Ancient History, Ancient Mystery

[Rallywagon]

They cover the site and it's possible meaning as a place in much detail - I'll look for some direct references for you. Be warned that they may not say "handbags"



All those assessments are worthy of consideration in terms of art of any age, ancient art is certainly no exception. However, Von Petzinger's lack of research into commonalities between autistic art and the cave art doesn't preclude the possibility that other researchers may do so. Read the paper I linked and see what you think. That author has done a lot of interesting (and well-supported) work in the field

Didn't the authors in the paper you linked end up dropping the autism aspect after much refutation?

 

[TenEightyOne]

Didn't the authors in the paper you linked end up dropping the autism aspect after much refutation?

No.

 

[Rallywagon]

No.

Well, maybe not explicitly, but they certain did concede the fact that it may not be autistic individuals that created the art. That it could be done by those that may have traits that are shared by those with autism.
"Does this mean that talented individuals with ASC created some of the most exceptional depictions
in European Upper Palaeolithic art? Not necessarily. Exceptional precocious talent in realistic depiction,
associated with other traits such as focus on detail or overlapping forms, is also, rarely, seen outside of
autism. ‘Autistic traits’ are thus something of a misnomer, with their explanation rightly lying beyond an
extreme focus on ASC themselves.
Our closer consideration of the cognitive factors behind exceptional realism and other traits of autism
such as overlapping forms and precise detail, alongside our detailed large scale population survey, suggests
that the explanation for ‘autistic traits’ in Upper Palaeolithic art lies in local processing bias (and detail-
focus). Local processing bias is a cognitive bias which is very common in ASC, but also present in some
individuals without the condition."

 

[Dotini]

Discoveries at Texas Archaeology Site Push Back Early Human Arrivals in North America

snippet:

...“things keep getting older.” That is to say, of course, that archaeologists continue to find more and more evidence for earlier occupations in the New World, as well as advanced behaviors and engineering among early cultures...

In equal measure to the idea that we’re constantly finding broad evidence for things that, at one time, might have seemed historically out of place, it is also important to make the observation that part of what has led to these new discoveries in the first place has been a fundamental change in thinking.

On a number of occasions at American dig sites I’ve visited where pre-Clovis artifacts ended up being recovered, archaeologists have expressed to me that while such discoveries had been there all along, they were essentially kept hidden for as long as they were by one simple fact: that there had been an expectation nothing would be found below the Clovis horizon. Once archaeologists began pressing on and exploring deeper strata, many were shocked to find evidence of much earlier occupations than previously expected; and inevitably, many were also criticized for presenting these discoveries, even when reliable scientific evidence to account for their provenance was offered.

People are often slow to accept new ideas

https://mysteriousuniverse.org/2018...h-back-early-human-arrivals-in-north-america/

 

[Dotini]

Stone rings found on floor of Aegean Sea by Robert Ballard. Diameter 40 meters, depth sufficient to indicate an origin over 12,800 years ago.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Stone rings found on floor of Aegean Sea by Robert Ballard. Diameter 40 meters, depth sufficient to indicate an origin over 12,800 years ago.

Although the original Ballard report suggests submarine explosive activity, does it not? That's in your link, as is the assertion that the formation can't be dated.

 

[Dotini]

Although the original Ballard report suggests submarine explosive activity, does it not? That's in your link, as is the assertion that the formation can't be dated.

Are you suggesting it was built after the area flooded at the end of the Ice Age?

 

[TenEightyOne]

Are you suggesting it was built after the area flooded at the end of the Ice Age?

I'm just following the original 2010 suggestion that it wasn't built. Did you read your link?

EDIT: Here's an excerpt from the larger document. All 40 are roughly the same size, within 1km of the same depth-charged shipwreck.

 

[Dotini]

Okay, maybe 30 stone ring walls of 40 meters diameter with a central structure were made by 30 depth charges. What does a WWI depth charge look like? How powerful is it? How many were used during the battle? Are they known to assemble large blocks of stone into circular formations on the ocean floor elsewhere? Never heard of such a thing, but maybe. Maybe a whirlwind could assemble a 747 from parts in scrapyard, or a thousand monkeys typing for a thousand years could write Hamlet. Like Gobekli Tepe, traces of Paleolithic civilization will gradually be discovered, some of it through submarine archeology. These rings could be such, or maybe not. Time will tell.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Okay, maybe 30 stone ring walls of 40 meters diameter with a central structure were made by 30 depth charges. What does a WWI depth charge look like? How powerful is it? How many were used during the battle? Are they known to assemble large blocks of stone into circular formations on the ocean floor elsewhere? Never heard of such a thing, but maybe. Maybe a whirlwind could assemble a 747 from parts in scrapyard, or a thousand monkeys typing for a thousand years could write Hamlet. Like Gobekli Tepe, traces of Paleolithic civilization will gradually be discovered, some of it through submarine archeology. These rings could be such, or maybe not. Time will tell.

