An apology to all future generations: Sorry we used up your oil...

  • Thread starter Zardoz
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Zardoz
Okay: Do the math for me. What average would you like to use, and how much will production be reduced in ten years, twenty years, and thirty years? The whole point of my original post is what things will be like in the future, not next spring.

Ah, so it's not a sudden problem anymore. Now all of the sudden we have some time to adapt to the changes. It's like I said originally. We will gradually adjust to the decline in oil availability and subsequent increase in price. As some wells dry up we will drill new, more expensive ones to tap harder-to-reach oil, preventing the supply from going down drastically but bumpting up the price.

Not to worry, civilization will not come to an end. We have alternatives and, as soon as it's economically advantageous to use them, we will.

So... I'd like to sum up this thread by saying that there is no need to apologize to future generations.
 
Young_Warrior
.And I can get a plan to birmingham for £1 and in turn pawn your car argument.

I think you're saying that you can fly to Birmingham quicker/cheaper than I can drive there.

If it's £1, then cheaper maybe. But you need to "somehow" get from your home to your London airport and from Birmingham airport to your destination, and you're limited on what luggage you can carry.

Planes are hardly public transport though, and as for carbon dioxide load... Whoooo man, you've backed a loser.


Young_Warrior
You get food and get to watch TV on trains.

You can watch TV in my car too. And, if you bring along your own food, you don't have to pay the rail network's ridiculous markup.
 
Young_Warrior
Nearly 90p in some places per litre

Famine
"Nearly" meaning "slightly in excess of".

Okay, time out!

At today's exchange rate, a dollar equals 58 pence, so a pound equals $1.72.

90p is $1.55 per liter.

A liter equals .2639 gallons, so you poor devils are paying $5.87 a frickin' gallon!?!?!?

Are you kidding me??? That's double what we were paying during the crunch a couple of months ago!
 
danoff
Ah, so it's not a sudden problem anymore. Now all of the sudden we have some time to adapt to the changes.

Like I originally said, maybe its a "sudden problem", and maybe it isn't:

Zardoz
The only "debate" is whether or not the permanent shortage will begin in a few decades, or just a few years, or if, in fact, it has already begun and we are about to start seeing the real effects of it.


danoff
... I'd like to sum up this thread by saying that there is no need to apologize to future generations.

Yeah, actually, we do need to. We didn't have to burn up the black gold this fast. We could have delayed this by decades if we had done just a little thinking about what we were doing.

Don't tell me we should plead ignorance, either. We've been talking about oil being a finite resource for decades. Hell, over 25 years ago my boss and I were talking about it, and what things would be like when the oil finally ran out. I'll always remember him chuckling and saying, "Well, it won't be our problem, will it?"

I laughed right along with him. Doesn't seem quite so funny now...
 
I donmt want you oldies to apologise to me and my future kids. I want you guys to get your butts moving and limiting the damage.Hell if we run out of fuel in the next 20 years it will be you oldies that suffer more. Survival of the fittest. First us as we battle to get things back to our normal living standards then our kids and then you old folks. Just look at the state of pensioners today and they fought for us in WW2. Maybe the old people were the greediest generations of them all. Human living standards is seemingly near enough peaked and like all other organisms our numbers will fall off and one day we shall bring them back up again. Circle of life.
 
Zardoz
Okay, time out!

At today's exchange rate, a dollar equals 58 pence, so a pound equals $1.72.

90p is $1.55 per liter.

A liter equals .2639 gallons, so you poor devils are paying $5.87 a frickin' gallon!?!?!?

Are you kidding me??? That's double what we were paying during the crunch a couple of months ago!

Nope. No joke.

88.9p/litre is "good" at the moment. It was peaking at an average of 95.9p/litre a couple of months ago.

I remember back to about 1980 when petrol was 90p per gallon (and that's an Imperial gallon, not a US one - 20% larger).

And remember - we "make" our OWN oil and have our OWN refineries.
 
Those high prices are 70% taxes. I don't have a problem with it. If gas would be sold for cost prices people would move everywhere by car and you'd get traffic jams everywhere. In Europe you don't need your car as much as when living on the country side of the USA. I do believe they should change the tax system though, for example partially refunding paid gas taxes to people who do not live in a city. Then again, that would bring such high administrative costs that it would probably be better to scrap the gas taxes all together.
 
smellysocks12
Those high prices are 70% taxes. I don't have a problem with it. If gas would be sold for cost prices people would move everywhere by car and you'd get traffic jams everywhere.

As opposed to the obviously free-flowing traffic we have now?

smellysocks12
In Europe you don't need your car as much as when living on the country side of the USA.

Based on..?

smellysocks12
I do believe they should change the tax system though, for example partially refunding paid gas taxes to people who do not live in a city.

Aaaah. Postcode taxing. Nice.

Where would you draw the line between city and not-city? Could two neighbours end up paying different rates for living in different locales?


smellysocks12
Then again, that would bring such high administrative costs that it would probably be better to scrap the gas taxes all together.

