Anti-Aliasing for gt5p

[djcorrosive]

Reason why i am asking this question is cause i notice the Anti-Aliasing in games on the ps3 is really poor!

games like MGS4 and GT5p (especially gt5p) and a fair few others the shadows are really poor very jaggy and blocky!

Is this a issue cause the developers have not created them to run at the ps3's full power?

Or is it just plain and simple that the gfx card cannot handle such textures at all?


Do you think that PD are aware of it? and possibly could fix the shadow issues up?

Thank u.

 

[Marky264]

PD are definately aware of the subject. I wouldn't expect the problem to be as bad for the final GT5. Remember Prologue is NOT a finished game. I remember back at the E3 Show in 2007 where they showed us a trailer of the Mirrors not even functioning. It's done it steps I suppose but the shadows in Prologue are far from Finished in Prologue. For MGS4 can you show me an example because I thought the AA was at top to standard in that.

 

[DrTrouserPlank]

Yeah the AA is GT5P and a lot of other PS3 games is very poor to say the least. From what I understand Sony has made it so that the software developers are responsible for sorting out the AA rather than the console itself actually doing it; and from the looks of it, a lot of software developers can't be bothered with it. I think you'd have to go back 2 generations of console to find AA worse than what we have on some PS3 games.

 

[djcorrosive]

Hey marky, yeah i remember seeing screens of the mirror issue with prologue, reminded me of Mario on the first NES haha,
The AA on MGS4 are not Horribly done, but they are noticeable, when i play it next i shall take a few pics and show you,

TrouserPlank, Yeah you would think with the technology these days and the ammount of money the companies do pull in from gaming sales they would bother with it its little things like that, that can really make the game look 8/10 apposed to how it should look 10/10,

I always thought it was a Graphics Card issue with the ps3, but seems as though it isn't, I just hope that things like this are noticed and taking into account, cause atm the only down fall for gt5 to make it 100% perfect in appearance is the AA issue. And well i hope and i'm sure many many others hope its resolved in the full release that will be unleashed next year

 

[steve30x]

There just aint enough graphics ram there to allow enough AA at 1080P. Sony should have put at least 512mb ram dedicated to graphics alone to achieve goo AA at 1080P.

 

[djcorrosive]

So your opinion on it so far, is that it will never be able to handle proper AA in full 1080p?
As in even if DEVS at PD or anywhere else do what they can to remove it and make very smooth shadows as it should be, the gfx card just wont handle it?

 

[steve30x]

Yes thats my opinion of AA on the PS3. I know a lot of you guys will disagree with my opinion but it is true.

 

[djcorrosive]

oh no i dont disagree, i think u could be on the money, cause i've noticed it on a lot of games and i was thinking the same thing. it should have 512mb ram on video.

 

[Mad Matt]

I'm not saying AA issues are going to disappear but you don't need 512MB to get rid of it. I've played PC games on my 256MB card which have had good AA.

I reckon it'll take time for developers to work out the best way of doing it for PS3. Once the bar has been raised the others will follow.

Not forcing developers to follow one way of working has always been a strength and weakness of PS.

 

[steve30x]

I'm not saying AA issues are going to disappear but you don't need 512MB to get rid of it. I've played PC games on my 256MB card which have had good AA.

I reckon it'll take time for developers to work out the best way of doing it for PS3. Once the bar has been raised the others will follow.

Not forcing developers to follow one way of working has always been a strength and weakness of PS.

It depends on the resolution you play the game at. If you played those games at 1080P with 256mb on the graphics card you will not be able to go over 2x AA guaranteed. I had an ATI 4870 512mb for 5 weeks during august and september. I couldnt go above 2X aa @ 1680 x 1050 which isnt even near 1080P. I sold the ATI Graphics card and now have an XFX GTX 280 1024mb and can use 8X AA with any game I throw at it. Youve got to coonsider resolutionand texture quality into the equasion as well as Graphics ram. The Higher quality textures and Polys the more Graphics ram the Graphics card will use also.

 

[Melfice7]

Have you played Uncharted? Ratched? Warhawk? just to name a few, theres 0 aliasing on those and very few to none "blocky" shadows. If some developers can make it don't blame it on the machine

 

[dzidza]

games don't need to have 1080p resolution to look good, even on 720p with lots of AA, they can look great.

