here.

Self-proclaimed old white guy given to random outbursts of caps lock, employs the right-wing blame cliché "MS-13" and is an unwavering supporter of Donald Trump.

Are...are you actually Donald Trump?

I've been waiting for somebody to be triggered by that flag, though that isn't it's purpose. I support the people of Iran and their struggle against a theocratic authoritarian regime (hence the flag) and live in San Francisco. GTPlanet conflates the two.

I am intimately familiar with this nations immigration laws...enough to know that most US citizens would probably completely and totally flunk the legal process due to how burdensome and expensive it is. Imagine going to the DMV for 4+ years (or 15+ years if you're Indian). I'll say that it's wrong to attempt to gain entry to the US illegally and people shouldn't do it. I'll also say that those who do, in probably most circumstances, don't feel like they have a choice.

I'll also say those that are here and not causing problems (reasonable to say that figure is 95%+) shouldn't justify deploying resources that should be protecting our border from actual threats to cities that, presumably, have tactical squads of their own should they be needed. Sending immigration tactical squads into sanctuary cities is a photo-op with it's priorities in all the wrong places so that you can feel good about the federal government "cracking down" on liberals. Go ahead, tell me that tactical immigration forces are NECESSARY in cities that have their own SWAT teams. Explain to me a situation in which an ICE tactical unit would be needed that the local Police wouldn't respond to first. It's an elaborate photo op, full stop.

I don't understand your last sentence.

Spend. Some. Time. Worrying. About. Your. Own. Actual. Wants. You. Are. Not. Saying. Actually. Seems. More. Appropriate. Here.

What is there to not get?!

 

[GranTurNismo]

Well you got your wish and for reasons explained in a prior post I still find it as displayed in your avatar with the city description as tasteless and offensive to this country.


Look above and try again!


Regardless of where within this nations borders that illegal aliens are residing they are illegals and criminals breaking this countries laws just by being here on this countries soil and should by our nations laws be rounded up, arrested and deported period.

I do not know what part of being here ILLEGALLY therefore making them achieve a criminal status you are failing to comprehend. As a citizen of this country if I violate this countries laws I will be prosecuted for breaking those laws.
Are you trying to tell me that someone that has violated and invaded this country illegally should have more rights and not be prosecuted or be responsible for the laws they violated and punished to the full extent for the laws the have violated? Are you telling me these illegal alien criminals should have more rights and receive a pass for their criminal acts while a citizen of this country should face punishment for their crimes.


Can you imagine just how unfair that someone that is legally following our immigration process must feel when they see others ignore the immigration laws, spend no money and put in no effort to be in this country? What about the legal immigrant that now has to compete in a job market that is filled with illegals making jobs harder to obtain that have no investment in coming here to improve their families lives is that fair as well.

Why with your thinking and what you support would anyone bother with trying to immigrate here legally WHEN ILLEGALS GET PROTECTION AND A FREE PASS AND NO EXPENSIVE AND DIFFICULT PROCESS TO CIRCUMVENT?

Every illegal alien that crosses our border could be a potential threat to the citizens or the country as a whole, no way to know there has been no vetting of an illegal and these are what the sanctuary cities want to protect. Totally ridiculous to even consider this should be allowed anywhere within our nations borders.


If you have to ask that question you are not paying attention to the gangs and criminals that have no problems taking hostages or engaging in gun battles to avoid arrest. The stupidity being displayed here is off the charts with some of the comments and positions you people take.

Thanks for confirming you are a racist. As the old adage goes, you can't make sense out of nonsense.

 

[Joey D]

Are...are you actually Donald Trump?

I mean I've never seen him and Donald Trump post on GTP at the same time.

 

[Northstar]

Every illegal alien that crosses our border could be a potential threat to the citizens or the country as a whole,

I know, like this one time this guy filled a truck with fertilizer and stuff and blew up a building!

Oh wait... he was born in New York...

A vast majority of illegal immigrants just want to provide the best life they can for themselves and their families. Granted I don't know the legal status of all of them, but working in the construction field I work with quite a few Mexicans and apart from them usually singing along to rather loud mariachi music I have yet to have any real issues with any of them.

 

[Joey D]

A vast majority of illegal immigrants just want to provide the best life they can for themselves and their families. Granted I don't know the legal status of all of them, but working in the construction field I work with quite a few Mexicans and apart from them usually singing along to rather loud mariachi music I have yet to have any real issues with any of them.

