America - The Official Thread

[Danoff]

You must have forgotten how we were formed...

No, I have not. You must have forgotten what "we" formed.

That said is there any proof that the militia did it on Trumps orders or that they even support Trump or did some lucky idiot on Twitter with nothing better to do than dig through old Tweets and conveniently found said Tweet that had nothing to do with the situation and said oh how convenient!

How convenient? How do you not remember that tweet? I remember that tweet. I remember reading that tweet the first time it went out and thought... holy crap, Trump is advocating for the violent overthrow of democratically elected governments.

Do you know why everyone of the 6 joined or are you going off of what people are telling you that they think?

I'm using my brain. No I cannot read theirs, but that doesn't mean mine gets shut off.

People in Michigan have every right to be pissed off at their governor. Detroit job losses and the Flint water situation comes to mind. Remind me how many people died or got sick from the water? They literally put their citizens in danger without zero :censored:given.
But hey, the 6 guys are the bad guys...

YES!!! They're bad guys. Not the only bad guys, but they are bad guys. Holy hell.

Oh and feel free to report my post if you find it so disturbing.

I do. I'm still assessing whether I think you're part of a "militia". I'm combing back in my mind through everything I've ever read from you on this site and trying to figure out if you're just spouting off sympathizing with terrorists, or if you actually have already joined such an organization and are preparing to act on it this month.

This is not fighting tyrannical government. When you're committing violent acts against peaceful people, because of the president, you are the tyrannical government. How is that not clear?

Also, how is it not clear to you that you should not be claiming that the people who wanted to kidnap and murder the governor of michigan (and the president that incited it) were right to do so? Even the president (kinda) knows that he shouldn't do that. And he has very little judgment in these matters. You on the otherhand seem to think that you should advocate for it. Right in this post you claim that people who were just arrested for planning these violent crimes are not the bad guys... she is!

I've known some really awful people. Your comments here are ranking you among them.

 

[ryzno]

or if you actually have already joined such an organization and are preparing to act on it this month.

You are ****ing hysterical. I have better things to do with my time unlike Antifa. And I did miss that Tweet and the fact the group even existed. Again I have better things to do.

Smoke a blunt and calm down man.

Thanks for the laugh though...moving along.

 

[Joey D]

People in Michigan have every right to be pissed off at their governor. Detroit job losses and the Flint water situation comes to mind. Remind me how many people died or got sick from the water? They literally put their citizens in danger without zero :censored:given.

While I certainly agree Whitmer hasn't been great, she's not to blame for Detroit's awfulness or Flint's water. Detroit has been terrible for decades and was largely ruined due to the auto industry packing up and moving elsewhere. They also elected corrupt mayor after corrupt mayor. In 2001 they elected Kwama Kilpatrick who fleeced an untold amount of money out of the city and even killed a stripper, covered it up, and got away with it. He abused every single power he possibly could. He's now in jail. With Flint's water, it was a combination of an inept city council in Flint and the previous governor, Rick Synder, not doing a damn thing about it. Synder is guilty concerning Flint's water problems and probably should have legal action taken against him for how badly he neglected to do anything.

Prior to Rick Synder, Michigan had Jennifer Granholm, who wasn't even a native-born American (she was Canadian). She did her fair share to really ruin the state too, including getting the state so deep in debt that there was an active recall campaign against her. She also agreed to a deal that saw millions of tons of trash come into Michigan from Canada, which pissed off a ton of people.

Before that, we had Jon Engler, who was pretty meh. He did attempt to increase the allowable chemicals Dow could dump into the water though, which would've had a devastating effect on the Great Lakes. He was also apart of the whole Michigan State sports rape case that was a year or two ago.

Michigan has been a pretty poorly run state for years and it putting all of its eggs in the automotive basket didn't really help it either. I agree Whitmer isn't the best governor, but she was way better than Bill Schuette who she ran against. Not only was he avidly against any form or socially liberal policies (abortion, legalized marijuana, same-sex marriage) he was also against helping fix the issue in Flint at all. He wanted to even take away bottled water from the city, which a judge ruled as "unethical".

