America - The Official Thread

[sturk0167]

With the BLM protests though, Trump does share some blame there since he's continuing to stoke the fires and divide the country instead of addressing the issue.

Beyond ridiculous.
The way you respond to a person or a situation is on you (and probably your parents/teachers/pc culture).
I don't hear many people blaming Abe Lincoln for the Civil War, even though he could've averted conflict by not stoking the fires and dividing the country with his anti-slavery position, when the Southerners started getting upset.

And with COVID, Trump is absolutely the reason America is in bad shape right now.

C'mon. Really?
Ok, here's some real info. Countries with the most foreign travel:
-France
-Spain
-United States
-China
-Italy
Covid has been really bad in all of those places. How did Trump screw up the other 4 countries?

There's also some evidence that suggests the virus didn't originate in China at all and could've originated in Brazil.

Doubt it. And, by the way, who cares?
Also, it's a waste of time to even say something like some evidence suggests that something could've been.
You could say that about anything, but you're not really saying anything.
There's some evidence suggesting that the Cincinnati Bengals could win the Super Bowl.

 

[Biggles]

C'mon. Really?
Ok, here's some real info. Countries with the most foreign travel:
-France
-Spain
-United States
-China
-Italy
Covid has been really bad in all of those places. How did Trump screw up the other 4 countries?

C'mon. Really?
China was (most likely) where Covid originated. They did a bad job initially of recognizing the problem but then were able to clamp down on the spread as they are an authoritarian country. Cases & deaths in China per capita are way, way lower than in the US. Italy was very badly effected because of (most likely) Chinese visitors & the intergenerational family life of Italians. It was hit before anyone had a clear idea of the extent of the danger. Similarly with Spain.

The US had ample warning of the threat posed by Covid by looking at what was occurring in Italy & Spain, but failed to act decisively due largely to Trump's lack of leadership & his actively injecting politics into what was a health emergency. In that, the similarities with Brazil are obvious. The most comparable country to the US is Canada. Similar distribution of population between rural, urban & suburban areas. In Canada there has been no politicization of Covid, with cooperation between all levels of government & all political parties. Although Canada was hit hard in the first weeks of the pandemic, since then levels of infection & deaths per capita have been way lower than in the US.

It seems pretty clear that ALL countries are being hit by a second wave of Covid. Even those that significantly reduced cases & mortality after the initial wave. The US did a much worse job of containing Covid & the continuing chaotic, politically motivated response of the Trump administration seems guaranteed to result in further elevated cases & mortality in the US.

 

[Joey D]

I don't hear many people blaming Abe Lincoln for the Civil War, even though he could've averted conflict by not stoking the fires and dividing the country with his anti-slavery position, when the Southerners started getting upset.

The south blames the Civil War on Lincoln, this is seen in the period booklet Confederate Catechism.

Here's an article concerning it since I don't expect anyone to read the actual booklet.

C'mon. Really?
Ok, here's some real info. Countries with the most foreign travel:
-France
-Spain
-United States
-China
-Italy
Covid has been really bad in all of those places. How did Trump screw up the other 4 countries?

I didn't say Trump screwed up any other countries, I said he screwed up America and holds much of the blame as to why the US is doing so poorly at the moment. If you look at cases across the world, America has the most along with the most deaths. I can't speak for other countries since I don't know enough about their response to say one way or they other.

Doubt it. And, by the way, who cares?
Also, it's a waste of time to even say something like some evidence suggests that something could've been.

Many people care and pinpointing where the virus originated can provider context for researchers. If it originated in Brazil and originated there sometime last summer, it would help us get a better understanding of how many people might've had it. It would also help us determine what sort of mutations occurred along the way, which would also help with research. If we could also pinpoint the zoological origin of the virus, that would help as well.

And when I say evidence exists, I mean there are actual academic studies out there that provide evidence of COVID originating elsewhere. And I say "suggests" because it would not be factual to say "COVID originated in X country" since no one knows for sure and there's ongoing study.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

So Twitter is kind of weird today.

The Democrats are retweeting Republicans from 2016. #LetThePeopleDeside

The Republicans are retweeting the Democrats from 2016. #DoYourJob

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

So Twitter is kind of weird today.

The Democrats are retweeting Republicans from 2016. #LetThePeopleDeside

The Republicans are retweeting the Democrats from 2016. #DoYourJob

The only slogan that really matters is "win by whatever means necessary"

 

[Lain]

So Twitter is kind of weird today.

