America - The Official Thread

[NotThePrez]

The point being,clearly the current Canadian government learned nothing from it.

Hold up, are you trying to blame the current Canadian government for an event that happened 17 years ago? Because the article you linked clearly stated that SARSstock happened in 2003.

If you're trying to blame the current Canadian administration for their COVID response, keep in mind that Canada (as of 7PM Sep 19) has had "only" ~143,000 total confirmed cases, with less than 10,000 fatalities. That's a fraction compared to the nearly ~7 million confirmed cases and nearly ~200,000 deaths the US is currently having to contend with. To put it another way, ~0.4% of your population has been infected, while ~2.1% of the US population has been infected. It's pretty clear (and has been mentioned multiple times in this thread already) that amongst other things, your government has learned from previous events, and decided to implement regulations without a need for political red-tape, unlike the US.

Once again, exactly what is the argument you're trying to make?

I suggest you watch the video, you wouldn’t make an ignorant statement like that if you had.
Less than 25 mg heroin is not PROSECUTED, technically illegal but allowed since no prosecution.
You haven’t watched it, I know that for a fact, now.
If you haven’t watched just don’t comment further, it’s almost like you’re just making stuff up, or typing out a scripted narrative...
Smh

I believe you missed @mustafur using Portugal as a pretty good example of what effective decriminalization looks like, and its effects.

 

[huskeR32]

He locked down borders, outcry.
After time HE DIDNT LOCKDOWN SOON ENOUGH.

Revisionist nonsense. There was no “outcry” about him closing the border, there was criticism about how he went about it.

In his typical short-sighted fashion, he only did it for flights coming from China, rather than paying attention to the realities of how and where the virus was already spreading. He also allowed US citizens to return from China as if the virus was sentient and choosing to only infect Chinese citizens.

The criticism has always been that he wasn’t doing enough.

 

[Groundfish]

Guys, Portugal to USA isn’t a valid comparison, and since the video I posted hasn’t been watched there’s no reason I should look at the links etc.
My example is from right here in USA and it shows what happens HERE when heroin use methamphetamine use are effectively legalized by failure to prosecute and rehab.
The problem with the Libertarian position is as I said before it’s inherently narcissistic-it’s proponents make the mistake of assuming if everyone behaved like they do everything would be utopian, many ideas work in the never never land of imagination, but reality is reality.
I could vote for Mickey Mouse but I’m not accomplishing anything except opting out of politics altogether.
Libertarianism is a failed ideology because it’s a fundamental misunderstanding of humanity, It’s much like Communism in that respect.

 

[killerjimbag]

Hold up, are you trying to blame the current Canadian government for an event that happened 17 years ago? Because the article you linked clearly stated that SARSstock happened in 2003.

If you're trying to blame the current Canadian administration for their COVID response, keep in mind that Canada (as of 7PM Sep 19) has had "only" ~143,000 total confirmed cases, with less than 10,000 fatalities. That's a fraction compared to the nearly ~7 million confirmed cases and nearly ~200,000 deaths the US is currently having to contend with. To put it another way, ~0.4% of your population has been infected, while ~2.1% of the US population has been infected. It's pretty clear (and has been mentioned multiple times in this thread already) that amongst other things, your government has learned from previous events, and decided to implement regulations without a need for political red-tape, unlike the US.

Once again, exactly what is the argument you're trying to make?



I believe you missed @mustafur using Portugal as a pretty good example of what effective decriminalization looks like, and its effects.

She learned nothing from the past clearly.Yes I am blaming them. Mrs Tam who sits on the WHO board recommended not to wear masks. Assuming she actually new what the affects of not wearing a mask meant? Yeah I got ya.

 

[Tornado]

Guys, Portugal to USA isn’t a valid comparison, and since the video I posted hasn’t been watched there’s no reason I should look at the links etc.

It takes you an hour to look at one internet link? You should switch ISPs.

 

[GranTurNismo]

I suggest you watch the video, you wouldn’t make an ignorant statement like that if you had.
Less than 25 mg heroin is not PROSECUTED, technically illegal but allowed since no prosecution.
You haven’t watched it, I know that for a fact, now.
If you haven’t watched just don’t comment further, it’s almost like you’re just making stuff up, or typing out a scripted narrative...
Smh

Just because a drug might not be prosecuted to the extent that it supposedly should be doesn't make it legal.