While some argue that Whitmer was overzealous with her response to COVID, you need to remember that during the late-spring/early-summer Michigan had one of the highest infection rates in the world. What she did helped get it under control rather quickly. Unfortunately, she seems afraid to roll back some of her policies and the state's Supreme Court has now overruled her. Michigan's economy has been crap for 25-30 years, so being in a state of lockdown for over six months was really taking its toll on things.

 

[Danoff]

You are ****ing hysterical. I have better things to do with my time unlike Antifa. And I did miss that Tweet and the fact the group even existed. Again I have better things to do.

Smoke a blunt and calm down man.

Thanks for the laugh though...moving along.

It's not funny. You've claimed here that the governor of michigan ought to have been kidnapped and murdered. That's literally the "better" thing you had to do with your time.

 

[ryzno]

It's not funny. You've claimed here that the governor of michigan ought to have been kidnapped and murdered.

Please show me where I said those exact words.
You don't have to kidnap or kill anyone to take over a town. CHAZ or whatever that stupid idea was called is a good example even though it failed in epic fashion.

 

[Danoff]

Please show me where I said those exact words.

You didn't use those exact words. But words have meaning. You don't have to use the literal words to convey the meaning. That's how language works. There is no other reasonable way to interpret your posts.

I note that you're also not hopping at the chance to say you don't think that.

 

[ryzno]

You didn't use those exact words. But words have meaning. You don't have to use the literal words to convey the meaning. That's how language works. There is no other reasonable way to interpret your posts.

Please read my edit.

 

[Danoff]

Please read my edit.

You didn't edit either of the posts where you conveyed that point.

 

[McLaren]

We have the right to form a militia to defend from a tyrannical government.
Forms militia, called domestic terrorism.
A little hypocritical... Don't you say?
And don't act like we(America) don't overthrow governments. Maybe it is time for a change in America?

Closing down schools and churches to slow the spread of a current pandemic is tyranny?


This is Skip Bayless-levels of bad first takes on a topic, dude.

But hey, the 6 guys are the bad guys...

They talked at one point about just ambushing her and shooting her, then whoever did it off'ing themselves....

 

[ryzno]

You didn't edit either of the posts where you conveyed that point.

You know what post I'm talking about.
Show me then... I already asked you too.

They talked at one point about just ambushing her and shooting her, then whoever did it off'ing themselves...

Oh, something else I didn't know.
Thanks Joey and McLaren for actually showing me their true colors instead of instantly screaming I'm calling the FBI!

 

[mustafur]

America hurts my brain.

 

[Danoff]

You know what post I'm talking about.
Show me then... I already asked you too.
Oh, something else I didn't know.

I do. And it doesn't help. And I already explained this to you.

Thanks Joey and McLaren for actually showing me their true colors instead of instantly screaming I'm calling the FBI!

I'm still considering it. I note that you still refuse to backtrack here. How about you just come out and say "I do not think that governor of michigan should be kidnapped and murdered". Let's start there.

 

[Sander 001]

We have the right to form a militia to defend from a tyrannical government.
Forms militia, called domestic terrorism.
A little hypocritical... Don't you say?
And don't act like we(America) don't overthrow governments. Maybe it is time for a change in America?

But what qualifies a tyranny?

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

@ryzno

Gretchen Whitmer has a net positive approval rating as of a few days ago. The last time we "overthrew" the government (aside from examples most would rather forget about) it was because the government in question was an unelected monarch who was massively unpopular. Do you think you or the terrorists in question could form a coherent list of 27 grievances against Whitmer that could justify such incredibly dumb action? I would suggest the insurgents in Michigan vote before resorting to violence. Just think about the implication of overthrowing a democratically elected leader who maintains net positive approval in the territory in which they govern. Think about that for a second. That means that a group representing a minority of people (probably a quite small minority) using force to impose their will on a majority of people. Does that sound right to you? If it does sound right to you, where does that leave Donald Trump, who has never even hit net positive approval! I mean if that's how you want to play then fine. But if we're going for might is right, sooner or later you're gonna lose, especially if you are the minority. The wild west ended because it sucked, no matter how much it is glamorized today.