The Democrats are retweeting Republicans from 2016. #LetThePeopleDeside

The Republicans are retweeting the Democrats from 2016. #DoYourJob

Republicans are the ones moving the goalposts though, they're the ones who played dirty in 2016 and they're the ones intent on playing dirty now.

Democrats are just trying to keep up with where they thought the goalposts were based on the Republicans' blatant lies.

 

[GranTurNismo]

So Twitter is kind of weird today.

The Democrats are retweeting Republicans from 2016. #LetThePeopleDeside

The Republicans are retweeting the Democrats from 2016. #DoYourJob

Honest question. What is your opinion of Mitch McConnell?

 

[sturk0167]

Republicans are the ones moving the goalposts though, they're the ones who played dirty in 2016

 

[sturk0167]

The south blames the Civil War on Lincoln, this is seen in the period booklet Confederate Catechism.

Oh, ok. Should he have just left slavery alone, then? Of course nobody will say yes. Sometimes people just aren't gonna like stuff. Evenetually the people who loot and burn buildings and break things will realize that it's all counterproductive, and hurting their cause.

I didn't say Trump screwed up any other countries, I said he screwed up America and holds much of the blame as to why the US is doing so poorly at the moment.

Yeah, I know. But if he's to blame for the virus problems here, than the 11 countries with a higher per capita rate of infection that the US, must have leaders that screwed up way worse than Trump. What were their big screw ups?
That was rhetorical. It's just disingenuous to blame a single person for worldwide virus. It isn't realistic. We aren't communist. We can't control the behavior of 300+ million Americans.

Cases & deaths in China per capita are way, way lower than in the US.

Yeah, right. Who, in their right mind would believe anything they say.

The US had ample warning of the threat posed by Covid by looking at what was occurring in Italy & Spain, but failed to act decisively due largely to Trump's lack of leadership

So he could've lead us away from the virus? This has never happened. Nobody really knew what to do. I can't believe any one person would be expected to have all the answers. If you have the answer, maybe you should be president.
No matter what, the half of the population who hates him would never do what he says, anyway. The media will always say he did the wrong thing, and if you only listen to the MSM, you will believe it, too.

The most comparable country to the US is Canada.

Only in square mileage. Not really comparable by many other measures.

The US did a much worse job of containing Covid

And how do you do that, when it's something brand new that nobody even really knows what the heck it is? The previous 44 US presidents did nothing about Covid-19. Obama never mentioned it.
Sure, some things could have been done differently, but nobody was really sure.

 

[killerjimbag]

C'mon. Really?
China was (most likely) where Covid originated. They did a bad job initially of recognizing the problem but then were able to clamp down on the spread as they are an authoritarian country. Cases & deaths in China per capita are way, way lower than in the US. Italy was very badly effected because of (most likely) Chinese visitors & the intergenerational family life of Italians. It was hit before anyone had a clear idea of the extent of the danger. Similarly with Spain.

The US had ample warning of the threat posed by Covid by looking at what was occurring in Italy & Spain, but failed to act decisively due largely to Trump's lack of leadership & his actively injecting politics into what was a health emergency. In that, the similarities with Brazil are obvious. The most comparable country to the US is Canada. Similar distribution of population between rural, urban & suburban areas. In Canada there has been no politicization of Covid, with cooperation between all levels of government & all political parties. Although Canada was hit hard in the first weeks of the pandemic, since then levels of infection & deaths per capita have been way lower than in the US.

It seems pretty clear that ALL countries are being hit by a second wave of Covid. Even those that significantly reduced cases & mortality after the initial wave. The US did a much worse job of containing Covid & the continuing chaotic, politically motivated response of the Trump administration seems guaranteed to result in further elevated cases & mortality in the US.

Were do you live? Your kidding right? Get your head out of the 🤬 sand! Did you actually type this?

"The most comparable country to the US is Canada".

So the Canadian "Liberal" government who has a Medical Officer of Health who sits on the WHO board and said we don't need to wear masks? Remember that or should I google Mrs Tam saying that for you? https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1717905987907
That Country? That "Liberal"government? Who knew in January from a report from the military. https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5528381
Stop throwing stones at your glass house,it's getting cool up here. Just some clarity, read up.
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5147761

 

[Lain]

Excellent point, you've really enlightened me to the error of my ways.

 

[huskeR32]

They’re right.

Oh, ok. should he have just left slavery alone, then?

That would be a question for the south, who despite your claims, did blame Lincoln for the war, rather than Joey, who didn’t even come close to saying that.

This is one of the more absurd strawmen I’ve seen in a while.

It's just disingenuous to blame a single person for worldwide virus.

He didn’t. He blamed him for the virus situation in the US. It was quite clear.