Yes, it probably would.
 
I think the government should tax you guys higher to be honest. Just to:

A: Slow your cars down.
B:Force manufacturers to increase the mpg out of the engines on offer.

This in turn could lead to less youngstars having more powerful cars than they can handle and conserving fuel.
 
Young_Warrior
I think the government should tax you guys higher to be honest. Just to:

A: Slow your cars down.
B:Force manufacturers to increase the mpg out of the engines on offer.

This in turn could lead to less youngstars having more powerful cars than they can handle and conserving fuel.


A) Young people often go rediculously fast even in econo cars.
B) Trust the commodities traders to figure out who much oil is worth.
 
about public transit...

it will never cost less the driving a personal car. never. here it costs 75 cents to get on a bus (we dont have subways.) i used to have to go to school all the way across town. i'd say it would have been 4-6 miles depending what route you took. i took the bus, had to transfer half way through and it took about an hour each way to get where i was going. now, if i had had a car at the time, i coudl have simply gotten on the highway and been there in 10-15 minutes depending on traffic. when gas costs about $2.10 a gallon like it is now and i was paying about $1.25-$1.50 a day to ride the bus... which do you think is better? the car i own today gets about 35mpg and has an 11 gallon tank. that is 385 miles to a tank. with gas costing $2.10 now a tank costs $23.10. riding the bus 8 times a week (4 each way) at a cost of $1.50 a day leads to about 27 dollars a month if one would take the bus 18 days.

this is not to mention the fact that we love our cars. i dont EVER want to give up that freedom.

now all my numbers dont take into accont possible work that may or may not need to be done to the car as this is generaly something that jsut pops up and can not be takin into account unless a fixed amount is used over a period of time to account for those possible costs which is not only inaccurate to the cost but may not even be needed.

this also does not take into account automotive insurance. we wont get into how the insurance company rape their customers right now though... and since the price is different per person it would also be hard to take this into account without having a generalized amount which i wont do for the same reasons i have not included what i have just explained in before this.

to add on top of the costs, how clean a personal car vs. public transit is... one can not really make an accurite call on this as some peoples cars look like garbage dumps. if one would simply say that a person keeps their car neat and tidy (i.e no food wrappers, lose change, papers and such things) it is clear to see the benifits of using personal transport. the bus's i had to ride we rather dirty. gum everywhere, never washed and only sometimes swept...

this leads into personal trasport being safer in times of sickness as well. if one drives their own car alone there is no risk of catching a cold or what have you. BUT if one takes a bus with 20 people in january with half of them coughing... its clear the possible risks.
 
Well, as long as we're trying to figure out what life will be like as we make the transition to a world with no more cheap, plentiful oil, I might as well post this apocalyptic, tectonic plate-shifting, end-of-civilization-as-we-know-it view of what might go down in the U.S.

It isn't pretty. Its the text of a speech given last January by the writer James Howard Kunstler. This guy is Mr. Negative. Think of him as the "anti-danoff".

His rant is based on the premise that the U.S. was built on cheap oil, and it will essentially collapse without it, or, at the very least, change into a very different nation. He doesn't see us getting by as anything like what we are now without it.

See what you think. Is he completely full of crap, is he partially right, or is he pretty much correct?





My last three books were concerned with the physical arrangement of life in our nation, in particular suburban sprawl, the most destructive development pattern the world has ever seen, and perhaps the greatest misallocation of resources the world has ever known. The world - and of course the US - now faces an epochal predicament: the global oil production peak and the arc of depletion that follows. We are unprepared for this crisis of industrial civilization. We are sleepwalking into the future.

The global peak oil production event will change everything about how we live. It will challenge all of our assumptions. It will compel us to do things differently - whether we like it or not.

Nobody knows for sure when the absolute peak year of global oil production will occur. You can only tell for sure in the "rear-view mirror," seeing the data after the fact. The US oil production peak in 1970 was not really recognized until the numbers came in over the next couple of years. By 1973 it was pretty clear that US oil production was in decline - the numbers were there for anyone to see, because the US oil industry was fairly transparent. They had to report their production to regulatory agencies. And low and behold American production was going down - despite the fact that we were selling more cars and more suburban houses. Of course we had been making up for falling production by increasing our oil imports.

1973 was the year of the Yom Kippur War. With encouragement from the old Soviet Union, Syria and Egypt ganged up on Israel and after a rough start, Israel kicked their asses. The Islamic world was very ticked off - especially at the assistance that the US had given Israel in airlifted military equipment. So a lot of pressure was brought to bear on the leaders of the Arab oil states to punish the US and we got the famous OPEC embargo of 1973.

But it was more than that. The OPEC embargo was effective precisely because it was now recognized by everybody that the US had passed its all time oil production peak. We no longer had surplus capacity. We weren't the swing producer anymore, OPEC was. We were pumping flat-out just to stay in place, and depending on imports to make up for the rest.