 

[McLaren]

Oh, something else I didn't know.
Thanks Joey and McLaren for actually showing me their true colors instead of instantly screaming I'm calling the FBI!

I haven't watch the tapes shared of a couple of them supposedly sharing their views, but if I take the summaries as truth, 1-2 of these guys are the core definition of anarchists with a literal flag of Anarchy behind one of them. One of the men said he doesn't like Trump or anyone in government. I think that point should be known in fairness. But, another guy was also reportedly a supporter of Turning Point USA's Charlie Kirk, so I can't say for sure which way this group as a whole actively swings. But the timing with Trump's tweet, the info that these guys were meeting up during those lockdown protests (the one with the guy screaming in the cops face inside the courthouse(?)), and with the investigation supposedly starting back in June, doesn't paint a bright picture for Trump.


The thing is though, if I were to go ahead and accept these are not Trump supporters but real anarchists & the tweet was made at the wrong time, that doesn't excuse his response to the outcome of this plot. This could have been a perfect opportunity to come out and say, "I just heard about the plot against Whitmer by a white militia group. I will not tolerate any sort of violence against our government officials in any nature. We will have law and order applied to everyone equally!" It would've been an unprovoked call to publicly condemn white supremacy (even if it actually isn't white supremacists since he can spin things). But, he didn't. Instead, he re-attacked her over her policies in Michigan, to the point one could interpret him as saying she did a bunch of bad things and this was the retaliation and I saved her.

 

[ryzno]

"I do not think that governor of michigan should be kidnapped and murdered"

To humor you I don't but, I don't think I should have to cause I never said that and you still can't show me where I did. I'm not going to apologize for something I didn't say.
Just like when DesertPenguin tried to make me say someone's name when I never told anyone to say anyone's name.
Maybe stop over thinking things man. You're the only one who came to that conclusion.
A moderator liked your post, my post is still up so obviously I haven't called for anyone to kill anyone and if I did that post would be gone and I'd be banned. I'm literally trying my damnedest to not go off on you for making retract words I never said to stroke your ego. As usual y'all will your fancy vocabulary take the most simple of posts and twist them a thousand ways. I said they should try to oust hre, I never said they should kill her. If you think I did you need help IMO. You're better than this man I thought we were friends.

You want to report me to the FBI for something? Call them and tell them I'm about to make a run to my not so local street corner pharmacist. That's the biggest threat I am to America.
Deuces.

 

[DeathSmiles]

Imagine if that "militia" (they are Domestic Terrorist, btw), were brown or black? They all would have been executed on the spot, more than likely. And definitely labeled terrorist and thugs by the media.

 

[Joey D]

Imagine if that "militia" (they are Domestic Terrorist, btw), were brown or black? They all would have been executed on the spot, more than likely. And definitely labeled terrorist and thugs by the media.

Weirdly, the previous leader of the Michigan Militia, Matt Savino, is a Muslim and was kicked out of Hutaree when he "came out" as a practicer of Islam. I'm not sure about his race or ethnicity though, he could very well have a Middle Eastern background.

 

[DeathSmiles]

Weirdly, the previous leader of the Michigan Militia, Matt Savino, is a Muslim and was kicked out of Hutaree when he "came out" as a practicer of Islam. I'm not sure about his race or ethnicity though, he could very well have a Middle Eastern background.

Hilarious.

America, founded on the principal of separation of Church and State, without the separation of mother****ing Church and State. Its fine though, because its a terrorist group.

But, our whole corrupt system, politics, etc. All people attempting to impose our own twisted and skewed versions of Christianity on people, being in direct opposition to the founding father's principles.