This post of yours is one of the more dishonest I think I’ve ever seen.

Why didn’t you address Joey’s third main point to you? The part about Brazil?

 

[sturk0167]

Excellent point, you've really enlightened me to the error of my ways.

Darn. I wasn't really interested in doing that. I was hoping you'd keep on with your silly things.

 

[sturk0167]

Uh, ok. Let's go.

They’re right.

That would be a question for the south, who despite your claims, did blame Lincoln for the war, rather than Joey, who didn’t even come close to saying that.

This is one of the more absurd strawmen I’ve seen in a while.

That's terrific, but of course I know Joey didn't say that. It was meant as a simile. A whole bunch of people disagreed with President Lincoln, and probably hated him very much, but they are clearly on the wrong side of history. Try to keep up.
If you have a good argument for why looting, vandalism, arson, and assault are are the fault of the president (who has repeatedly condemned all idiotic nonsense), I'll listen to that.

He didn’t. He blamed him for the virus situation in the US. It was quite clear.


This post of yours is one of the more dishonest I think I’ve ever seen.

Why didn’t you address Joey’s third main point to you? The part about Brazil?

Yeah, it was clear that he was blaming him for the virus situation in the US. I got that. What I guess wasn't clear was that I was wondering how horrible the presidents are in the 11 other countries with a higher rate of infection (who all have a lower rate of international travel than then US), at controlling a virus. They must be so much more hated than this man who doomed our country.
Should Trump be blamed for a door ding you get at a grocery store parking lot, because he never mentioned the danger of that?
Everyone's responsible for themselves. Blaming him for Covid is 100% political.

No need to talk anymore about the Brazil thing. Joey said there are no facts to support a Brazil origination argument.

 

[Scaff]

So he could've lead us away from the virus? This has never happened. Nobody really knew what to do. I can't believe any one person would be expected to have all the answers. If you have the answer, maybe you should be president.

New Zealand says hi...

 

[UKMikey]

I think this is what @Lain means by "playing dirty":

On March 16, 2016, President Barack Obama nominated Garland to serve as an Associate Justice of the Supreme Court to fill the vacancy created by the death of Antonin Scalia. The Senate refused to hold a hearing or vote on this nomination made during the last year of Obama's presidency, with the Republican majority insisting that the next elected president should fill the vacancy. Senate Republicans' unprecedented refusal to consider the nomination was considered highly controversial. Garland's nomination lasted 293 days and expired on January 3, 2017, at the end of the 114th Congress. The seat Garland was nominated for was eventually filled by Neil Gorsuch, appointed by President Donald Trump.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merrick_Garland

I'm not sure what Hillary's career as a defence lawyer has to do with this, nor am I sure calling a girl fat is the worst thing Donald Trump has said about women. Not that that has anything to do with the appointment of Supreme Court judges, either.

 

[Joey D]

Oh, ok. Should he have just left slavery alone, then? Of course nobody will say yes. Sometimes people just aren't gonna like stuff. Evenetually the people who loot and burn buildings and break things will realize that it's all counterproductive, and hurting their cause.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here, to be honest.

Yeah, I know. But if he's to blame for the virus problems here, than the 11 countries with a higher per capita rate of infection that the US, must have leaders that screwed up way worse than Trump. What were their big screw ups?
That was rhetorical. It's just disingenuous to blame a single person for worldwide virus. It isn't realistic. We aren't communist. We can't control the behavior of 300+ million Americans.

I don't know enough about what happened in those other countries to say if they had ineffective leadership or not.

What I do know is what is going on here in America. I'm not blaming Trump for the virus either, I'm blaming him for out of control it got in the US. Between downplaying the severity of COVID and turning it into a political issue, he enabled millions of Americans to think COVID was nothing to worry about. Yes, people are ultimately responsible for their own actions, but the number of people that hang on every word Trump utters is far to high for him to be saying asinine things. He's also mounted a campaign to make people doubt medical experts, which is also not helpful.

What he should've done is to let medical experts and scientists lead the way on how to handle the virus. He should've kept politics out of it until the idea of a stimulus was brought up since that's actually something that should be political. If he would've come out in March and said "this is serious, you need to stay home, you need to protect your community, and you need to take every precaution you can" it would've gone much further than insinuating that COVID's severity was somehow a hoax made up by the Democrats.

And yes, I'm fully aware you can't control 330 million people (that's not communism either), but you can at least make an effort not to divide them.