That was a tectonic shift in world economics.

That's exactly when OPEC seized pricing control of the oil markets. We had a very rough decade. 20 percent interest rates. "Stagflation." High unemployment. Stock market in the toilet.

We had a second oil crisis in 1979 when the shah of Iran was overthrown. The 1970s closed on a note of desperation. Everything we did in America was tied to oil and foreigners were jerking our economy around, and it led the worst recession since the 1930s.

But we got over it and a lot of Americans drew the false conclusion that the these oil crises were a shuck and jive on the part of business and Arab oil sheiks.

How did we get over it? The oil crises of the 70s prompted a frantic era of drilling, and the last great oil discoveries came on line in the 1980s - chiefly the North Sea fields of England and Norway, and the Alaska fields of the North Slope and Prudhoe Bay. They literally saved the west's ass for 20 years. In fact, so much oil flowed out of them that the markets were glutted, and by the era of Bill Clinton, oil prices were headed down to as low as $10 a barrel.

It was all an illusion. The North Sea and Alaska are now well into depletion - they were drilled with the newest technology and - guess what - we depleted them more efficiently! England is now becoming a new oil importer again after a 20 year fiesta. The implications are very grim.

Now, some of the most knowledgeable geologists in the world believe we have reached the global oil production peak. Unlike the US oil industry, the foreign producers do not give out their production data so transparently. We may never actually see any reliable figures. The global production peak may only show up in the strange behavior of the markets.

The global peak is liable to manifest as a "bumpy plateau." Prices will wobble. Markets will wobble - as the oil markets have been doing the past year. International friction will increase, especially around the places where the oil is - and two-thirds of the world's remaining oil is in the states around the Persian Gulf where, every week, a half dozen US soldiers and many more Iraqis are getting blown up, beheaded, or shot.

The "bumpy plateau" is where all kind of market signals and political signals are telling you that "something is happening, Mr. Jones, but you don't know what it is." We'll only know in the rear-view mirror.

As of the past 12 months, Saudi Arabia seems to have lost the ability to function as 'swing producer.' The swing producer is the one with a lot of excess supply, who can just open the valves and let more oil out on the world markets, which inevitably drives the price down. Saudi Arabia has kept saying they would produce a million more barrels a day, but there's no evidence that they really have.

Well, the good news is that Saudi Arabia and OPEC can no longer set the price of oil. The bad news is that nobody can. When there is no production surplus in the world, that's a pretty good sign that the world is at peak.

Princeton Geologist Kenneth Deffeyes says that peak production will occur in 2005. We're there. Others, like Colin Campbell, former chief geologist for Shell Oil, put it more conservatively as between now and 2007. But by any measure of rational planning or policy-making, these differences are insignificant.

The meaning of the oil peak and its enormous implications are generally misunderstood even by those who have heard about it - and this includes the mainstream corporate media and the Americans who make plans or policy.

The world does not have to run out of oil or natural gas for severe instabilities, network breakdowns, and systems failures to occur. All that is necessary is for world production capacity to reach its absolute limit - a point at which no increased production is possible and the long arc of depletion commences, with oil production then falling by a few percentages steadily every year thereafter. That's the global oil peak: the end of absolute increased production and beginning of absolute declining production.

And, of course, as global oil production begins to steadily decline, year after year, the world population is only going to keep growing - at least for a while - and demand for oil will remain very robust. The demand line of the graph will pass the production line, and in doing so will set in motion all kinds of problems in the systems we rely on for daily life.

One huge implication of the oil peak is that industrial societies will never again enjoy the 2 to 7 percent annual economic growth that has been considered healthy for over 100 years. This amounts to the industrialized nations of the world finding themselves in a permanent depression.

Long before the oil actually depletes we will endure world-shaking political disturbances and economic disruptions. We will see globalism-in-reverse. Globalism was never an 'ism,' by the way. It was not a belief system. It was a manifestation of the 20-year-final-blowout of cheap oil. Like all economic distortions, it produced economic perversions. It allowed gigantic, predatory organisms like WalMart to spawn and reproduce at the expense of more cellular fine-grained economic communities.

The end of globalism will be hastened by international competition over the world's richest oil-producing regions.

We are already seeing the first military adventures over oil as the US attempts to pacify the Middle East in order to assure future supplies. This is by no means a project we can feel confident about. The Iraq war has only been the overture to more desperate contests ahead. Bear in mind that the most rapidly industrializing nation in the world, China, is geographically closer to Caspian Region and the Middle East than we are. The Chinese can walk into these regions, and someday they just might.

In any case, and apart from the likelihood of military mischief, as the world passes the petroleum peak the global oil markets will destabilize and the industrial nations will have enormous problems with both price and supply. The effect on currencies and international finance will, of course, be equally severe.

Some of you may be aware that the US faces an imminent crisis with natural gas, at least as threatening as the problems we face over oil. By natural gas I mean methane, the stuff we run our furnaces and kitchen stoves on.