 

[Danoff]

To humor you I don't but,

Ok good to know. Next up, I want to know if you agree with this statement "I think that anyone who plotted to kidnap and murder the governor of Michigan should be arrested and prosecuted".

I don't think I should have to cause I never said that and you still can't show me where I did. I'm not going to apologize for something I didn't say.

This is your position?

Let's take a look:

We have the right to form a militia to defend from a tyrannical government.
Forms militia, called domestic terrorism.
A little hypocritical... Don't you say?
And don't act like we(America) don't overthrow governments. Maybe it is time for a change in America?

Explain to me how this is not an endorsement of the actions of this "militia" in michigan. This is very clearly you saying that this militia in Michigan was defending themselves against tyrannical government with their plot (there is only one plot here that I'm aware of) to kidnap and murder the governor. And you close by saying maybe it's time for this "change". It's pretty clear that you think this change is to form "militia" and "overthrow" the government.

How is that anything but endorsing their actions? You think I can't show you where you said it? Show me how it means anything else.

Maybe stop over thinking things man. You're the only one who came to that conclusion.

That's not clear to me. What is clear to me is that you are now asking me to overthink your posts to read something other than was plainly stated.

A moderator liked your post, my post is still up so obviously I haven't called for anyone to kill anyone and if I did that post would be gone and I'd be banned.

Your post is still young.

I'm literally trying my damnedest to not go off on you for making retract words I never said to stroke your ego.

Ok, I'll have another go.

People in Michigan have every right to be pissed off at their governor. Detroit job losses and the Flint water situation comes to mind. Remind me how many people died or got sick from the water? They literally put their citizens in danger without zero :censored:given.
But hey, the 6 guys are the bad guys...

Explain to me how this means anything other than that the people who plotted to kidnap and apparently murder the governor of Michigan are not bad guys...

As usual y'all will your fancy vocabulary take the most simple of posts and twist them a thousand ways.

Twist? This is the only interpretation I see. No fancy vocabulary, just listening to what you said.

I said they should try to oust hre,

Oh really? Where? I don't see the word oust? Oh you're trying to base this on the meaning of the words instead of the literal words now? How about this one - I don't see where this militia tried to "oust" anyone in any way other than violently. How am I supposed to overthink "nonviolent" into your post?

I never said they should kill her.

But the guys that tried to are good guys...

You're better than this man I thought we were friends.

I've tried with you. I've given you the benefit of the doubt many times. You crossed a line here.

 

[ryzno]

kidnap and apparently murder

And how many times have I said I didn't know they wanted to kill her?

Talk about beating a dead horse...

Think what you want man.

And the benefit of the doubt on what? You think I'm some neo nazi.

I can't figure out how to share my FB profile here but here's a post from my timeline of me. Y'all are more than welcome to access my profile from there and show me where you think I promote murder.

Edit: Link removed.
Y'all had access long enough.

Seriously I'm actually offended by your accusation and how you are still jumping on the idea I'm some murderer in the waiting.
You can go to ****ing hell as far as I'm concerned.

YOU are the only one who thought that!

 

[Danoff]

And how many times have I said I didn't know they wanted to kill her?

Lemme check... none. Are you talking about this (one single post)?

Oh, something else I didn't know.

This was in regard to alternative plans that included shooting followed by suicide. It's not clear from that that this was directed to the kidnapping plan at all.

So am I to take from this that you'd be good with kidnapping? What part of their plan were you trying to show support for?

And the benefit of the doubt on what? You think I'm some neo nazi.

I (still) think that you think that the people who planned this are not "bad guys". Because you have not said otherwise, and you literally said they weren't bad guys.

I can't figure out how to share my FB profile here but here's a post from my timeline of me. Y'all are more than welcome to access my profile from there and show me where you think I promote murder.

No idea what this has to do with anything.