120lb or 300lb high explosive charges, according to Wiki. In answer to your question about if they can move stone... 300lbs of high explosive in relatively shallow water certainly could. The 'blocks of stone' aren't as large as you think if you look at the constructed images of the sites, they're conceivably bog-standard sea floor rocks.

 

[Dotini]

120lb or 300lb high explosive charges, according to Wiki. In answer to your question about if they can move stone... 300lbs of high explosive in relatively shallow water certainly could. The 'blocks of stone' aren't as large as you think if you look at the constructed images of the sites, they're conceivably bog-standard sea floor rocks.

Okay, maybe. Stones from the center could be blasted outward, but how could the stones outside the ring be blasted inward, into the ring?

 

[TenEightyOne]

Okay, maybe. Stones from the center could be blasted outward, but how could the stones outside the ring be blasted inward, into the ring?

If the explosive form is spherical then the rocks directly below it may have never moved. Craters with centre prominences aren't that unusual.

 

[Dotini]

If the explosive form is spherical then the rocks directly below it may have never moved. Craters with centre prominences aren't that unusual.

Yes, but the rings are not craters on the Moon. The seafloor was presumably randomly scattered with stones. The ring does not seem to be a crater in a field of stones, but a ring of stones gathered with the surface cleared both inside and outside the ring.

 

[Dotini]

World's oldest brewery?

Natufians brewed ceremonial beer 13,000 years ago in present-day Israel. They were hunter-gatherers, but also apparently on the leading edge of agriculture and domesticated grains. Might have been rites for the dead, so perhaps here we have altered states of consciousness (mild intoxication) associated with the roots of religion.

Archaeologists have found what they believe is the world's oldest site for alcohol production, a study said Thursday, adding the beer-like beverage may have been served in ceremonies some 13,000 years ago.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/drink-old-times-worlds-oldest-brewery-found-israel-160502336.html

 

[TenEightyOne]

World's oldest brewery?

Natufians brewed ceremonial beer 13,000 years ago in present-day Israel. They were hunter-gatherers, but also apparently on the leading edge of agriculture and domesticated grains. Might have been rites for the dead, so perhaps here we have altered states of consciousness (mild intoxication) associated with the roots of religion.

Archaeologists have found what they believe is the world's oldest site for alcohol production, a study said Thursday, adding the beer-like beverage may have been served in ceremonies some 13,000 years ago.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/drink-old-times-worlds-oldest-brewery-found-israel-160502336.html

Some 10 years ago (EDIT: 5-ish) Hayden, Canuel and Shanse wrote in an interesting paper in which they theorised that the demand for brewable grain led to domestication in Natufian society. The new paper seems to examine the ceremonial aspect a little more. It's worth considering that brewed 'water' was the norm for drinking right up to the 19th century in the west - it's bacteriologically cleaner and can be kept longer without going stale. And it's a lot more fun, obviously

 

[TenEightyOne]

A news story that you might be interested in, @Dotini. Egyptian archaeologists find Spinx at Aswan temple.

 

[PocketZeven]

A news story that you might be interested in, @Dotini. Egyptian archaeologists find Spinx at Aswan temple.

Just shows how the great sphinx's proportions are off a lot.

 

[Dotini]

Just shows how the great sphinx's proportions are off a lot.

Some people who study the sphinx - by no means all or even most - conclude the head we see was recarved from a larger head in remote antiquity, possibly being that of a lion, or maybe bull.

 

[PocketZeven]

Some people who study the sphinx - by no means all or even most - conclude the head we see was recarved from a larger head in remote antiquity, possibly being that of a lion, or maybe bull.

I have read about that. Theories vary of how the Sphinx may be remnants of a culture predating the egyptians.I am not a typical conspiracy theorist, but with the sphinx it does seem unlogical for a culture that built with such accuracy to build something of the size of the great sphinx that way.

 

[Dotini]

Archeology keeps pushing back in time the earliest megalithic structures, the earliest civilizations. On West Java island of present day Indonesia is Gunung Padang, an artificial structure with various layers and unexplored underground chambers, the eldest seemingly carbon-dating back to an astounding 28,000 years ago. It's still in use today as a place of prayer and meditation by locals. The original purpose of the construction is truly unknown, but the standard explanation of all such architectural mysteries is, "a temple".

The civilization that built this also is a question. But it's a good supposition that they were a seafaring people.

