Are Polyphony Digital victims of their own success?
- Thread starter SCER
- 185 comments
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- 258
Good point, I agree on that. IGN stated that GT5 was a 10/10 simulator wrapped in a 5/10 game. That is GT5 in a nutshell, I couldn't have said it better. But my point is not that Forza is bad, not by any means. It's just that people give it TOO much praise. Forza 4 is essentially a tweaked version of Forza 3. Which is good, because if it ain't broke, don't fix it. But with a team of up to 400 people, and outsourcing and getting help from Pirelli and stuff, I expect hell a lot more than a little tweaking in 2 years time. Hence why I say it is getting too much praise and GT5 too little. It tried to change up the formula, which didn't really work out. But now PD are correcting many things for GT6, which I find very good, and unlike some, I feel that they really listened to the community.
PD deserves some praise for that. They can't make the best game for everyone, and there are things I don't like (standards). But still, they are working hard, and the game propably will be much better. Also, the difference between GT5 and 6, from what we've heard already, is HUGE. Almost everything has not only been touched upon, it's being revamped. So I think a little more praise for our beloved series creators is in order, that's all I'm asking for.
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- TPC_Raccooon23
- CRaccoon23
- 258
Didn't GT1 shake up the whole racing genre in a way that Super Mario 64 did for 3D Adventure/Platform games? Isn't every single racing game (well, almost) that takes itself seriously build on the foundations of GT1?
Give me the argument that GT1 in it's turn was build upon games like Pole Position, and you'll be right. But GT1 was revolutionary, and was the foundation of racing games that still resonates today, and not just mildly...
- 40,884
It made driving sims more accepted and provided a very popular formula for future games to try to directly copy (first Sega, then Square, then Genki, then Konami, then Turn 10); but GT wasn't the first sim and it wasn't even the first major sim to get a console release to a ton of fanfare, nor do all sims fashion themselves after the GT formula.
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Just like not every single adventure/platform game fashions itself after Super Mario 64. But it still was revolutionary in the way most people played racing games after that. It shook up the traditional formula of about 6 tracks, 12 cars, and if you won every race you got a bonus car or two. It showed how to make this formula much more intriguing. The way GT1 handled the cars and their history, and the feeling of ownership, plus the immense size and variety of cars, tracks and racing series in the game were unrivalled. It gave new meaning to the words 'career mode'.
- 2,045
- TX
- whitemanLS1
To add to it
4. Multi-Class racing
5. livery editor. original no, but i have the ability to have just about any ALMS and ELMS car.
- 5,766
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- TPC_Raccooon23
- CRaccoon23
While the things we heard about GT6 do sound promising, I want to see the final product before I give them praise, or at least the demo when it comes in July. We heard a lot of promising things about GT5, but look how that turned out. Ever since GT5, I've been taking everything with a grain of salt.
- 6,318
- West Virginia
- HBR-Roadhog
- HBR Roadhog
I disagree if anything it is not as good as it was before. The addition of some of these "cool things" have taken away from the actual online racing which is what Forza was best at and for those of us that care more about racing it hurt the game much more than it helped.
GT5 was the first attempt at an online racer for PD and it wasn't bad has several cool features that I wish were in Forza as well but are not. They also improved the online racing via updates as time went by. I am very curious to see what GT6 has done in this area of the game
Ferrari458Italia
Premium
- 1,219
- Tennessee
- FerrariThugs
- xbox is a joke
I expected a lot out of GT5 because I thought surely taking 5 years to make a game would make it great, and to some extent I was impressed with GT5, but not impressed enough. there is always room for improvement
as far as GT6 goes I'm not expecting much. I'm expecting GT5.5, sure I'll buy it on release date or even I might go to midnight launch if they have one, but the real gem is probably going to be GT7 on a new revolutionary next gen. hardware, PS4.
as far as GT6 goes I'm not expecting much. I'm expecting GT5.5, sure I'll buy it on release date or even I might go to midnight launch if they have one, but the real gem is probably going to be GT7 on a new revolutionary next gen. hardware, PS4.
- 40,884
Which is still moot when most of the market doesn't follow, which is important when you compare the first GT to a title as monumental as SM64. The difference is that the majority of games after that game did follow the groundwork, sometimes to the extent of the serial numbers being filed off, and the majority still do; completely displacing the old ways of doing things from before and there are only a few exceptions (like Ape Escape or the modern Sonic titles) that go against the grain. How many games do you know of that were still designed like Bubsy 3D, or any other pre-SM64 platformer, after SM64 came out?