Over the past two decades - in response to the OPEC embargoes of the 70s and the Chernobyl and Three Mile Island emergencies of the 80s -- we have so excessively shifted our electric power generation to dependence on natural gas that no amount of drilling can keep up with current demand. The situation is very ominous now.

The United States, indeed North America, including Canada and Mexico, is technically way past peak production in natural gas and there is a special problem with gas that you don't have with oil: you tend to get your gas from the continent you are on. It comes out of the ground and is distributed around the continent in a pipeline network.

If you have to get your natural gas from another continent, it has to be compressed at low temperature, transported in special ships with pressurized tanks, and delivered to special terminals where it is re-gasified. All this is tremendously more expensive than what we do now. Moreover, there are very few natural gas port terminals in the US and nobody wants them built anywhere near them because they are dangerous. They can blow up. We have been making up for our shortfall in gas in recent years by buying a lot of gas from Canada. The NAFTA treaty compels them to sell us their gas, and they are technically in depletion too. They're not happy about this.

About half the houses in America are heated with natural gas. Nobody know what we are going to do when the depletion arc gets steeper.

Oh, another problem with gas. The wells run dry just like this (snap!). Unlike oil wells, which go from gusher to steady stream to declining stream, gas wells either put out gas or they stop. And there's no warning when they are close to running out. Because, the gas is coming out of the ground under its own pressure. As the gas wells of North America continue to deplete, we will have little warning

Right here I am compelled to inform you that the prospects for alternative fuels are poor. We suffer from a kind of Jiminy Cricket syndrome in this country. We believe that if you wish for something, it will come true. Right now a lot of people - including people who ought to know better - are wishing for some miracle technology to save our collective ass.

There is not going to be a hydrogen economy. The hydrogen economy is a fantasy. It is not going to happen. We may be able to run a very few things on hydrogen - but we are not going to replace the entire US automobile fleet with hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Nor will we replace the current car fleet with electric cars or natural gas cars. We're just going to use cars a lot less. Fewer trips. Cars will be a diminished presence in our lives. Not to mention the political problem that kicks in when car ownership and driving becomes incrementally a more elite activity. The mass motoring society worked because it was so profoundly democratic. Practically anybody in America could participate, from the lowliest shlub mopping the floor at Pizza Hut to Bill Gates. What happens when it is no longer so democratic? And what is the tipping point at which it becomes a matter of political resentment: 12 percent? 23 percent? 38 percent?

Wind power and solar electric will not produce significant amounts of power within the context of the way we live now.

Ethanol and bio-deisel are a joke. They require more energy to produce than they give back. You know how you get ethanol: you produce massive amounts of corn using huge oil and gas 'inputs' of fertilizer and pesticide and then you use a lot more energy to turn the corn into ethanol. It's a joke.

No combination of alternative fuel systems currently known will allow us to run what we are running, the way we're running it, or even a substantial fraction of it.

The future is therefore telling us very loudly that we will have to change the way we live in this country. The implications are clear: we will have to downscale and re-scale virtually everything we do.

The downscaling of America is a tremendous and inescapable project. It is the master ecological project of our time. We will have to do it whether we like it or not. We are not prepared.

Downscaling America doesn't mean we become a lesser people. It means that the scale at which we conduct the work of American daily life will have to be adjusted to fit the requirements of a post-globalist, post-cheap-oil age.

We are going to have to live a lot more locally and a lot more intensively on that local level. Industrial agriculture, as represented by the Archer Daniels Midland / soda pop and cheez doodle model of doing things, will not survive the end of the cheap oil economy. The implication of this is enormous. Successful human ecologies in the near future will have to be supported by intensively farmed agricultural hinterlands. Places that can't do this will fail. Say goodbye to Phoenix and Las Vegas.

I'm not optimistic about most of our big cities. They are going to have to contract severely. They achieved their current scale during the most exuberant years of the cheap oil fiesta, and they will have enormous problems remaining viable afterward. Any mega-structure, whether it is a skyscraper or a landscraper - buildings that depend on huge amounts of natural gas and electricity - may not be usable a decade or two in the future.

What goes for the scale of places will be equally true for the scale of social organization. All large-scale enterprises, including many types of corporations and governments will function very poorly in the post-cheap oil world. Do not make assumptions based on things like national chain retail continuing to exist as it has.

Wal Mart is finished. [More below]

Many of my friends and colleagues live in fear of the federal government turning into Big Brother tyranny. I'm skeptical. Once the permanent global energy crisis really gets underway, the federal government will be lucky if it can answer the phones. Same thing for Microsoft or even the Hannaford supermarket chain.

All indications are that American life will have to be reconstituted along the lines of traditional towns, villages, and cities much reduced in their current scale. These will be the most successful places once we are gripped by the profound challenge of a permanent reduced energy supply.