So he could've lead us away from the virus? This has never happened. Nobody really knew what to do. I can't believe any one person would be expected to have all the answers. If you have the answer, maybe you should be president.
No matter what, the half of the population who hates him would never do what he says, anyway. The media will always say he did the wrong thing, and if you only listen to the MSM, you will believe it, too.

We've had a pandemic in the 15 years that was handled very well with H1N1. The US knew what to do and the National Security Council actually has a written disaster plan on what to do. Trump and his administration didn't bother to read it and even before COVID was a thing, decided that we should probably just get rid of most of the team that keeps an eye on potential pandemics.

No need to talk anymore about the Brazil thing. Joey said there are no facts to support a Brazil origination argument.

There are actual academic studies out there about Brazil. It's not like there are zero facts. There's just no solid proof that COVID started in X country so we can't say for sure.

 

[sturk0167]

New Zealand says hi...

False equivalency
New Zealand has is an island nation, with 1/36th the area, and 1/68th the population of the US.
Prime Minister Ardern would likely be overwhelmed, to say the least, with trying to run this crazy country.

@Joey D
I respect that you're not just saying something like 🤬 you.
I usually just hang out in the daily race thread. I only came here to defend a friend, who had a disagreement with you.
It appears that this is liberal controlled territory.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

Honest question. What is your opinion of Mitch McConnell?

I grew up in Kentucky and most of my family still lives there.

I was skeptical of Mitch for a while, I never thought he would have the political guts to hold up the Garland nomination, but he did, and I was pleasantly surprised.

Trump has already said that he will be nominating someone. During the peaceful protest he led tonight in North Carolina, he said it will be a woman.

 

[Joey D]

@Joey D
I respect that you're not just saying something like 🤬 you.
I usually just hang out in the daily race thread. I only came here to defend a friend, who had a disagreement with you.
It appears that this is liberal controlled territory.

Saying something like that isn't productive. And while I can almost certainly guess who said they had a problem with me, I feel like if they do legitimately have an issue with me, then they can take it up with me.

Also, I'm about as far from a liberal as you can get.

I grew up in Kentucky and most of my family still lives there.

I was skeptical of Mitch for a while, I never thought he would have the political guts to hold up the Garland nomination, but he did, and I was pleasantly surprised.

Trump has already said that he will be nominating someone. During the peaceful protest he led tonight in North Carolina, he said it will be a woman.

Ah so you support blant hypocrisy then?

If it was too close to the election for Obama to nominate someone and that was what, 200 days before the election? Then it's certainly too close for Trump to nominate someone since we're something like 45 day from the election.

Whoever gets nominated though, I would hope they get put through the absolute wringer regarding their Constitutional beliefs. Trump love unconstitutional BS and I can see him nominating a judge who shares his same view, or rather lack of view, of the Constitution. I really don't care if a judge leans conservative or liberal, what I do care is that they don't allow their personal feelings to intrude on the law, particularly religion.

 

[sturk0167]

And while I can almost certainly guess who said they had a problem with me, I feel like if they do legitimately have an issue with me, then they can take it up with me.

That person never said anything. I stumble upon this thread, on occasion.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

Ah so you support blant hypocrisy then?

Well, that's a lie. Source? Proof? Who's blant? No.

If it was too close to the election for Obama to nominate someone and that was what, 200 days before the election? Then it's certainly too close for Trump to nominate someone since we're something like 45 day from the election.

These situations are not the same. Obama was a lame duck, Trump is not.

edit, just noticed the "?"

 

[Biggles]

Yeah, it was clear that he was blaming him for the virus situation in the US. I got that. What I guess wasn't clear was that I was wondering how horrible the presidents are in the 11 other countries with a higher rate of infection (who all have a lower rate of international travel than then US), at controlling a virus. They must be so much more hated than this man who doomed our country.

You're right, the US is in the same range as a group of Central & South American countries like Brazil, Peru & Chile. And some countries in the Middle East like Qatar, Bahrain & Kuwait. Quite possibly they all also have inept leadership (certainly we know a lot about what's been going on in Brazil, which has just overtaken the US in cases per capita). But the US has a much higher infection rate than any other comparable developed country including Italy & Spain which were on the front line of early infections. It's hard to see any justification for that other than the chaotic & irresponsible messaging coming out of the White House.

 

[Joey D]

Well, that's a lie. Source? Proof? Who's blant? No.

It's a question. And blatant, it appears that autocorrect got me on that one.

McConnell is a hypocrite though since he clearly said the following:

"The American people should have a voice in the selection of their next Supreme Court Justice,” during his released statement on Justice Antonin Scalia's death.

"The Senate will continue to observe the Biden Rule so that the American people have a voice in this momentous decision" during a speech on the Senate floor in 2016.