I agree with you, and not only ram counts, but also bus, which is 128 bits on this graphic card in ps3, and today is normal atleast 256 bits.

 

[steve30x]

games don't need to have 1080p resolution to look good, even on 720p with lots of AA, they can look great.

I agree with you, and not only ram counts, but also bus, which is 128 bits on this graphic card in ps3, and today is normal atleast 256 bits.

It may be true but a lot of people complain that games on the PS3 arent 1080P. I also agree that the bus speed and ram speed also contributs to how hardware handles graphics. Theres many things that contribute to how well a graphics card handles graphics.

 

[dzidza]

i think that true 1080p games will come with ps4. maybe there is a possibility that some of ps3's 7 core take that job, but i imagine that it's not easy to program it

 

[steve30x]

By the time the PS4 arrive 1080P will be a thing of the past. Theres now a resolution 4X higher than 1080P now.

 

[dzidza]

i know that, but i don't think that it will metter much, because lots of people are buying lcd's, plasma's to watch tv, which wont even be in 1080p by the time ps4 arrives. Not every body uses hullhd lcd's as a monitor or to play ps3 :-)

 

[steve30x]

i know that, but i don't think that it will metter much, because lots of people are buying lcd's, plasma's to watch tv, which wont even be in 1080p by the time ps4 arrives. Not every body uses hullhd lcd's as a monitor or to play ps3 :-)

I was talking about the new HDTV Resolution not monitor resolution. Monitors have had higher resolution than 1080P with a good while now.

 

[Kryz11]

Reason why i am asking this question is cause i notice the Anti-Aliasing in games on the ps3 is really poor!

games like MGS4 and GT5p (especially gt5p) and a fair few others the shadows are really poor very jaggy and blocky!

Is this a issue cause the developers have not created them to run at the ps3's full power?

Or is it just plain and simple that the gfx card cannot handle such textures at all?


Do you think that PD are aware of it? and possibly could fix the shadow issues up?

Thank u.

Even back in PS2 era, most games had weak AA. Sure PS3 is really powerful, they could fix the AA, but GT5P is at 1080p and light effects and other graphics are just through the roof, 16 cars... etc..so yeah no space for good AA.
I think FULL GT5 game needs to be at 720p because I would love to see nicer and smoother lines.



Could someone please capture a screen show both at 1080p and 720p? Someone mention before that game runs bit smoother at 720p. So could someone can capture screen shots with the capture card? Thanks.

 

[kazuyam]

Some mistakes here, I need to correct.
First of all, MGS4 and GT5P are both using AA!
GT5P uses 4xAA in 720p and 2xAA in 1080p 'mode'. 'Mode' because GT5P isn't using 'true' 1080p, but that's another story.
You 'see' jaggies? Yes and no. What you really see are texture flickering and low res shadows, especially in MGS4.
The texture flickering is not caused by a low texture filter similar to the old PS2 and it's lack of hardware anisotropic filters but it's caused by compressed bump and normal maps used for cut lines on the cars. If you compress the info then you get texture artefacts causing flickering which is, I admit, similar to jaggies. It can be reduced by higher AA levels, but more then 4xAA is already too much, even for high end PCs running HDRr, HD resolutions and AA at once.
The technologie, PD and Konami is using for the shadows, can't be anti aliased
because it's not based of polygones, like other technologies used in games like Doom3.
There are many games with AA for PS3: WipeoutHD, Uncharted, Heavenly Sword, CoD4, Resistance etc.
I only know that Bouncer for PS2 was supposed to have AA, others say it was just blurred, so you could't see the jaggies.

 

[Jedi2016]

You do realize, of course, that the resolution of shadow maps has absolutely nothing to do with AA, yes?

 

[H20HYBRID_GT]

LOL what? I think MGS4 has a lot better graphics than GT5P, that should be the standard today! 👍

Don´t get me wrong GT5P could have wonderful graphics if it wouldn't have such a dead looking environment and those freaky clones as spectators...

Also I noticed just recently the cars in front of you are too small!
I know they need to become smaller when they are pulling away, but cmon not that small, that fast...
Looks almost like a cartoon or something.

PS: Yes, I saw GT5P on HD TVs... and that´s why I won´t buy one anytime soon, it looks even worse imo.