The land development industry as we have known it is going to vanish in the years ahead. The production home-builders, as they like to call themselves. The strip mall developers. The fried food shack developers. Say goodbye to all that.

We are entering a period of economic hardship and declining incomes. The increment of new development will be very small, probably the individual building lot. The suburbs as are going to tank spectacularly. We are going to see an unprecedented loss of equity value and, of course, basic usefulness. We are going to see an amazing distress sale of properties, with few buyers. We're going to see a fight over the table scraps of the 20th century. We'll be lucky if the immense failure of suburbia doesn't result in an extreme political orgy of grievance and scapegoating.

The action in the years ahead will be in renovating existing towns and villages, and connecting them with regions of productive agriculture. Where the big cities are concerned, there is simply no historical precedent for the downscaling they will require. The possibilities for social and political distress ought to be obvious, though. The process is liable to be painful and disorderly.

The post cheap oil future will be much more about staying where you are than about being mobile. And, unless we rebuild a US passenger railroad network,a lot of people will not be going anywhere. Today, we have a passenger railroad system that the Bulgarians would be ashamed of.

Don't make too many plans to design parking structures. The post cheap oil world is not going to be about parking, either.

But it will be about the design and assembly and reconstituting of places that are worth caring about and worth being in. When you have to stay where you are and live locally, you will pay a lot more attention to the quality of your surroundings, especially if you are not moving through the landscape at 50 miles-per-hour.

Some regions of the country will do better than others. The sunbelt will suffer in exact proportion to the degree that it prospered artificially during the cheap oil blowout of the late 20th century. I predict that the Southwest will become substantially depopulated, since they will be short of water as well as gasoline and natural gas. I'm not optimistic about the Southeast either, for different reasons. I think it will be subject to substantial levels of violence as the grievances of the formerly middle class boil over and combine with the delusions of Pentecostal Christian extremism.

All regions of the nation will be affected by the vicissitudes of this Long Emergency, but I think New England and the Upper Midwest have somewhat better prospects. I regard them as less likely to fall into lawlessness, anarchy, or despotism, and more likely to salvage the bits and pieces of our best social traditions and keep them in operation at some level.

There is a fair chance that the nation will disaggregate into autonomous regions before the 21st century is over, as a practical matter if not officially. Life will be very local.

These challenges are immense. We will have to rebuild local networks of economic and social relations that we allowed to be systematically dismantled over the past fifty years. In the process, our communities may be able to reconstitute themselves.

The economy of the mid 21st century may center on agriculture. Not information. Not the digital manipulation of pictures, not services like selling cheeseburgers and entertaining tourists. Farming. Food production. The transition to this will be traumatic, given the destructive land-use practices of our time, and the staggering loss of knowledge. We will be lucky if we can feed ourselves.

The age of the 3000-mile-caesar salad will soon be over. Food production based on massive petroleum inputs, on intensive irrigation, on gigantic factory farms in just a few parts of the nation, and dependent on cheap trucking will not continue. We will have to produce at least some of our food closer to home. We will have to do it with fewer fossil-fuel-based fertilizers and pesticides on smaller-scaled farms. Farming will have to be much more labor-intensive than it is now. We will see the return of an entire vanished social class - the homegrown American farm laboring class.

We are going to have to reorganize everyday commerce in this nation from the ground up. The whole system of continental-scale big box discount and chain store shopping is headed for extinction, and sooner than you might think. It will go down fast and hard. Americans will be astonished when it happens.

Operations like WalMart have enjoyed economies of scale that were attained because of very special and anomalous historical circumstances: a half century of relative peace between great powers. And cheap oil - absolutely reliable supplies of it, since the OPEC disruptions of the 1970s.

WalMart and its imitators will not survive the oil market disruptions to come. Not even for a little while. WalMart will not survive when its merchandise supply chains to Asia are interrupted by military contests over oil or internal conflict in the nations that have been supplying us with ultra-cheap manufactured goods. WalMart's "warehouse on wheels" will not be able to operate in a non-cheap oil economy

It will only take mild-to-moderate disruptions in the supply and price of gas to put WalMart and all operations like it out of business. And it will happen. As that occurs, America will have to make other arrangements for the distribution and sale of ordinary products.

It will have to be reorganized at the regional and the local scale. It will have to be based on moving merchandise shorter distances at multiple increments and probably by multiple modes of transport. It is almost certain to result in higher costs for the things we buy, and fewer choices of things. We are not going to rebuild the cheap oil manufacturing facilities of the 20th century.

We will have to recreate the lost infrastructures of local and regional commerce, and it will have to be multi-layered. These were the people that WalMart systematically put out of business over the last thirty years. The wholesalers, the jobbers, the small-retailers. They were economic participants in their communities; they made decisions that had to take the needs of their communities into account. they were employers who employed their neighbors. They were a substantial part of the middle-class of every community in America and all of them together played civic roles in our communities as the caretakers of institutions - the people who sat on the library boards, and the hospital boards, and bought the balls and bats and uniforms for the little league teams. We got rid of them in order to save nine bucks on a hair dryer. We threw away uncountable millions of dollars worth of civic amenity in order to shop at the Big Box discount stores. That was some bargain. This will all change. The future is telling us to prepare to do business locally again. It will not be a hyper-turbo-consumer economy. That will be over with. But we will still make things, and buy and sell things.