Being a lame duck should have nothing to do with it. If it's too close to the election for one president, then it's too close to the election for another.

Not that it really matters though, Congress can't do anything quickly and I think the average American would probably be irritated if they took up the Supreme Court judge while they're still twidling their thumbs regarding the stimulus.

 

[UKMikey]

These situations are not the same. Obama was a lame duck, Trump is not.

If he's not a lame duck, then why the rush to elect a replacement? Surely it'd be fairer to wait until his second term to do so? Unless... he's not sure he's going to win.

This sure looks like blant hypocrisy to me.

[EDIT] Apologies for the pile-on, it looks like I've been treed by @Joey.

 

[Lain]

Being a lame duck should have nothing to do with it. If it's too close to the election for one president, then it's too close to the election for another.

Right? If anything, it makes the situation worse... If "The People" want Trump's nominee, they have the option to re-elect him. And not re-electing Trump for another term (and thus rejecting his nominee) would be the people's choice as well, rather than merely being the default consequence of having served two terms already as was the case with Obama.

The excuse of "The People's Voice" that Republicans used to hold things up in 2016 is more valid here than it was back then.

 

[Biggles]

"The most comparable country to the US is Canada".

Which country would you consider more comparable to the US than Canada?

So the Canadian "Liberal" government who has a Medical Officer of Health who sits on the WHO board and said we don't need to wear masks? Remember that or should I google Mrs Tam saying that for you? https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1717905987907

Dr. Tam said that 6 months ago during a time when there was an acute shortage of masks for healthcare frontline workers (as she explains in the video you linked to). Shortly afterwards she reversed her opinion based in part on a report put out by Tom Inglesby, director of the Center for Health Security at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health—and an expert on pandemic preparedness, who commented:

"I think in all of these kinds of epidemics, people learn as they go. There have been many published trials that say, “Public mask use provides no benefit” or, at least, “We can’t find evidence of benefit.” And I think those things are all still true. But I think what we’ve learned over time, first of all, is how transmissible this virus is—and, second, that we’ve been getting more and more evidence of asymptomatic and presymptomatic transmission. So I think the balance has been shifting, in my view, in favor of trying to cover people’s mouths and noses, even those who have no signs of illness."

The bottom line is that Canada, while starting with a similar early infection rate as the US now stands at a rate 1/3 that of the US. A significant reason for that has been the lack of politicization of Covid & the fact that there has been a notable degree of cooperation from all levels of government, Conservative & Liberal.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

It's a question. And blatant, it appears that autocorrect got me on that one.

McConnell is a hypocrite though since he clearly said the following:

"The American people should have a voice in the selection of their next Supreme Court Justice,” during his released statement on Justice Antonin Scalia's death.

"The Senate will continue to observe the Biden Rule so that the American people have a voice in this momentous decision" during a speech on the Senate floor in 2016.

Being a lame duck should have nothing to do with it. If it's too close to the election for one president, then it's too close to the election for another.

Not that it really matters though, Congress can't do anything quickly and I think the average American would probably be irritated if they took up the Supreme Court judge while they're still twidling their thumbs regarding the stimulus.

If he's not a lame duck, then why the rush to elect a replacement? Surely it'd be fairer to wait until his second term to do so? Unless... he's not sure he's going to win.

This sure looks like blant hypocrisy to me.

[EDIT] Apologies for the pile-on, it looks like I've been treed by @Joey.

The President nominates and the Senate confirms Justices.

In 2016, Obama was on his way out.
In 2016, the Senate was controlled by the opposition party of the President.

In 2020, Trump is not on his way out.
In 2020, the Senate is controlled by the party of the President.

As someone famous once said, "elections have consequences".

 

[Lain]

In 2020, Trump is not on his way out.

Not by default, anyway.

 

[McLaren]

The President nominates and the Senate confirms Justices.

In 2016, Obama was on his way out.
In 2016, the Senate was controlled by the opposition party of the President.

In 2020, Trump is not on his way out.
In 2020, the Senate is controlled by the party of the President.

As someone famous once said, "elections have consequences".

You can attempt to play semantics all you want, McConnell & Graham set a rule beforehand; the latter even specifically mentioned Trump when talking about refraining from pushing a new Justice through.

"If an opening comes in the last year of President Trump's term, and the primary process has started, we'll wait to the next election"

Thankfully, it's already reported Republicans Romney, Murkowski, & Collins are indicating they will not vote. All it takes is 1 more Republican to see the hypocrisy and refrain from Pence making the deciding vote.