America - The Official Thread

  • Thread starter ///M-Spec
  • 38,707 comments
  • 1,595,524 views
It occurred to me the other day that I doubt you could pass legislation to ban machine guns with the current conservative landscape. The reading of 2A is so absolute that I'm not sure you could get 60 senators to support restricting field artillery or rocket propelled grenades, if they weren't already restricted. I don't believe there is any rational self-defense argument for high capacity magazines (I've owned several firearms with high-cap mags), just as there isn't (at one time at least) a rational or at least sufficient self-defense argument for machine guns or grenades or battle tanks. There is a militia argument to be made for genuine military equipment, but it doesn't seem like there is an appetite to parse 2A into discrete [self defense | militia] rulesets. But there ought to be. There should be two categories of firearms, those eligible for private ownership, and those that must be maintained by organized militias. Organized militias often bark and grandstand and threaten, but they don't go shooting up elementary schools - and I do see a rational reason for having them (I mean, look at Ukraine, Iran, DPRK etc where an armed citizenry would be a benefit).

People will argue that a hunting rifle with a 5-round box magazine is still a lethal instrument and that banning military-esque rifles doesn't solve anything. That's true to an extent, but an AR-pattern rifle is designed for and quite good at killing a lot of people rather quickly. A semi-auto hunting rifle would not be as effective - maybe in this case the school resource officer would have been able to subdue the ******** before he killed 19 kids if the perp had to deal with a clunky reload process. Beyond that, and I've hammered on this point before, I don't think kids like this would even commit these acts if they can't do it with their preferred Call of Duty/Counterstrike Weapon. This ******** and Texas (and the other ****heads who have done similar things) is not walking into a school with a lame ass wood furniture .303 hunting rifle because that isn't part of the fantasy. The AR15 is instrumental to the act, it's not merely a tool. They want to be tacticool. The tacticool fetishism is all part of it. I bet this ******** had accessory rails for flashlights and **** on his rifle like he's some sort of Navy Seal. Can somebody name a mass casualty school shooting incident in the last 20 years where the weapon used was not at least supposed to look like a military weapon? Kel-Tecs are lame as ****, but they are cheap and look like something special forces might use in a b-budget action movie.

So what do we do? I'd propose that only licensed (yes, federally licensed) militia members should be able to buy any rifle that can accept high capacity magazines, and that those militias must self regulate their members. I think there is clear precedent that this works. When's the last time somebody with a Machine Gun permit or even an SBR permit committed an act like this with the weapon they were licensed to own? I can't recall a single time.

Imagine if this rule existed the day this kid turned 18 - lets imagine the possible outcomes. Would he have joined a local militia just to be able to buy an AR15 to commit this act? It's possible, but if the Militia had any sort of standards for its members, it would have very likely had some reservations about allowing this kid to access or buy the weapon he wanted to use. There's your screening right there. Alternatively, he doesn't join the militia and therefore is not able to acquire an AR15, the gun he really wanted to have for this fantasy. Does he go to the local gun store and pick up some limited capacity wood-stock hunting rifle? I really, really doubt it. Worse case scenario is he does do that, and his rampage is limited by the relatively less effective gun. More than likely, I think the scenario plays out with the kid listening to some thrash metal, feeling super angsty, playing some CoD, and doing nothing.

We have to stop giving these kids (who we can't realistically know about beforehand) the opportunity and means to perpetrate these deadly larps.
 
Anybody surprised that there’s a correlation between how people vote and their state’s per capita gun death rate?

I thought not.


PS I’m thankful to live in Massachusetts
 
Last edited:
Anybody surprised that there’s a correlation between how people vote and their state’s per capita gun death rate?

I thought not.


PS I’m thankful to live in Massachusetts
Sort of, however, there are several exceptions there. Utah is the second reddest state, yet it's below average. Texas is also below average too despite being very red. On the flip side states like New Mexico and Nevada are both fairly blue, yet are considerably above average.

Some of the red states in the considerably above average are likely suicide deaths too since Wyoming and Alaska have some of the highest suicide rates in the nation.