 

[kazuyam]

http://www.comp.nus.edu.sg/~tants/tsm.html

''Anti-aliasing and Continuity with Trapezoidal Shadow Maps''

The resolution for the maps are indeed an important point, if you do not want to anti alias them

''...We note that our approach is only one way to address the resolution and the continuity problem. It is a reasonable heuristic to generate shadow maps of good resolution, but the issues on over- and under-sampling remain for various situations such as in the dueling frusta case where the trapezoidal approximation does not have any particular advantage over other approximations...''

Either you use a very high resolution for the shadows and don't need a technologie that anti aliases them, which would cost frames, or you use a solution that anti aliases them from the start or, in the case of those two games, you will have to get along with the problem.

 

[Me-is-Mad]

Without wanting to turn GT5 into a PC game, it would be nice to see two options in game, like;

720p - HQ shadows, 4XAA
OR
1080p - MQ shadows 2XAA​

And I'd also like to see a few options like the good ol' 1g lateral head tilt.

P.S To be fair though the HDR and outdoor quality of the Cars is top notch, as are the tracks, just dirty 'em up a bit. Fingers Crosses PD sort out the frankly, P*ss Poor interior Shadows

OnAFinalNote -I'm sure we could sacrifice some of the blades of grass for AA.

 

[Kryz11]

Once again, can someone capture two photos, one at 720p and one running at 1080p?

I will try to switch between 1080p and 720p and see if any jaggies improve at lower resolution. But seeing it in a picture gives good proof to other members.

Don´t get me wrong GT5P could have wonderful graphics if it wouldn't have such a dead looking environment

UMM what? hahahah. sorry that just had me laugh so much. It is a racing game, they pretty much every tree, every lamp post, every fence, every hill to look EXACLY like real life. GT5P have best looking environments out there. One good example is FUJI, the drow distance is increllible, as well looking at the mountain. Why would PD add more stuff to the field to make it look nicer if real life look bland? Thats how the racing tracks look in real life.. not a fashion statement . Not even PC game have so much detail.

 

[NLxAROSA]

Well, the environment does look a bit bland compared to the cars, because despite the fact that they put in about every sign or lamp post there is (which is quite amazing), the textures used are very low res and polygon count is very low. Especially when compared to the high res textures and high polygon count on the cars. Just check a few tyre stacks up close to see what I mean.

But then again, that's the case in most racing games. They put the most detail in the parts you see all the time: the car, the cockpit, etc. For all the stuff that's whizzing by at 200mph less detail is okay.

And resources on a console are limited. If they would introduce detailed crowds and up the polygon count/texture res on the environment, there would be less for the cars. And I think this game looks simply awesome the way it is now. 👍

 

[RedBaron]

The worst part of game graphics is not the enviroment, which is pretty plain, but pixel mess between car parts, in grills and fences. It's really eye catching, but the bad way.

 

[|\|ecro]

He means that the wat PD renders the shadows (low resolution, and no polygons), cant be "anti-allised", thats for jaggies on shadows only.

 

[Kryz11]

But we need to AA cars itself, as well environment!
I play on 720p and found no eye difference in the jagged cars, So I went back to 1080p. The farther away the car, the more jaggies. When Car on replay is close, it's smooth.

 

[d3br34k5]

if they can improve the graphics without introducing any (more) framerate slowdowns, i'm all for it.

as of right now though, i don't think it's possible.

i cringe when i think what fraps would report the frame rate at during some of the 16 position grids.

 

[Kryz11]

Game has low AA as many PlayStation games. It's common. Sony really needs to give more POWER to developers.. Why not just put ONE Cell Processor, and some Extra ram for AA? I don't know how it works, but they could spend 50 bucks more for 2 more gigs of ram. Heck since PS2 days, there have been many games with really LOW AA.

Either way, GT5P looks really amazing. Low AA or not, it still does, and it still easy on the eyes to get around the track. But I am really skeptical that DAMAGE models, RAIN, Night, etc, will really slow the game down, or wont even come out in GT5.
Resistance 2, great game, seems it has really good AA, Graphics are GREAT, and always runs really smooth no matter how many Enemies and friends on screen, guns blainz, explosions, 60 foot monsters, sweet water effects, and no slow down.
If only GT5 could tune down the graphics, so that we can have day/night, rain/snow, and damage. That would be even better then just cars looking pretty.