Seriously I'm actually offended by your accusation and how you are still jumping on the idea I'm some murderer in the waiting.
You can go to ****ing hell as far as I'm concerned.

Still trying to square this with your own words. I note that you did not take the opportunity to agree with the statement I wrote in my previous post. Now it looks like you omitted kidnap on purpose. So give me a straight answer here, are you cool with the kidnapping portion of the plan?

YOU are the only one who thought that!

That's not clear to me.

 

[ryzno]

That's not clear to me.

You're the only on going on about it. Moderator has been through and moved along and here we are arguing over nonsense.

Now it looks like you omitted kidnap on purpose.

Oh for **** sakes! Do you have anything better to do today? I didn't but this is getting annoying! Excuse me for missing a word sir wants to hear. I don't support them after finding out their plan, both parts of it! And come on man, I talked about how me and my neighbors beat the living crap out of a pedo trying to kidnap a little girl! You are jumping through too many hoops trying to paint me as a bad guy. I have better things to do with my time than address every word you disagree with regardless of me denouncing a group. I'm not the god damn President.

Good day sir.

 

[McLaren]

I can't figure out how to share my FB profile here but here's a post from my timeline of me. Y'all are more than welcome to access my profile from there and show me where you think I promote murder.

I get that you're willing to display your own profile to prove your point, but I would edit it out. I don't think there's ever time necessary for one's personal page to be shared unless the member truly wants it to be under friendlier situations, not in an argument to justify themselves; at that point, the other member can take their word for it or leave it.

That's just my 2 cents. I'm not keen on seeing a member's personal life brought into a debate, whether by their choice or not.

 

[Danoff]

I don't support them after finding out their plan, both parts of it!

Good. How hard was that?

And come on man, I talked about how me and my neighbors beat the living crap out of a pedo trying to kidnap a little girl! You are jumping through too many hoops trying to paint me as a bad guy. I have better things to do with my time than address every word you disagree with regardless of me denouncing a group. I'm not the god damn President.

Good day sir.

So what exactly were you trying to support?

 

[ryzno]

So what exactly were you trying to support?

The idea we have the right to remove one or many people from office. People think you have to wait for an election to remove someone from office and there is no other way.
The recent protests should be proof of people stepping down before an election and I'm not talking about the police.
You get enough people together the government listens even when it's not election time.

 

[Danoff]

The idea we have the right to remove one or many people from office. People think you have to wait for an election to remove someone from office and there is no other way.

You mean like impeachment? Because if I take what your apparent meaning is, no you do not have the "right" to remove one or many people from office the way you appear to be implying.

The recent protests should be proof of people stepping down before an election and I'm not talking about the police.
You get enough people together the government listens even when it's not election time.

You're walking a line here between saying that peaceful protests might result in someone voluntarily stepping down, and violent riots might result in someone being force out of office (violently). There's a huge difference between the two.

Anyway, this is not what I meant with my question. Thank you for answering though. What I meant was specifically what action did you think you were supporting? Presumably you knew about the "militia" in Michigan, you used the word militia. What did you think they had done that was worthy of your support? If I'm to believe you about not knowing that what they had done was plan and discuss kidnapping and murder, give me some alternative interpretation as to what you thought they had done or planned. Because I don't think you figured they were arrested for planning a peaceful protest hoping that the governor was going to voluntarily resign.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Leif Eriksson day? I'm going to seem very stupid... but doesn't the USA already have one?

 

[Danoff]

A Sheriff in Michigan believes that these "militia" men were attempting a a citizen's arrest. This interpretation will sit well in the echo chambers of some people.

Of course that doesn't square at all with the official affidavit from the FBI. A warning, if you're going to go into this, there's a lot of foul language.

Pages 7 and 8:

In that chat, HARRIS stated, “Have one person go to her house. Knock on the door and when she answers it just cap her . . . at this point. **** it.” He added, “I mean . . . ****, catch her walking into the building and act like a passers-by and fixing dome her then yourself whoever does it.” (sic). In a follow-up chat about the plan, FRANKS told CHS-2, “OK sounds good I’m in for anything as long as its well planned.