While I'm sure politics play a part, I don't think it's the whole picture.
 
Sort of, however, there are several exceptions there. Utah is the second reddest state, yet it's below average. Texas is also below average too despite being very red. On the flip side states like New Mexico and Nevada are both fairly blue, yet are considerably above average.

Some of the red states in the considerably above average are likely suicide deaths too since Wyoming and Alaska have some of the highest suicide rates in the nation.

While I'm sure politics play a part, I don't think it's the whole picture.
That map looks like it tracks a lot more closely with poverty than with voting trends.
 
If there is one thing I have learned from decades of discussion this subject. More kids will die because in reality guns is more important than the life of kids.

There is always an excuse, live by the gun die by the gun no matter how old and innocent you are.

It's devastating to witness and it hurts to know that the next time kids will be bleeding to death on the floors of classrooms somewhere in the USA it could have been avoided.
 
More kids will die because in reality guns is more important than the life of kids.
Apparently complaining about guns is more important than focusing specifically on how to keep kids safe. It has been made painfully clear why focusing on banning guns will not help.

It's devastating to witness and it hurts to know that the next time kids will be bleeding to death on the floors of classrooms somewhere in the USA it could have been avoided.
Not by whining about the 2nd amendment or complaining about the NRA it can't.
 
Apparently complaining about guns is more important than focusing specifically on how to keep kids safe. It has been made painfully clear why focusing on banning guns will not help.


Not by whining about the 2nd amendment or complaining about the NRA it can't.
If guns were banned those kids would have been alive today, but i guess that is just whining.
 
Did the police allow him to go shoot up the school while waiting for back up? And it took a hero customs agent going in to take him out? This is obviously a developing story, but that is a WILD if true. I know police in America in general have been anything but heroes, but this would be next-level cowardice. "Your job is to go home" said every coward ever. A policeman's job is to make sure everyone else goes home, even if it means DYING for it.


RE: guns

My gun license proposal I posted here a while back may have prevented this, I believe. Pro gun freedom Americans need to find a good middle ground that keeps sane, law abiding citizens armed while weeding out the crazies. Stories like this are disheartening.

That has a slightly different solution.
Did you post this somewhere? Curious to read.

I doubt you could pass legislation to ban machine guns
Already banned unless you're an SOT (gun dealer, gunsmith, etc)...

The AR15 is instrumental to the act, it's not merely a tool.
Why not HK416, SCAR or Galil Ace?

What's with the hard on everyone has on AR15's? They're cheap and sold everywhere around the world. Toyota Corollas, Camrys and Nissan Altimas are the most involved cars in traffic accidents where I live. It's not the make and model.

Anybody surprised that there’s a correlation between how people vote and their state’s per capita gun death rate?

I thought not.


PS I’m thankful to live in Massachusetts
Correlation doesn't mean anything without controlling for every other factor. Socio-economic equality, infrastructure, standard of living, and good education seem more at play.
 
Last edited:
If guns were banned those kids would have been alive today, but i guess that is just whining.
Yes. Because it literally cannot happen. As has been explained to you multiple times. It is just whining about something which will not change. Meanwhile, there are actually things we can do to make schools safer.
 
Clipboard01.jpg


What's wrong with the stats and conclusion in this article? Have you got any kind of counter-argument or are you just being @R3V?
 
Yes. Because it literally cannot happen. As has been explained to you multiple times. It is just whining about something which will not change. Meanwhile, there are actually things we can do to make schools safer.
Of course it can happen, if the people of USA wants a change it will happen. Until then kids will be gunned down in cold blood and there will be prayers and lots of thoughts about the massive moneys that gets paid to politicians for doing nothing but pretending to be praying.

Even if the USA moved into the class of developed countries with universal healthcare, free education and help for those with mental health issues guns would still be just as easy to get and use. And it would happen, other developed countries have the same kind of crazy people, they just don't have access to weapons of "mass killings".