I'll say it again, I have watched the video. I may not remember every single nuance of it, but that doesn't mean I haven't watched it. It has over 8 million views and would likely appear in your Recommended list if you watch political YouTube videos so I doubt I'm the only one who's watched it here. Me not agreeing with your takeaways from the video is not "proof" that I haven't watched it and that I'm just mindlessly making stuff up. Besides, why would someone compulsively lie about that, on a video game forum no less?

My example is from right here in USA and it shows what happens HERE when heroin use methamphetamine use are effectively legalized by failure to prosecute and rehab.

Again, that doesn't equate to legalization. In many areas of the country drug possession offenses are overly and unfairly prosecuted actually.

Libertarianism is a failed ideology because it’s a fundamental misunderstanding of humanity, It’s much like Communism in that respect.

Heh.

 

[mustafur]

Guys, Portugal to USA isn’t a valid comparison, and since the video I posted hasn’t been watched there’s no reason I should look at the links etc.

1. I have seen the video in full over a year ago but why does it matter?

2. How is Portugal not a Valid comparison? You literally said it would make the drug problem worse yet I provided an actual case involving a Western first world country that practically solved their issue by Decriminalizing it all and focused more on treatment then punishment.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

If you're trying to blame the current Canadian administration for their COVID response, keep in mind that Canada (as of 7PM Sep 19) has had "only" ~143,000 total confirmed cases, with less than 10,000 fatalities. That's a fraction compared to the nearly ~7 million confirmed cases and nearly ~200,000 deaths the US is currently having to contend with. To put it another way, ~0.4% of your population has been infected, while ~2.1% of the US population has been infected. It's pretty clear (and has been mentioned multiple times in this thread already) that amongst other things, your government has learned from previous events, and decided to implement regulations without a need for political red-tape, unlike the US.

According to the numbers you posted, the US has a death rate of just under 3%, while Canada has a death rate of nearly 7%. How is that free healthcare working out?

But this is not really my point.

 

[mustafur]

According to the numbers you posted, the US has a death rate of just under 3%, while Canada has a death rate of nearly 7%. How is that free healthcare working out?

America literally has a worse death rate then India, do you honestly think it comes down to simple buzz words?

 

[Chrunch Houston]

America literally has a worse death rate then India, do you honestly think it comes down to simple buzz words?

What buzz words? Death rate?

 

[mustafur]

America has the worst recovery rate in the world when it comes to Covid-19 at current, the death rate is low but the actual number of people that haven't yet recovered is over 2 million, if anything that says everything you need to know about your healthcare system.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

 

[GranTurNismo]

Think Hillary’s blatant, cringe worthy pandering to African Americans by claiming to carry hot sauce with her everywhere she goes is bad enough? Here’s this. Biden playing and dancing to Despacito from his iPhone at a rally for Hispanic/Latinx voters:



Yet they wonder why Biden is polling so poorly with Hispanics/Latinx voters. While Bernie (who polled better with them than any other candidate) showed up to their communities and promised to aid their struggles by implementing free healthcare and more investment into their communities, Biden’s doing nothing but making symbolic gestures. When your campaign has no principles nor substantive policies for minority communities, all that's left to do is pander. Quite sad.

 

[Groundfish]

Portugal-drugs illegal.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/vancou...wcm/d4e049f8-c1c4-4a4c-805c-b7b4d4eb3b51/amp/

From the interview with drug czar of Portugal:
“If you decriminalize and do nothing else, things will get worse”
(Seattle)
If you get caught and refuse treatment you can be fined, and your possessions can be sold.
Drugs are still illegal there, according to the article.
Tell me again how great Seattle is doing, because it’s very different from Portugal.