This is multiple members discussing immediately shooting her and then themselves (as @McLaren posted earlier).

Page 13:

During the ride back to GARBIN’s property, FRANKS stated “We’re doin’ all the reconnaissance work, so it should go smooth.” After arriving back at GARBIN’s property, CHS-2 asked, “Everybody down with what’s going on?” and someone stated, “If you’re not down with the thought of kidnapping, don’t sit here.” GARBIN replied, “Oh no, we’re not kidnapping, that’s not what we’re doing,” which sparked general laughter. Amidst the laughter, another voice said, “No children!” and a voice added, “We’re adult napping.” FRANKS stated, “Kidnapping, arson, death. I don’t care.” The group then started discussing destroying the vacation home.

Page 14 - terrorist intent clearly stated:

On September 17, 2020, on an encrypted group chat that included FOX, GARBIN, FRANKS, HARRIS, CASERTA, CHS-2, and others, FOX asked the group what it thought of a militia group invitation to participate in an armed protest at the State Capitol. GARBIN replied, “I would highly advise minimizing any communication with him. Also there needs to be zero and i mean zero public interaction if we want to continue with our plans.” CASERTA replied, “When the time comes there will be no need to try and strike fear through presence. The fear will be manifested through bullets.” FOX responded, “Copy that boys, loud and clear!”

I thought this was interesting too:

Page 3

Several members talked about murdering “tyrants” or “taking” a sitting governor.

Page 5

FOX referred to Governor Whitmer as “this tyrant *****,”

There's a ton more in there.

@ryzno

I was actually hoping for an answer. The fact that the militia plotted to kidnap and kill the governor was posted twice (once in huge bold letters) before your first endorsement and once again before your second endorsement. If it's to be believable that you didn't know (just missed it somehow), there needs to be an alternative. And I don't see what it is. What did you think you were supporting when you implied that these people were not bad guys? Did you think they were arrested for conspiracy to send nasty letters? Were you saying that the kidnapping plan was fine and the murder was not? And you just somehow missed the murder bit in the post you responded to by implying that these guys are not bad guys?

Where we've left it does not hang together as believable.

 

[Dotini]

We have the right to form a militia to defend from a tyrannical government...Maybe it is time for a change in America?

(Leaving aside for the moment your totally crucial question) In a way your statement is correct, but not without qualification. Informed opinions on this differ, but if my understanding is correct, a militia formed to defend against a putative tyrannical US federal government would require the imprimatur of a state government.

When the proposed Constitution was before the people for ratification, many anti‐Federalists worried that the new government would be too powerful, and could become tyrannical. In Federalist No. 46, James Madison reassured the public that the many checks and balances in the Constitution — the separation of powers between the executive, legislative, and judicial branches, for example — made it very unlikely that a tyrant could seize power. If a tyrant did, he would speedily be deposed by the state governments, who would lead the armed people in the militias.

“Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation,” Madison wrote, “the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of.” By “simple,” Madison meant a unitary government, such as France, as opposed to the US Constitution’s system of dividing sovereignty between the federal government and the states.

Madison was following a long tradition in Western Christian thought that the best leaders of resistance to tyranny were “intermediate magistrates” — such as local governments and their officials.

The founders rejected the notion that individuals or some group could use armed force just because they did not like a particular law. In fact, they believed quite the opposite: The Constitution specifically empowers Congress “[t]o provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions.” The power was first exercised during the presidencies of George Washington and John Adams, when the federal government called forth state militias to suppress insurrections known as the Whiskey Rebellion (in western Pennsylvania) and Fries’s Rebellion (in eastern Pennsylvania). Both insurrections had grown out of anti‐tax protests, in which mobs crossed the line by using armed force.

https://www.cato.org/publications/c...nd-amendment-shouldnt-be-dismissed-so-quickly