A lot of the knowledge needed to do local retail has been lost, because in the past the ownership of local retail businesses was often done by families. The knowledge and skills for doing it was transmitted from one generation to the next. It will not be so easy to get that back. But we have to do it.

Education is another system that will probably have to change. Our centralized schools are too big and too dependent on fleets of buses. Children will have to live closer to the schools they attend. School will have to be reorganized on a neighborhood basis, at a much smaller scale, in smaller buildings -- and they will not look like medium security prisons.

The psychology of previous investment is a huge obstacle to the reform of education. We poured fifty years of our national wealth into gigantic sprawling centralized schools - but that investment itself does not guarantee that these schools will be able to function in a future that works very differently. In the years ahead college will no longer be just another "consumer product." Fewer people will go to them. They will probably revert to their former status as elite institutions, whether we like it or not. Many of them will close altogether.

Change is coming whether we like it or not; whether we are prepared for it or not. If we don't begin right away to make better choices then we will face political, social, and economic disorders that will shake this nation to its foundation.

I hope you will go back to your offices and classrooms and workplaces with these ideas in mind and think about what your roles will be in this challenging future. Good luck. Prepare for a different America, perhaps a better America. And prepare to be good neighbors.
 
^^ This guy has a basic lack of understanding of economics and a lot of hatred. He has hatred for WalMart, that's for sure, in addition to a hatred of freedom and luxury. You can tell by the way this guy writes that he's just dying for everyone to suffer... he wants society to crumble back to some past time period where he feels it was better.

It's not going to happen.

I think it's funny how he points to the Iraq war as evidence that oil is running out. It's funny because it doesn't support his conclusions.

But more than anything, this guy has no faith in the human mind. He has drawn conclusions that simply can't be supported. Conclusions like, hydrogen is a joke, or that electric cars won't work. His evidence for this? What evidence?

I like his discussion of the "methane crisis" as well... I don't think so. Methane is a redily abundant renewable resource. Oops, just created a little methane right now.

Let's pretend that peak oil has happend.... so what? Prices go up. That means people find ways around using as much oil. That's ok, there are cars now that use a huge percentage less gasoline than used to. Maybe people won't keep the furnace as high. So what? Big deal.

We are going to see some changes, but his notion of the elimination of cars and localization is ridiculous. He talks about an economy based less on information and more on farming... how ludicrous. Like a lack of oil is going to take down the internet, radio, and television. It might make food cost a little more... it might mean that you don't buy food that has been imported as much because it costs a bit more. But that doesn't mean that people are going to pack up shop and start farming.

He's lazy about his economics too. Blaming all economic problems that have occured in the last 30 years on oil availabity. That's downright misleading. He has to be aware that he's wrong on that one.
 
what a crock of **** that is. i wish i hadnt read that. his ideas on alternative energy sourses is nuts. saying that large store chains will go out of bussiness because of higher gas prices? wtf? farming being all powerfull, large citys shrinking and more small towns poping up with more local supply chain? WTF? this guy is nuts. just nuts. he made some decent points in the begining of all that crap but, just like he said the world is going to do, he quickly turned to crap.

i'm not listening to his bull****. we as a people will make alternative energy sources. electricity, hydrogen, wind and solar power are all very good. not to mention we already have decent nuclear technology. the only thing i'm even a bit worried about is not being able to afford to drive 30+ years from now.
 
danoff
...This guy has a basic lack of understanding of economics and a lot of hatred...You can tell by the way this guy writes that he's just dying for everyone to suffer... he wants society to crumble back to some past time period where he feels it was better...

Yeah, he's pretty gleeful about his portents of doom, isn't he? He seems to look forward to us all becoming farm laborers again.

I agree that he's full of crap, but I wonder if he's really so very wrong about giant retail chains? They're extremely dependent on inexpensive means of transportation, and as that becomes more of an issue, will they be able to maintain their price advantages?
 
danoff
Let's pretend that peak oil has happend.... so what? Prices go up. That means people find ways around using as much oil. That's ok, there are cars now that use a huge percentage less gasoline than used to. Maybe people won't keep the furnace as high. So what? Big deal.

We are going to see some changes, but his notion of the elimination of cars and localization is ridiculous. He talks about an economy based less on information and more on farming... how ludicrous. Like a lack of oil is going to take down the internet, radio, and television. It might make food cost a little more... it might mean that you don't buy food that has been imported as much because it costs a bit more. But that doesn't mean that people are going to pack up shop and start farming.

Dan, I have a question for you:

How can we make demand for oil more elastic?
 