 

[UKMikey]

Portugal-drugs illegal.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/vancou...wcm/d4e049f8-c1c4-4a4c-805c-b7b4d4eb3b51/amp/

From the interview with drug czar of Portugal:
“If you decriminalize and do nothing else, things will get worse”
(Seattle)
If you get caught and refuse treatment you can be fined, and your possessions can be sold.
Drugs are still illegal there, according to the article.
Tell me again how great Seattle is doing, because it’s very different from Portugal.

I'm not sure what your point is. I don't think anyone said Portugal was legalising drugs. Just that treating it as a health issue instead of a purely criminal issue made for more effective rehabilitation.

 

[NotThePrez]

Guys, Portugal to USA isn’t a valid comparison,...

You were given an entire 1st-world Western country. A country that enacted these regulations (as well as measures to better educate their population, have better resources for rehabilitation, created an effort to collect used syringes, and actively chose not incarcerate every fool with a baggie on them) because they had one of (if not the) highest HIV/AIDS rates in the EU, which they realized was greatly influenced by syringe users.

And that's not a valid comparison? 🤬 outta here.

and since the video I posted hasn’t been watched there’s no reason I should look at the links etc.

Probably nobody wants to watch a goddamn hour-long video in hopes of finding some breadcrumbs that you leave behind. It's been asked of you many times already: Stop plopping down some video/study/whatever down on people and expect that to make your argument for you, while providing 0 context. Specifically point out the portions that are most relevant to your argument. If the argument in the video is that strong, than it should be easy for you to point out the important bits.

The problem with the Libertarian position...

Not a single soul has mentioned Libertarianism except for you.

My example is from right here in USA and it shows what happens HERE when heroin use methamphetamine use are effectively legalized by failure to prosecute and rehab.

De-criminilization =/= full legalization, or even "effective" legalization for that matter. Hell, even in the supposedly invalid country of Portugal, if you're busted with a baggie of weed you're still fined, the police just decide not to put you in cuffs. It's still very much illegal, but not to the point of ruining ones life. And that covers all drugs, yet the rate of overdose death or otherwise is fairly low in Portugal (which you would already know if you clicked on the article I linked).

Yes I am blaming them.

Well, I'll be damned. That has to be the biggest leap in a blame-game I've ever witnessed.

Mrs Tam who sits on the WHO board recommended not to wear masks. Assuming she actually new what the affects of not wearing a mask meant? Yeah I got ya.

Well, if anything it's pretty clear that relatively few individuals took her initial recommendation to heart. Also, it appears that Mrs. Tam changed her mind on that topic not too long ago.

According to the numbers you posted, the US has a death rate of just under 3%, while Canada has a death rate of nearly 7%.

While still being miles behind in number of cases, number of deaths, ratio of infected:death from COVID, and rate of new cases. The death rate is unfortunate, but also doesn't tell the whole story.

How is that free healthcare working out?

Nobody brought that up....?

But this is not really my point.

Then what is?

Portugal-drugs illegal.

Drugs are still illegal there, according to the article.

See above.

 

[Groundfish]

ctively chose not incarcerate every fool with a baggie on them)

No, not incarcerate, just arrest, and if they refuse treatment they must pay the fine, if they cannot, their possessions get taken.
Totally different from Seattle-which is USA, which it’s why it’s an invalid comparison.

 

[sturk0167]

America has the worst recovery rate in the world when it comes to Covid-19 at current, the death rate is low but the actual number of people that haven't yet recovered is over 2 million, if anything that says everything you need to know about your healthcare system.

It doesn't say anything about our healthcare system.. People here, just do whatever the hell they feel like doing. Not sure they can be reined in.
I know this thread is titled "America", but why are folks here just constantly trashing the country?
Why don't you clean up your own backyard? Australia is no Utopia.
Expect people to get defensive, when other people are constantly talking about how terrible their home team is.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

In the US they will test anyone, with or without symptoms. The mayor of Houston, (the fourth largest city in the US) was on TV a couple of weeks ago asking for everyone to get tested regardless of symptoms.

We are testing more so we are getting more positive results.

Is the Canadian health care system so bad that they can only save 93% of those infected with the virus? Of course not. So obviously they have many more people that are infected than their numbers reflect.

My point is that total cases is not a good way to measure anything about this virus.

 

[polysmut]

My point is that total cases is not a good way to measure anything about this virus.