They also do jobs that no American wants to do for the price a person is willing to pay. Think about all the jobs that are typically associated with illegal immigrants: landscaping, dishwashing, custodial, picking crops, construction, etc. Most of those jobs Americans are going to want more money, work fewer hours, and will absolutely need insurance...assuming they want to do those jobs at all (which many don't). By employee migrant workers, it keeps the price down and provides a boost to the economy. Can you imagine how much something like blueberries would be if farmers had to pay everyone picking them in a field $10 an hour plus overtime? Instead of $3 a pint, they'd be $12 a pint.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Can you imagine just how unfair that someone that is legally following our immigration process must feel when they see others ignore the immigration laws, spend no money and put in no effort to be in this country?

I don't have to imagine. Position: Unchanged. I don't know a single immigrant (and I know many of them) who considers illegal immigration as a problem of high priority. Again, it's for sure not right. The question is how many resources do you want to devote to this issue? I've got 99 problems. Not one of them is an illegal immigrant.

What about the legal immigrant that now has to compete in a job market that is filled with illegals making jobs harder to obtain that have no investment in coming here to improve their families lives is that fair as well.

Again, don't have to imagine. What's that unemployment number again? Is it good or not good? In fact I know people who cannot find US citizens to hire because the unemployment rate is so low in San Francisco. Seriously. Like 6 months of open job postings and only (legal) immigrants applied.

Why with your thinking and what you support would anyone bother with trying to immigrate here legally WHEN ILLEGALS GET PROTECTION AND A FREE PASS AND NO EXPENSIVE AND DIFFICULT PROCESS TO CIRCUMVENT?

I think you are vastly overestimating how "supported" these people are.

Every illegal alien that crosses our border could be a potential threat to the citizens or the country as a whole, no way to know there has been no vetting of an illegal and these are what the sanctuary cities want to protect. Totally ridiculous to even consider this should be allowed anywhere within our nations borders.

Every natural born US citizen could be a potential threat to the citizens or the country as a whole. Do you want to provide some statistics (not instances) to prove that immigrants are such a large scale danger that you would be justified in being this passionate about getting rid of all of them?

If you have to ask that question you are not paying attention to the gangs and criminals that have no problems taking hostages or engaging in gun battles to avoid arrest. The stupidity being displayed here is off the charts with some of the comments and positions you people take.

I've lived in Oakland, man. I think your perception of the situation is not aligned with reality.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

employs the right-wing blame cliché "MS-13"

Basically the 5 illegals who stabbed and killed the young man were caught and apprehended attempting to steal a car to flee the area and when they were prosecuted for his murder in a court of law it was revealed through official court testimony BY LAW ENFORCEMENT the affiliation these people had with MS-13.

Perhaps one day such an instance may occur to someone in your family and perhaps your position will then change from its current viewpoint.

Thanks for confirming you are a racist. As the old adage goes, you can't make sense out of nonsense.

I have not seen where I have mentioned race, gender, country of origin in any way shape or form in my supporting that this countries immigration laws be enforced and illegal immigrants should be deported.
Hard to call out a person for being racist when they are equal opportunity for all races to be subjected to legally following this countries immigration laws. You sir are the one that has confirmed that you try to place the race card concerning an issue where race is of little to no actual concern.

A vast majority of illegal immigrants just want to provide the best life they can for themselves and their families. Granted I don't know the legal status of all of them, but working in the construction field I work with quite a few Mexicans

Another one that wants to try to make this about race and play the race card! YOU GUYS ARE UNREAL.

 

[Northstar]

Another one that wants to try to make this about race and play the race card! YOU GUYS ARE UNREAL.

Because you were totally talking about all those bloody illegal Canucks causing problems!

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Because you were totally talking about all those bloody illegal Canucks causing problems!

Eh.

 

[TexRex]

Basically the 5 illegals who stabbed and killed the young man were caught and apprehended attempting to steal a car to flee the area and when they were prosecuted for his murder in a court of law it was revealed through official court testimony BY LAW ENFORCEMENT the affiliation these people had with MS-13 so YOU CAN TAKE YOUR SMART ASS COMMENT about a personal family situation you know nothing about AND RAM IT UP YOUR ASS.

*CAPS LOCK INTENSIFIES*

 

[VFOURMAX1]

*CAPS LOCK INTENSIFIES*

Wanted to make sure you saw it and understood it.

 

[GranTurNismo]

Basically the 5 illegals who stabbed and killed the young man were caught and apprehended attempting to steal a car to flee the area and when they were prosecuted for his murder in a court of law it was revealed through official court testimony BY LAW ENFORCEMENT the affiliation these people had with MS-13 so YOU CAN TAKE YOUR SMART ASS COMMENT about a personal family situation you know nothing about AND RAM IT UP YOUR ASS.

Perhaps one day such an instance may occur to someone in your family and perhaps your position will then change from its current viewpoint.

I have not seen where I have mentioned race, gender, country of origin in any way shape or form in my supporting that this countries immigration laws be enforced and illegal immigrants should be deported.
Hard to call out a person for being racist when they are equal opportunity for all races to be subjected to legally following this countries immigration laws. You sir are the one that has confirmed that you try to place the race card concerning an issue where race is of little to no actual concern.