Zardoz
If you're not very old, you've been robbed.

If you're in your twenties, or you're younger, your future has been stolen from you. You and your children, and especially your grandchildren, are going to live very different lives from those of us who have come before you, and "different" is not going to mean "better".

This is exactly the kind of crap that makes me really angry. Let me tell you something : "different" is going to mean better. How do I know this, without any facts to prove it? Because contrary to what you believe, humans are capable of great things. Look how much more advanced we are now compared to 100 or even 50 years ago. You seem to think we have peaked as far as innovation is concerned, just because our main source of energy is starting to dwindle. Maybe you are not aware of this, but there are intelligent people like me studying how energy works, how it could be obtained, and how it could be used more efficiently. Are we full of pipe-dreams that will never come to fruition? Hell no. Get off your sorry-horse and realize that. And you know what? There WILL be a smooth transition away from oil. To most, it seems like the leap from oil-based transportation to, let's say, an H2 fuel-cell based sector is a huge one and cannot be implemented smoothly. Wrong. You can run a fuel cell on hydrogen, but you can also run them on methane, methanol, ethane, ethanol, nitrozene, and a host of others. Many of these fuels can be made from refuse in our landfills, obtained directly from the ground, or synthesized from natural gas (methane). So, once oil is "gone" we can start driving around in fuel-cell cars powered essentially by natural gas. Granted, it's also a non-renewable fossil fuel, but it will ease the demand on oil, and buy us several decades to further refine the technology. So you don't think humankind can do this in time? Go ask people in the 1950's if they could even imagine every bit of new technology we have now, in 2005.
 
kylehnat
...Let me tell you something : "different" is going to mean better...

Sure hope so, but it depends on how quickly we can develop the new technologies and get them implemented. What everybody is afraid of is a sudden shortage of oil creating catastrophic effects before we can make the transition.

Remember, the incredible world of comfort and convenience we're so lucky to live in really has been built on cheap oil. Of course we won't lose it all at once, but we need to start making progress on the alternatives a lot faster than we're doing now.

The hopeful sign is that a lot of people seem to be waking up to the possibility that things could be changing a ton faster than we thought they would.
 
danoff
Raise the price.

Didn't work.

Anything else?

Let me elaborate:

Demand is high because it's inelastic. In other words, a large increase in price causes a small decrease in consumption.

Raising the price will not have a signficant effect on the elasticity of demand -- unless you're talking about pricing people out of the market entirely.
 
Okay, to everybody jumping on Zardoz, geddoffit.

In regards the the Hunstler speech:

re: WalMart and multinationals: This, basically, is true. Most multinational corporations depend on cheap transportation to justify spreading out industrialized processes all over the planet. When you spend less on transportation than on labor, this makes sense, but as transportation becomes more and more expensive, the advantage starts going to smaller scale businesses and enterprises, ones not hindered by having to maintain such a complicated network, one created by corporations avoiding high local wages and creating new factories in strategic markets for tax breaks and market share. (I should know, I LIVE in one of those "strategic markets".

True, the hydrogen economy is FALSE. Hydrogen requires such a big investment in terms of infrastructure, and Hydrogen production requires energy input, from solar, wind, geothermal or hydrocarbon sources. Fuel cells are still ridiculuously expensive. I give it ten to twenty years before we get semi-affordable fuel cells.

It's like the battery issue. It's taken thirty years or so to come out with relatively affordable and powerful batteries (GM's EV1 batteries are a joke compared to some of the newer ones), but we're STILL paying a premium for hybrids (those of us who can get them), battery production can't keep up with demand, and even the new-ish high demand for hybrids isn't bringing down costs (thank Toyota for subsidizing you guys, Prius owners), and the electric systems are still dependent on petroleum fueled engines.

I do agree that the suburbs were a waste. It's again economies of scale that make no practical sense. I don't see cities dying, as such, though... that's a bit too apocalyptic. A switch to renewables, solar and wind, for skyscrapers, is a possibility, as well as introducing more efficient wiring and plumbing systems and less wasteage. To maintain our level of techno-industrial development, cities will have to become more compact... less suburban sprawl and more people living in high-rises.

Bio-fuels are expensive in a western sense because European and American farming are expensive... using a LOT of machinery (petroleum fueled) and chemicals (dependent on industrial based). Bio-fuels are still possible in Asia, with cheaper agriculture and more undeveloped land.

Unlike Hunstler, I believe information technology is still pivotal in societal development, especially if there is a trending towards agriculture-based energy and production. The infrastructure is in place, and it will play a huge role in the development and refinement of agricultural and production techniques. Simply put, technological development will move from the physical to the digital. With computer design and modelling, we can still come up with some neat stuff without the major physical investment that industries and corporations put into development now... heck, this is already happening for automakers and engineers.