Unless you want to know how many cases there are in total.

 

[Biggles]

In the US they will test anyone, with or without symptoms. The mayor of Houston, (the fourth largest city in the US) was on TV a couple of weeks ago asking for everyone to get tested regardless of symptoms.

We are testing more so we are getting more positive results.

Is the Canadian health care system so bad that they can only save 93% of those infected with the virus? Of course not. So obviously they have many more people that are infected than their numbers reflect.

My point is that total cases is not a good way to measure anything about this virus.

You're right. There are a lot of different factors to take into account in order to make meaningful comparisons & the death rate may be a more reasonable comparison.

It seems that both Canada & the US were affected in a very similar way in the first months. In March, April & May there were a lot of deaths in the large cities & they were mostly elderly people, many of them in nursing homes. Once those initial infections worked their way through, the death rate fell dramatically in Canada & has stayed low. In the US they barely dropped at all during the same period & then started to go up again in July.

As it stands the US death rate per capita is about 2.5 times what it is in Canada. The death rate/cases in the US stands at 5%, in Canada it stands at 7%. It's possible that the testing rates may play a factor, but I strongly suspect it has more to do with when the deaths occurred - in Canada they were predominantly in the "first wave" which affected mostly older, very vulnerable people. The US also had many deaths in that period, but unlike Canada the deaths continued to mount up ... but as the infections increasingly hit younger less vulnerable individuals & treatment improved, the survival rate went up.

The biggest, most obvious difference between the US & Canada? Trump. In Canada Covid has not been politicized. There has been cooperation between all levels of government, even when those governments represented different political parties. The Prime Minister & the provincial Premiers have not pushed a political agenda & have allowed the health experts to take the lead in addressing the pandemic. Trump referring to the pandemic as a "hoax", claiming it would "disappear", advocating for hydroxychloroquine as a treatment, refusing to advocate for face masks, publicly undermining his own health experts - all these things have created doubt & confusion in the general population, particularly among his own supporters. As a result, Covid has demonstrably been less under control in the US than any other leading developed country.

 

[Joey D]

In the US they will test anyone, with or without symptoms. T

This is not strictly true across the board. It largely varies by state and, in some cases, even varies by city or health system. I have friends who work in health systems across the country, pretty much everyone's health system is doing things differently from everyone else's health system. Even here in Salt Lake, the two major health systems have different criteria to who can get a test. Where I work, pretty much anyone can get a test if it's been at least 14 days since your previous one. At the other major system, you need to have at least one symptom and no one else in your home can have tested positive.

We are testing more so we are getting more positive results.

Despite what Trump is trying to sell this isn't true outside a handful of areas. You can fact check it yourself if you'd like by using the data presented via The COVID Tracking Project.

My point is that total cases is not a good way to measure anything about this virus.

Correct, total cases aren't the best way to measure anything about COVID other than how many cases a country has. To compare countries, the best thing to do is compare cases per one million people (or 100,000 or whatever). Since we were talking about Canada, currently Canada has a positive case rate of 3,782 per million whereas the US has a confirmed case rate of 20,437 per million.

The mortality rate doesn't mean a whole bunch since there are a ton of factors that play into this. You'd have to consider the overall health of a population, as well as the population's age to get an idea if the mortality rate is good or bad. A country with an older, largely unhealthy population will have a higher fatality rate than a country with a younger, healthier population.

 

[sturk0167]

You're right. There are a lot of different factors to take into account in order to make meaningful comparisons & the death rate may be a more reasonable comparison.

It seems that both Canada & the US were affected in a very similar way in the first months. In March, April & May there were a lot of deaths in the large cities & they were mostly elderly people, many of them in nursing homes. Once those initial infections worked their way through, the death rate fell dramatically in Canada & has stayed low. In the US they barely dropped at all during the same period & then started to go up again in July.

As it stands the US death rate per capita is about 2.5 times what it is in Canada. The death rate/cases in the US stands at 5%, in Canada it stands at 7%. It's possible that the testing rates may play a factor, but I strongly suspect it has more to do with when the deaths occurred - in Canada they were predominantly in the "first wave" which affected mostly older, very vulnerable people. The US also had many deaths in that period, but unlike Canada the deaths continued to mount up ... but as the infections increasingly hit younger less vulnerable individuals & treatment improved, the survival rate went up.