Another one that wants to try to make this about race and play the race card! YOU GUYS ARE UNREAL.

This is precisely the reason why I’ve insinuated that you are racist. You take an incident committed by MS13, an extreme, extreme minority of Hispanics, and act as if the 11 million other undocumented Hispanics in the US should somehow be accountable for those actions, and use that as justification to be hostile towards these migrants. Surely you wouldn’t attribute a KKK lynching to ordinary white folks, so why would you do something like that in this case? The chance of you getting struck by lightning or winning the Mega Millions is almost certainly higher than MS13 ever having a direct impact on your life.

 

[TexRex]

Wanted to make sure you saw it and understood it.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

This is precisely the reason why I’ve insinuated that you are racist. You take an incident committed by MS13, an extreme, extreme minority of Hispanics, and act as if the 11 million other undocumented Hispanics in the US should somehow be accountable for those actions,

Seems you are the one that is calling out the race as to who has the highest number of illegals in this country not me. If one ethnic group is the majority committing the immigration offenses then it would stand to reason that group would be subjected to a higher number of deportations than a different ethnic group that had fewer violations. How does that turn the situation into being racist in nature?

Again the experience of the situation committed by MS-13 is an example of people that have not been vetted by our legal immigration process but have entered this country illegally with in this case a tragic outcome. Again I have not seen where I mentioned any race whatsoever or insinuated that it was any particular race or country of origin only that these particular illegal aliens were associated with MS-13. That would be about the same as if I was talking about gun violence in the City of Chicago would that make me a racist if you placed a racial association with gun violence in that city or again would that not be you placing racial tags not me?

If from that you can take I was insinuating anything from a racial standpoint I go back and again say that you are looking for something to try to paint me as a racist. I have told you I am equal opportunity for all races to be subjected to this countries immigration laws and policies and all illegal aliens aliens regardless of race, gender, creed or country of origin should be prosecuted and deported if they violate those laws.

 

[Joey D]

Again I have not seen where I mentioned any race whatsoever or insinuated that it was any particular race or country of origin only that these particular illegal aliens were associated with MS-13

MS-13 is literally a Salvadorian gang, how is that not mentioning a particular race or country?

Also, there are less than 10,000 MS-13 gang members in the US and account for less than 1% of the total gang population. They are hardly the problem and you're more likely to be killed by the Mob than an MS-13 gang member.

 

[TexRex]

More likely to be killed by a mop.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Are...are you actually Donald Trump?

I actually thought about this some. In some ways it fits. Ideologically, there are some similarities. But the penchant for colorful & expletive-laden outbursts, the uncritical, unshakable faith in the criminal justice system and the general and world-defining suspicion of city folks and the non-standard. No, that my friend is Buford T Justice.



"I'm gonna BBQ your ass in molasses" Just pure gold.

 

[Scaff]

Every illegal alien that crosses our border could be a potential threat to the citizens or the country as a whole,

They are statistically less dangerous than those citizens you claim are at danger from them.

https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/is-illegal-immigration-linked-to-more-or-less-crime/

 

[VFOURMAX1]

They are statistically less dangerous than those citizens you claim are at danger from them.

But even if one legal U.S. citizen is attacked, beaten, robbed or killed by someone that is here in this country illegally then the country has failed at protecting its legal citizens within its countries borders.

A countries goal should be to 100% protect it citizens against harm from any illegal invaders of its borders. The only way to do that is to keep the nations borders secure from being entered illegally by anyone. Even one illegal in this country is one too many. But yet many of you find that having millions of illegals in this country as acceptable.

 

[TenEightyOne]

But even if one legal U.S. citizen is attacked, beaten, robbed or killed by someone that is here in this country illegally then the country has failed at protecting its legal citizens within its countries borders.

If any U.S. citizen is attacked, beaten, robbed or killed by someone then the country has failed at protecting its legal citizens full stop, surely? Punch-for-punch somebody's got you scared about the wrong demographic, imo.

 

[Scaff]

But even if one legal U.S. citizen is attacked, beaten, robbed or killed by someone that is here in this country illegally then the country has failed at protecting its legal citizens within its countries borders.

A countries goal should be to 100% protect it citizens against harm from any illegal invaders of its borders. The only way to do that is to keep the nations borders secure from being entered illegally by anyone. Even one illegal in this country is one too many. But yet many of you find that having millions of illegals in this country as acceptable.

An utterly unachievable standard, and a logical fallacy of appealing to the impossible, well unless you are asking for all visitors to the US being banned, no one allowed in at all.

Its also a strawman, given that you can't do it (to an even greater degree) in regard to US citizens from themselves.