Gunung Padang

Using various techniques to peer underground, the researchers found several layers of the pyramid-like structure, with each layer representing a different period of time.
Credit: Danny Hilman Natawidjaja.

https://www.livescience.com/64320-hidden-temple-pyramid-java.html

https://mysteriousuniverse.org/2018...red-in-indonesia-is-more-than-9000-years-old/

 

[88GTA]

Have you looked into the Richat structure in Mauritania? Looks more and more likely to have been Atlantis.

 

[Dotini]

Have you looked into the Richat structure in Mauritania? Looks more and more likely to have been Atlantis.

Yeah, we have looked at that in the Atlantis Found thread elsewhere in the forum. I'm not too certain of the provenance of the world map attributed to Herodotus. And some forum members have complained that the cliffs north of the structure do not correspond adequately to Plato's descriptions of mountains to the north of the city of Atlantis (although the Atlas mountains are not far away). Other than that, it's an interesting candidate. The site is so remote that it has not been excavated by proper archeologists. Tourists and explorers have found lots of arrowheads, pottery and other Bronze Age artifacts at the center of the site, but no one seems to know their historical origin. The site awaits further study.

 

[PocketZeven]

Archeology keeps pushing back in time the earliest megalithic structures, the earliest civilizations. On West Java island of present day Indonesia is Gunung Padang, an artificial structure with various layers and unexplored underground chambers, the eldest seemingly carbon-dating back to an astounding 28,000 years ago. It's still in use today as a place of prayer and meditation by locals. The original purpose of the construction is truly unknown, but the standard explanation of all such architectural mysteries is, "a temple".

The civilization that built this also is a question. But it's a good supposition that they were a seafaring people.

Gunung Padang

Using various techniques to peer underground, the researchers found several layers of the pyramid-like structure, with each layer representing a different period of time.
Credit: Danny Hilman Natawidjaja.

https://www.livescience.com/64320-hidden-temple-pyramid-java.html

https://mysteriousuniverse.org/2018...red-in-indonesia-is-more-than-9000-years-old/

Reminds of those bosnian Pyramid claims a while back. Claims where made these dated back to 12000 BC.

 

[Joey D]

Have you looked into the Richat structure in Mauritania? Looks more and more likely to have been Atlantis.

Except it's a geological feature, not a manmade one.

 

[Dotini]

Except it's a geological feature, not a manmade one.

It's not thought to be a volcano or impact crater.

 

[Joey D]

It's not thought to be a volcano or impact crater.

I mean sure, but it is a dome. We have something like it here in Utah called the Upheaval Dome, it's just not nearly as big.

Nothing about the Richat Structure looks man-made, nor is there any archaeological evidence supporting it.

 

[Dotini]

From the wiki:

A 2011 multianalytical study on the Richat megabreccias concluded that carbonates within the silica-rich megabreccias were created by low-temperature hydrothermal waters, and that the structure requires special protection and further investigation of its origin.[14]

Whatever its origin, the site has evidence of massive erosion by water. Any structure built there by man millennia ago would have been washed away. Anyway, I too doubt this place is the legendary Atlantis.

I would prefer any more discussion regarding Atlantis be moved to the Atlantis thread.

 

[PocketZeven]

From the wiki:


Whatever its origin, the site has evidence of massive erosion by water. Any structure built there by man millennia ago would have been washed away. Anyway, I too doubt this place is the legendary Atlantis.

I would prefer any more discussion regarding Atlantis be moved to the Atlantis thread.

I dont mind posting in the atlantis thread further, but dont want to post out of context. I did some superficial research and watched some videos. The structure is most likely a natural occurance, however it isnt impossible for people to have settled there. It does have a source of fresh water and looking at the descriptions of Atlantis the similarities and coincidences seem compelling. Apparantly the structure is extremely remote, but it is worth investigating.

 

[Dotini]

Some of the more puzzling Gornaya Shoria megaliths.
My understanding is the area is so remote - over a hundred miles from the nearest road - that it has yet to be properly studied by experts.

If some or all these photos are real - some may be from other locations or hoaxed, I'm hoping to learn - then one would have a difficult time seriously believing they are purely geologic/weathered into their fit, form and shape. But if so, the difficult question arises - how then are they formed, shaped and fitted? There is no known ancient civilization of the Urals capable of working them, possibly excepting theorized prehistoric ancestors of today's Finns.

Some of the bigger blocks found here in the Urals are over twice as big and heavy as the recognized record holders of the world's heaviest megaliths, the 1200+ ton giants found at Baalbeck, Lebanon.

 

[Dotini]

Coneheads!

Found in Peru, dated to over 2000 years ago, had red hair and DNA associated to Crimea.