The biggest, most obvious difference between the US & Canada? Trump. In Canada Covid has not been politicized. There has been cooperation between all levels of government, even when those governments represented different political parties. The Prime Minister & the provincial Premiers have not pushed a political agenda & have allowed the health experts to take the lead in addressing the pandemic. Trump referring to the pandemic as a "hoax", claiming it would "disappear", advocating for hydroxychloroquine as a treatment, refusing to advocate for face masks, publicly undermining his own health experts - all these things have created doubt & confusion in the general population, particularly among his own supporters. As a result, Covid has demonstrably been less under control in the US than any other leading developed country.

Oh well. Screw it. Survival of the fittest. 👍

 

[killerjimbag]

Hold up, are you trying to blame the current Canadian government for an event that happened 17 years ago? Because the article you linked clearly stated that SARSstock happened in 2003.

If you're trying to blame the current Canadian administration for their COVID response, keep in mind that Canada (as of 7PM Sep 19) has had "only" ~143,000 total confirmed cases, with less than 10,000 fatalities. That's a fraction compared to the nearly ~7 million confirmed cases and nearly ~200,000 deaths the US is currently having to contend with. To put it another way, ~0.4% of your population has been infected, while ~2.1% of the US population has been infected. It's pretty clear (and has been mentioned multiple times in this thread already) that amongst other things, your government has learned from previous events, and decided to implement regulations without a need for political red-tape, unlike the US.

Once again, exactly what is the argument you're trying to make?



I believe you missed @mustafur using Portugal as a pretty good example of what effective decriminalization looks like, and its effects.

So let me understand this. Our medical officer of health,Mrs Tam who sits on the WHO board thought it was a good idea not to wear masks. So that "mistake" cost how many lives? Stop. Dropping the ball,is still dropping the ball.

 

[Biggles]

So let me understand this. Our medical officer of health,Mrs Tam who sits on the WHO board thought it was a good idea not to wear masks. So that "mistake" cost how many lives? Stop. Dropping the ball,is still dropping the ball.

Stop repeating the same nonsense. Dr. Tam (she's not a Mrs.) may have been uncertain about whether to recommend masks in March partly because ... again ... THERE WAS A SHORTAGE OF MASKS AVAILABLE FOR HEALTHCARE PROFESSIONALS AT THE TIME. What part of that don't you understand? She reversed her position shortly after that, based on new research that became available, & masks have been recommended or mandated in Canada since that time.

 

[FerrariF1GT]

Think Hillary’s blatant, cringe worthy pandering to African Americans by claiming to carry hot sauce with her everywhere she goes is bad enough? Here’s this. Biden playing and dancing to Despacito from his iPhone at a rally for Hispanic/Latinx voters:



Yet they wonder why Biden is polling so poorly with Hispanics/Latinx voters. While Bernie (who polled better with them than any other candidate) showed up to their communities and promised to aid their struggles by implementing free healthcare and more investment into their communities, Biden’s doing nothing but making symbolic gestures. When your campaign has no principles nor substantive policies for minority communities, all that's left to do is pander. Quite sad.

I don’t support Biden and don’t plan to vote for him (I’m a Jorgensen supporter for the most part, I don’t want to come across as supporting Trump), but I need to vent a bit over this:

Luis Fonsi introduced Biden at that rally, so playing Despacito was quite fitting for the occasion.

I think it’s great that Biden shows a less serious side of him by dancing to one of the most popular reggaeton songs out there. Yes, he’s trying to appeal to his audience (or pandering); it’s what politicians have to do if they want votes. I’d wager that Bernie ‘pandered’ a bit as well. Besides, the president can’t magically give everyone free health care and reparations, which was precisely what Bernie promised to do - note ‘magically.’