Rather poor far-right dog-whistle with the invaders' imagery.

 

[Danoff]

@VFOURMAX1 has said some racist stuff on GTP in the past, and got called out for it then too. So I'm not going to jump to his defense here. But I do want to say that this bit I think is wrong:

For Republicans, this issue has very little to do with border security and people not having citizenship. It is almost completely a race issue. Truth be told, Republicans, who are 90% non-hispanic white, don't want to see more Hispanics/Latinx people in the US.

I honestly do not think this is a race issue for most republicans. I think it's an economics issue, and the left and right are both failing the same economics problem. It all stems from the "piece of the pie" fallacy. The problem goes like this "I don't want to have to share my piece of the pie with an unending influx of new pie eaters". And then the other side says "They're hungry, you greedy people need to give up a piece of your pie".

There is no pie. The pie is a lie.

Trump has traded in this particular economic fallacy both on illegal immigration and international trade, and in both cases it's completely false, but both sides love this fiction so much that it just perpetuates. In economics, wealth is created and destroyed (the pie grows and shrinks). When you go to work, you create your salary, otherwise you would not have it. You're not scratching to take something from someone else, you're creating.

What this also means is that when people immigrate (either legally or illegally) into this country and start to work for pay, they're not taking a piece of anyone's pie. They create their own wealth. To first order (in the mathematical sense, not the Hitler sense), they're completely separable from you. To second order, their production actually benefits you. Now to the extent that we create a social safety net and start giving handouts to any of these people (which generally we do not actually, we give those handouts to American slobs (and some worthy charity cases too), not to illegal immigrant slobs), then they'd be taking some of the federal budget. But they don't do that. Furthermore, we generally don't need these people to pay taxes, because they're not getting enough money under the table to actually owe taxes. If they did file a tax return, they'd get earned income tax credit and take more out of the federal budget.

Anyway, this is a big part of what perpetuates the immigration problem. Both sides view it as charity to let people in, when actually it's just allowing someone to create for themselves and grow the economy as a whole.

 

[Scaff]

@VFOURMAX1 has said some racist stuff on GTP in the past, and got called out for it then too. So I'm not going to jump to his defense here. But I do want to say that this bit I think is wrong:



I honestly do not think this is a race issue for most republicans. I think it's an economics issue, and the left and right are both failing the same economics problem. It all stems from the "piece of the pie" fallacy. The problem goes like this "I don't want to have to share my piece of the pie with an unending influx of new pie eaters". And then the other side says "They're hungry, you greedy people need to give up a piece of your pie".

There is no pie. The pie is a lie.

Trump has traded in this particular economic fallacy both on illegal immigration and international trade, and in both cases it's completely false, but both sides love this fiction so much that it just perpetuates. In economics, wealth is created and destroyed (the pie grows and shrinks). When you go to work, you create your salary, otherwise you would not have it. You're not scratching to take something from someone else, you're creating.

What this also means is that when people immigrate (either legally or illegally) into this country and start to work for pay, they're not taking a piece of anyone's pie. They create their own wealth. To first order (in the mathematical sense, not the Hitler sense), they're completely separable from you. To second order, their production actually benefits you. Now to the extent that we create a social safety net and start giving handouts to any of these people (which generally we do not actually, we give those handouts to American slobs (and some worthy charity cases too), not to illegal immigrant slobs), then they'd be taking some of the federal budget. But they don't do that. Furthermore, we generally don't need these people to pay taxes, because they're not getting enough money under the table to actually owe taxes. If they did file a tax return, they'd get earned income tax credit.

Anyway, this is a big part of what perpetuates the immigration problem. Both sides view it as charity to let people in, when actually it's just allowing someone to create for themselves and grow the economy as a whole.

Not all from the left think in that manner at all, I speak from personal experience in that regard.

Immigrants contribute to the US (and UK and EU) economies, and the economy itself helps create the demand that drives that need, particularly in countries with aging populations.

 

[Danoff]

Not all from the left think in that manner at all, I speak from personal experience in that regard.

Immigrants contribute to the US (and UK and EU) economies, and the economy itself helps create the demand that drives that need, particularly in countries with aging populations.

Understood, and on the right too. I'm speaking with a broad brush here.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

An utterly unachievable standard,

Its also a strawman, given that you can't do it

But because the difficulty or maybe even the impossibility of achievement being 100% perfect does not mean nor should it eliminate that you strive to achieve the highest level towards 100% of that goal that you can accomplish.

Straw man here is being used as a poor excuse to not try and would be admitting defeat or saying you do not have the ability to improve or attempt to improve against past accomplishments. Perhaps that is the way you think but I always feel like we have the capability to achieve higher levels. Maybe that is just the difference in the way a Brit thinks than a Yank thinks though.