The days of an automobile as an appliance and as a moving piece of real-estate are numbered. They'll continue on only if there is a shift towards a more utilitarian view of the auto. Please, make them smaller, lighter and cheaper. Forget all the electronic crap and toys that make them expensive. Put in a simple ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) that'll run on almost anything, four wheels of long lasting rubber (no heavy rims, please) and a generator-capacitor set-up. period. The automobile is too useful to lose, even for farming communities, and transportation is important in maintaining links between diverse communities.

It won't be a toy anymore, though. :( And yes, not everyone will be able to own one.

@Young Warrior: Public transportation isn't the only solution. My company runs a bus fleet, and you'd be surprised how much derv they guzzle in traffic. Buses and trains contribute a lot to pollution, and electric trains (which are much better) still rely on the local power grid, which still relies on "dirty" power plants.

The idea of road-trains seems to be the right direction. Individually powered cars linked together for long hauls, then separating once near their destination. With less unused capacity (fewer passengers? take off a few cars), they make more sense than the humongous steel beasts we run now.
 
Young_Warrior
Nearly 90p in some places per litre.

So to put that in perspective to fill up a medium sized saloon from near enough empty it would cost a person £100 US dollars.
You do realize that the taxes paid on that tank of gas are more than the price of the petrol itself?
 
Oh, before everyone thinks I'm all for Hunstler's ideas:

Small scale education isn't the way to go. It's a waste of manpower. In an ideal educational system, small scale is good, with more teachers per student and more attention paid to each learner. But I think it is better to split education duties between computers and mentors at a medium scale institution.

Also, the most radical change in the educational system will be a shift away from traditional western curriculums to more output-based education. Children learn what they need to know FIRST, then learn about their history, background and culture after. In the future, twenty years will be a ridiculuously long time for anyone to stay a student.
 
we covered that a bit already duke. its something like 70% someone said.

True, the hydrogen economy is FALSE. Hydrogen requires such a big investment in terms of infrastructure, and Hydrogen production requires energy input, from solar, wind, geothermal or hydrocarbon sources. Fuel cells are still ridiculuously expensive. I give it ten to twenty years before we get semi-affordable fuel cells.

false is not a good word to use. its a very realistice idea for the future. the problem like you said is the massive cost of the infrastructure and such. these things it is said will be out by 2015 or so though. i think they are very promising.

Children learn what they need to know FIRST, then learn about their history, background and culture after.

education has nothing to do with oil and energy but since its been brought up... those three things you've just said are extreamly importent. algebra can come later :ill:
 
Well, I ought to retract that... sorry... I meant that at an adult level, the sheer load of useless classes in the curriculum make it difficult and expensive to get a college or masters degree required for certain professions. Children SHOULD learn history, society and culture. Sorry.

It's just frustrating. We could get doctors and dentists out of school in three or four years (not the seven to ten years it takes now) and into a mentoring program where they'd learn most of what they need to know. Same goes for engineering or automotive engineering. A classroom will give you the fundamentals, but if you stay there too long, you end up old and inexperienced... two things which are bad for the workforce.

P.S.: I just brought up education because of the Hunstler report Zardoz posted. Huntsler may think he knows economy and oil, but he needs to be more exact about education. :)

As for hydrogen, the problem of storage is a very big one. Current fuel cell matrices rely on expensive materials. Like I've said, even with the technology available NOW to build electric cars (which used to be "the answer" before the hydrogen kick took hold), they're still expensive to build and hard to supply in high volume.

But then, electrics are starting to make more and more sense, as batteries are getting smaller and more powerful... capacitors, too. And new construction methods, materials, and engine design make them more efficient.

Problem is, people are looking for esoteric solutions instead of simple ones. Simple economics, please. Hydrogen works in rich countries which can afford to build the infrastructure. That still leaves the rest of us poor and reliant on a fickle supply of fossil fuels (both oil and nat-gas) and bio-fuels. And when the fossil fuel suppy runs out, what supports the high-tech and high-cost hydrogen system?
 
we really dont need to worry to much about it running out any time soon. it will slowly go down each year picking up speed as it goes but it wont run out totaly for a long time. by the time we have no oil left we will all be complaing about the cost of hydrogen at the pumps.

now as you say, right now, it costs way to much to not only maintain the car but there is the whole infrastructure to build. this isnt as big a problem as it sounds though. these cars wont be sold on a large scale for at least another decade. this time will be used to profect the technology and build the infrastructure. if we tried to use them now on a large scale it wouldnt work but given time (that we DO have) it will work. there are great things happening out there.
 
I was trying to get some info on motorcycle gas mileage, and was puzzled why there wasn't any available. Then I found this forum, and I found out why:

http://www.mcnews.com/anforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=94153

Bikes don't actually get very good mileage because of their lousy aerodynamics. Apparently, even little 200 cc machines are hard-pressed to get 60 MPG at highway speeds. Big bikes average something under 40. That's no good at all. A Honda Insight will get 60 MPG.

So much for motorcycles being much of a solution...
 
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