And I have to disagree with Bernie polling better among Hispanics/Latinos than the others. In general they are more socially right-wing than you might think - many are Catholic and/or family-oriented and are proud of what they have earned. I’m willing to bet that they’d go Republican if that party wasn’t openly against expanding their rights (though let’s be honest, both parties don’t have a good track record when it comes to rights). And I’ll never forget the time when Bernie praised Fidel Castro at that one debate. Praising communist dictators is bad enough (as is praising fascist ones, just for clarity’s sake), but praising Castro is a sure-fire way to lose support among Floridians (guess what, Biden’s rally was in Florida!) and the Cuban-Americans there.

This post was by an undergrad poli-sci student. Take this with a grain of sand.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

Since we were talking about Canada, currently Canada has a positive case rate of 3,782 per million whereas the US has a confirmed case rate of 20,437 per million.

So you believe these numbers? If you do, then you believe that a Canadian that gets covid is more than twice as likely to die as someone from the US.

Do you believe that? Really?

 

[Joey D]

So you believe these numbers? If you do, then you believe that a Canadian that gets covid is more than twice as likely to die as someone from the US.

Do you believe that? Really?

I don't know since I don't know all the health factors of Canada's population. They very well could have a population where you are twice as likely to die. I also don't know the Canadian health system and how they code deaths, which can play a huge factor into what the mortality rate in a certain country is. There's a whole bunch of other factors I don't know either, such as what is the age range of people dying from COVID in Canada and what percentage of the population is in that age range?

I don't really look at too much data from other countries since my job revolves around me look at data from the US and from Utah.

 

[ryzno]

THERE WAS A SHORTAGE OF MASKS AVAILABLE FOR HEALTHCARE PROFESSIONALS AT THE TIME.

How ironic, we had the same problem. Let me guess? It's Trumps fault...
I'm not saying it was Trumps order but I do recall hearing stories of smaller businesses having their supplies of masks and gloves siezed for the medical industry.
Please don't ask for a link, I'll say again, I heard...

 

[Joey D]

Let me guess? It's Trumps fault...

Kind of, but the Obama administration shares the blame as well. Our Strategic National Stockpile for medical devices was hit heavy during the 2009-2010 H1N1 outbreak and wasn't fully restocked for a myriad of reasons, mainly lack of funding. Trump would've known this when he took office and chose not to push for funding to restock it either. So a problem created during Obama's administration wasn't rectified in the Trump administration, which lead to a shortage of various equipment, mainly N95 respirators.

Also, because this is the government we're dealing with here, their distribution and supply chain was and still is awful.

FEMA also contributed to the shortage by essentially outbidding health systems and states for medical supplies. They distributed where they saw fit, leaving some states actively smuggling in resources and transporting goods to storage areas under armed guards. FEMA denies this, but there's more than one story from state officials that say the feds we commendering supplies.

I absolutely believe you when you say some businesses were ransacked too. While I'm not sure there's any hard evidence to say this happened, if the feds were willing to take supplies from states, then it's not out of the realm of possibilities they were taking from businesses either.

We were short on proper PPE equipment for months at my work despite despriately trying to obtain it. Now, things are still a little tight and there's not a huge reserve, but we're not at a critically low level any more.

 

[NotThePrez]

No, not incarcerate, just arrest, and if they refuse treatment they must pay the fine,...

Or perform community service, or perform whatever service/penalty Commission for the Dissuasion of Drug Addiction sees fit...which is mentioned in the article you linked. If you're caught with more than 10 days worth of drugs, then you might be hit with a trafficking charge and face jail time.

if they cannot, their possessions get taken.

There is a possibility of getting their possessions taken. Whatever's taken is usually sold in order to pay the fine...which is also mentioned in the article you've linked.

Also, your article reinforces what I and @GranTurNismo said earlier, which is that decriminalization =/= full (or "effective") legality, and that fixing drug addiction is a social issue that requires long-term commitment from the nation as a whole, not one that can be solved by sending people to jail. Your article also mentions that these measures have also assisted the Portuguese economy, because since people are dying less and less to overdose, the country doesn't have to put as much cash into medical expenses for addicts. These all sound like pretty baller benefits that the US should look into, and sounds like things that could be pretty useful in Seattle. I have a feeling, though, that a right-wing government wouldn't be too keen on implementing such policies.