B A N T H E G U N S
 
I can understand the logic behind the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act being overturned, but I can also see it becoming a precedent we don't want. Think about if someone uses a Chevy Tahoe to drive through a group of protesters, should GM be held liable over that? I'm not sure what it's like in other areas of the world when it comes to lawsuits but the US is an incredibly litigious society and there are hundreds, if not thousands, of predatory lawfirms just looking for a chance to sue. It could even go as far as people suing places like McDonald's because they got heart disease from living purely on Big Macs. Changing a law like PLCAA needs to be part of a larger change in both the culture and how the courts function.
Fun Fact: The Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (codified as 15 U.S.C. § 7902) is a federal statute. No federal statute exempts GM or McDonald's from liability as PLCAA does, though statutes passed on the state level may. Absent liability exemption for the acts of the individual, it is still exceptionally difficult to bring a suit and successfully show cause in said suit against a commercial entity that brings to market a product that can't itself be reasonably said to have caused harm.

PLCAA was pushed for by the gun lobby. Republicans, being the party of small government, surely must have pushed back against lobbying interests, right? Right? Ehhhhh...notsomuch. A single Republican, John Chafee of Rhode Island, voted against PLCAA in the United States Senate. Forty-nine other Republicans voted in favor of it. Similarly, just four Republicans voted against it in the House of Representatives. So much for small government. Republicans are for federal enforcement of protections and prohibitions of which they approve. The moment they disapprove of specific protections and prohibitions, it should be left to individual states. Because consistency.

I'm in disagreement with you regarding the overturning of PLCAA. Not the slippery slope implication, mind; I actually oppose overturning PLCAA because entities should not be put in a position where they have to defend against liability claims for which cause can't be shown. I do understand the desire to overturn it, but I can't find any logic in that desire.
 
Last edited:
Of course it can happen, if the people of USA wants a change it will happen. Until then kids will be gunned down in cold blood and there will be prayers and lots of thoughts about the massive moneys that gets paid to politicians for doing nothing but pretending to be praying.
If you're holding out for a 2nd amendment change here, you're doing nothing more than thinking and praying. Meanwhile I emailed my kids' school this morning to share specific suggestions for how to improve security, and asked how to get involved in the discussion within the district.
Even if the USA moved into the class of developed countries with universal healthcare, free education and help for those with mental health issues guns would still be just as easy to get and use. And it would happen, other developed countries have the same kind of crazy people, they just don't have access to weapons of "mass killings".

B A N T H E G U N S
...you're screaming at the sky thinking you're making a difference. There are real reasons not to ban guns or repeal the 2nd amendment. That doesn't mean we're powerless on this issue.
 
Last edited:
For curiosity's sake, why can you purchase a gun at 18 but not alcohol?

I know the reality is different but legally why is there no parity with these two laws?
 
suggestions for how to improve security
Do you think the additional airport security measures taken after 9/11 have done much?


Kids shouldn't be reminded every day that it could be their last. Feels like a band aid solution. Then again, I don't have kids and there's never been a mass shooting where I live.
 
For curiosity's sake, why can you purchase a gun at 18 but not alcohol?

I know the reality is different but legally why is there no parity with these two laws?
Speaking of the constitution, for a little while we had the 18th amendment banning alcohol nationwide simultaneously with the 2nd amendment protecting guns nationwide. Those two things worked together rather famously.

I imagine the rationale would go something like saying that you have a need to protect yourself as soon as you live on your own. But alcohol is so dangerous that an 18 year old can't be trusted with it.
 
R3V
Do you think the additional airport security measures taken after 9/11 have done much?


Kids shouldn't be reminded every day that it could be their last. Feels like a band aid solution. Then again, I don't have kids and there's never been a mass shooting where I live.
As I said earlier, my kindergartener participates in active shooter drills. As I mentioned earlier, the security measures my school takes during operation were the same security measures that thwarted a would-be school shooter in California.

In short, you don't seem to know what you're talking about.
 
As I said earlier, my kindergartener participates in active shooter drills. As I mentioned earlier, the security measures my school takes during operation were the same security measures that thwarted a would-be school shooter in California.

In short, you don't seem to know what you're talking about.
You don't think a teenager can find ways to smuggle a gun bypassing the metal detector you proposed? Thick doors are fine. Metal detectors are not.

I'd like to know more about the thwrated attack. Kindly share articles.
 
R3V
You don't think a teenager can find ways to smuggle a gun bypassing the metal detector you proposed? Thick doors are fine. Metal detectors are not.
What's wrong with metal detectors?

I'd like to see schools move away from backpacks, gym bags, etc. Anything that needs to be brought onto school grounds that can conceal guns should be, and can be, screened separately. We have security at our courthouses, at federal offices, at airports, why can we not have security at schools?
R3V
I'd like to know more about the thwrated attack. Kindly share articles.
 
If you're holding out for a 2nd amendment change here, you're doing nothing more than thinking and praying. Meanwhile I emailed my kids' school this morning to share specific suggestions for how to improve security, and asked how to get involved in the discussion within the district.

...you're screaming at the sky thinking you're making a difference. There are real reasons not to ban guns or repeal the 2nd amendment. That doesn't mean we're powerless on this issue.
Nope i'm not screaming, i am just telling you what would make a difference, in the past 40 or is 50 years everything you say has been said over and over again. And you know the definition of insanity

Speaking of the constitution, for a little while we had the 18th amendment banning alcohol nationwide simultaneously with the 2nd amendment protecting guns nationwide. Those two things worked together rather famously.

I imagine the rationale would go something like saying that you have a need to protect yourself as soon as you live on your own. But alcohol is so dangerous that an 18 year old can't be trusted with it.
Kinder Surprise Eggs are much more dangerous than Guns!
 
Last edited:
Nope i'm not screaming, i am just telling you what would make a difference, in the past 40 or is 50 years everything you say has been said over and over again. And you know the definition of insanity
And to the extent that it has been tried, it is actually working! I'd like to see more of it done. 50 years ago kids didn't participate in active shooter drills. 50 years ago schools didn't have lockdown procedures. A lockdown in california saved countless lives. For all I know, active shooter training helped segment students in the Uvalde shooting and prevent even more deaths. I would not be surprised to discover that this was the case based on what I know of that event.

What YOU'RE doing has been said over and over again and will make no difference. You're accusing me of what you're doing. Meanwhile some security measures are making school safer. I want to see more of that.

Do go on with your thoughts and prayers about the 2nd amendment though. See how many people it helps.
 
Last edited:
And to the extent that it has been tried, it is actually working! I'd like to see more of it done.

What YOU'RE doing has been said over and over again and will make no difference. You're accusing me of what you're doing. Meanwhile some security measures are making school safer. I want to see more of that.

Do go on with your thoughts and prayers about the 2nd amendment though. See how many people it helps.
There is no god so no reason to pray, unless you need votes of course. And a society that need to protect it's kids from guns with "security measures" has a fundamental problem. Lets chat the next time kids get shot and until then, stay safe.
 
We have security at our courthouses, at federal offices, at airports, why can we not have security at schools?
Most of that is theater and knee-jerk reactions to incidents such as this one. Did you read the TSA article?

Metal detectors are more or less useless unless the whole area is fenced off with a team survailing CCTV. You can break in at night to plant whatever you want. You can use the windows around the school to throw something in. You can use emergency exits. Most of these shooting incidents are planned. The shooters commit to it and will find ways. A metal detector will not stop them. You also assume the shooter is going to carry the gun inside and wait for the right moment to start blasting, instead of just shooting his way in through any security guard. It's really like having a lock to your house, or a safe. They keep honest people honest, and maybe buy you a few minutes before calling the police.

I'll read the article you linked in the morning and see if I have specific issues with it.

edit

I'm not entirely opposed to the idea. I just think the negatives grossly outweigh the one or two incidents it may prevent. The mental health detriment of kids going every day to school through such security measures is not to be underestimated.
 