Why do I get the feeling I read the article that you linked to supposedly support your claims more than you have? Because unless I'm missing something, your article pretty much agrees with me, and shows that there are potential methods to fighting drug addiction that don't require incarceration or revolve around busting people for petty possession.

Of course, drug addiction is just one of the multitude of problems that face Seattle's homeless (again, as @GranTurNismo outlined earlier) and the necessary methods to fix those issues are also ones I have a hard time seeing the right-wing government you're advocating for implementing.

It doesn't say anything about our healthcare system.. People here, just do whatever the hell they feel like doing. Not sure they can be reined in.

I fail to see how that's an adequate excuse for...anything, really. Yeah, people are gonna do as they please, and as such are responsible for the consequences of their actions. But it sounds like you're trying to use that as an excuse to not look around the proverbial room and be aware of what is/was happening around us.

In regards to COVID, we were watching the world pretty much burn to the ground around us, and anybody with an ounce of common sense could tell that it would find its way here sooner rather than later. I'm not saying our government could've totally prevented cases and/or deaths, because that would've been impossible. But they absolutely dropped the ball on creating an adequate response in a timely manner, none of which was helped by Trump's conscience decision to downplay the virus and turn vital health and safety protocols into a political issue.

I know this thread is titled "America", but why are folks here just constantly trashing the country?

So acknowledging and discussing the shortcomings of our country = trashing it now? I can't help but wonder if you're one of those folks who thinks that other Americans who are critical of our country should just move somewhere else.

At the risk of sounding preachy, there is no such thing as perfection, and the USA is not an exception to that, especially right now. Acknowledging both our strengths and our shortcomings is acknowledging reality, and making an effort to better educate ourselves on our shortcomings (and being critical of them) creates a more informed individual, which (hopefully) spreads out into a more informed community/city/country/whathaveyou. That "education" (for lack of a better term) can translate to the polls, which is where real change can happen and be observed.

At least, that's how I see it. The quote in my signature is also a decent part of my overall "philosophy."

Personally speaking, I do think I have a pretty good life as an American, and am pretty happy to call myself one, even as a Black American. But I also know that our country has the potential to do a lot better than it is right now, and is annoyingly hesitant when it comes to admitting when it gets something wrong. I'm of the opinion that calling out your nations shortcomings, and not pretending everything is hunky-dory, is in itself patriotic, because it shows that you actually care about the current state of affairs.

*Steps off of soapbox*

Why don't you clean up your own backyard? Australia is no Utopia.

Deflection.

Also, this is effectively an international forum, and as such people from all over can and have every right (as outlined by Jordan & the mods) to partake in the discussion.

Expect people to get defensive, when other people are constantly talking about how terrible their team is.

Which would be understandable if someone is talking 🤬 for the sake of talking 🤬. If the "other side" is bringing up legitimate arguments, and one gets defensive over said arguments, than the problem isn't the other side (or at least, isn't squarely the other side).

So let me understand this. Our medical officer of health,Mrs Tam who sits on the WHO board thought it was a good idea not to wear masks. So that "mistake" cost how many lives?

I never excused her for her initial comments. From what I could tell, her reasoning for not recommending masks in January was that the science at the time did not support the need to recommend masks to the general public. By April, she had changed her stance. Was it a stupid thing to say? Honestly, yeah. But I can at least get an idea for what she was thinking at the time, and it's not a 100% unreasonable train of thought. And based on the information I have available to me, it seems like not too many individuals took her words to heart. Now, if she continued to claim nobody needs masks, just like how our president is continuing to undersell the virus, then I'd be inclined to agree with you.

Also, while I'm not familiar with how terms work for elected officials in Canada, assuming Canada's government functions even remotely similar to the US's, I still fail to see how you can blame the current administration for an event that happened in 2003. Pretty much nobody who was in power then is likely to be in a significant position of power now.

Stop. Dropping the ball,is still dropping the ball.

I'm gonna be honest here, between your posts here, your posts in the "Where's the Outrage thread," and just your generally combative posting style, at this point I feel like you're going out of your way to find reasons to be mad anything, logic and nuance be damned.