Last edited:
There is no god so no reason to pray, unless you need votes of course. And a society that need to protect it's kids from guns with "security measures" has a fundamental problem.
You're not here to actually try to think of ways to help, you're just here to take pot shots. It's tiresome and pointless.
Lets chat the next time kids get shot and until then, stay safe.
Let's chat THIS time. Let's chat about LAST time. What's helping? School wide lockdowns are helping. Segmenting kids into locked spaces might be helping, this particular incident might shed some more light on that.

I'd like to know what measures the school took once the shooter gained access. Did they do the drill? How did it work out? Does someone feel that more kids were spared because the shooter was effectively confined to a single room? Or do we think something else might have worked better? Why was the shooter able to gain access to the school during regular hours? Shouldn't it have gone into lockdown? Is a security guard fundamentally not the right option for entry? Seems like it didn't work out.

I'm not content to sit around and wait to rehash this discussion until next time, because there are measures we can take right now, today, and there are real things we can learn from this incident and implement. It is the difference between actually wanting to do something about this, and just wanting to talk politics and get nothing done.

The whole "ban guns, problem solved" strategy is beyond useless.

R3V
Metal detectors are more or less useless unless the whole area is fenced off with a team survailing CCTV. You can break in at night to plant whatever you want.
That seems absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to solve. Good point. [/s]
R3V
You can use the windows around the school to throw something in.
I have no idea what could be done about that. [/s]

R3V
You can use emergency exits.
9b6.png


R3V
Most of these shooting incidents are planned. The shooters commit to it and will find ways. A metal detector will not stop them.
And you've definitely proven that one. [/s]

R3V
You also assume the shooter is going to carry the gun inside and wait for the right moment to start blasting, instead of just shooting his way in through any security guard.
Well, aside from the fact that that is literally what appears to have happened in this latest incident, yea everything I'm talking about is to prevent smuggling weapons into the school. So...

48f62d1138e3b095acbfe9cebb4e471d682d8080.gifv

R3V
It's really like having a lock to your house, or a safe. They keep honest people honest, and maybe buy you a few minutes before calling the police.
To keep honest people honest? You're... you're just saying random words at this point that make no sense.

Edit:

R3V
I'm not entirely opposed to the idea. I just think the negatives grossly outweigh the one or two incidents it may prevent. The mental health detriment of kids going every day to school through such security measures is not to be underestimated.
Do you want to help prevent dead kids or not? My kids already participate in drills where they hide in a closet from a hypothetical shooter out to kill them. What exactly do you think a metal detector is going to do to freak them out? To the extent that you think it's theater, it might actually make them feel safe.
 
Last edited:


Religious folks here in the states can be really something else. What a gross thing to share & for parents of those children to possibly see.

Edit*
According to this article, it's said police engaged the shooter before he entered the school.
Texas police had a shootout with the Uvalde gunman before he entered Robb Elementary School — but were not able to stop him.

Sgt. Erick Estrada of the Texas Department of Public Safety told Anderson Cooper on Tuesday night that "several" officers engaged with the shooter, who we are not naming, outside the school premises, yet he still made entry and massacred 19.
 
Last edited:
R3V
Already banned unless you're an SOT (gun dealer, gunsmith, etc)...


Why not HK416, SCAR or Galil Ace?

What's with the hard on everyone has on AR15's? They're cheap and sold everywhere around the world. Toyota Corollas, Camrys and Nissan Altimas are the most involved cars in traffic accidents where I live. It's not the make and model.
You didn't read my post very well if these were your takeaways.
 
Ugh, nasty stuff! What has this economy and world come to!? Bless those children that had to experience that school shooting in Texas. Did you guys hear it on the news. I saw it on the CNN headline on their website.
 
Edit*
According to this article, it's said police engaged the shooter before he entered the school.

Ugh... he got past police stationed at the school. Something's not adding up. He crashed near the school, exited his vehicle, fought with officers who were stationed AT the school, and somehow was still able to gain entry...

Something somewhere failed in that chain. That school should have been locked up tight by then.
 
Last edited:
Yeah, it should be on lockdown until the end of this year. That shooter should go to jail indefinitely for what he did. Trying to take the lives of innocent children! What an outrage!
 
Back