Compare that to the amount of racing games on the market all the way up to the end of the PS2 generation that still offered you at most a few dozen cars to choose from that were unlocked in order; with, if you were lucky, a dozen tracks to drive on. The ones that were offering substantially more content were either building off of previous games in the series (like TOCA and R4) or directly copying the GT games. If anything, it was Grand Theft Auto that had more of an effect on the racing market in general (as opposed to the titles that directly copy Gran Turismo), since starting around 2002 many of the big racing games on the market were open world and/or had some sort of story pushing the progression.
The closest game I can think of that was markedly different from GT but still had an obvious GT influence was the original Test Drive Unlimited. Maybe Auto Modellista, but that was so far removed from being quality that I don't think it counts; and the earlier Tokyo Xtreme Racer games were similar in structure but also part of a series that dated to the SNES. The old Juiced games had more GT elements than most, but they copied just as much (if not more) from the contemporary NFS games anyway. GT did new things that expanded the genre, yes. Some of those things were fantastic ideas that have been directly copied, yes; nevermind the handful of games that have been content with just copying GT entirely. But GT didn't change the entire format of the genre, and not every game is built off of things that the first GT did, so you can't say that every game that takes itself seriously can trace itself to the ideas present in that first GT game.
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- 10,957
- Canada
Oooo lots of good and reasonable points made. 
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Oooo lots of good and reasonable points made.
Quite rare isn't it? And that on GTPlanet!
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- Canada
- 2,012
There's a ton left to do:
- Become 100% the same as racing in real life, software and hardware side.
- Simulate the whole experience, which doesn't begin at the starting line.
- Making full use of the virtual environment advantages when compared to real life, such extreme amounts of cars and tracks available instead of just one.
- And all that reaching the masses (consoles) for an affordable price.
The exciting thing about this particular genre is how it constantly evolves: it was completely different 10 and 20 years ago. Picture how it'll be in 10 and 20 years from today.
Now, that's an exercise that is actually possible to do. 2013 Simracing people that spend quite a lot on this, from the commercially available products (lets say $5k) up to custom-made rigs ($50k), are living on the future on this regard, both on software and hardware side, as it happens with all technology related products.
10 years ago they had the equivalent of what console players can buy and afford right now, so I picture the current motion-like rigs have the potential of reaching the masses in the PS5 era. Of course it won't be up to the quality of the 50k rig, but probably the 5k one with some features of the 50k. The software side isn't much predictable, but picture it as the best aspects of all sims and racing games ever released, multiplied by 3.
Also, one thing is the GT series and another is the whole development of this genre. The stagnation of the GT series doesn't mean the genre is stuck in 1999, like PD is at least up to GT5.
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- A6222346
6. Better Tire Model
7. Better Suspension Model (arguably)
8. More Current-Gen Quality Cars
9. Better Car Selection
10. Better Sounds
11. Clubs
12. More Customization Options
I can go on and on...
Not everyone will agree on every single one of these points, but you'd be hard-pressed to find a person who, upon examining both games feature-by-feature, aspect-by-aspect, claims GT is the superior game.
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- A6222346
And I have to laugh at anyone who prefers uses the argument: "Turn 10 wasn't innovative enough with the Forza series, therefore, GT5 is automatically the superior game, regardless of its content and how it compares to Forza 4."
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- Goes_To_11 GTP_GoesTo11
I'm one of those people. Physics is a wash compared to pc sims. I don't really care for the number of cars. Some sounds in Forza are better some are a lot worse. GT has a greater variety of cars (kart, rally, F1, etc). I love having changing day/night and weather changes. Single player racing sucks on both games. At least GT has the special events and License tests. Everyone has different priorities for what they want in a game so everyone is going to have a different preference for what they like best.
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- A6222346
The physics in both Forza and GT suck compared to the PC sims, but ok.
That's a perceived advantage for GT5 anyways, but ok.
Nearly all the sounds in Forza are better (engines, tires, etc). Anyone who says otherwise isn't able to back up their opinion objectively.
All of which it fails to implement into the actual game properly. Drafting's over-effectiveness hurts the karting experience, rally's physics are horrendous (like driving on ice), and F1's physics aren't very good, either. And of all these suffer from not being featured in A-Spec enough.
At least Turn 10 manages to implement their niche licensed content (Top Gear) to the best of their abilities.
And at least Forza has Autovista, Rivals, Auction House, Livery Editor, etc.
Just listing GT's features shouldn't sway anyone considering Forza has more features and is more of a game anyways.
That's true, although I'm shocked someone has a preference for poorly-implemented varieties of vehicles and features such as license tests and special events as opposed to not having standard cars and tracks, having a proper tire model, having a better suspension model (arguably), having a livery editor, having more customization and tuning options, having better sounds, and enjoying many of the other advantages that have already been listed by others. Like I said, I honestly think anyone's preference for GT5 is based on irrational factors like childhood nostalgia, fear of change, and brand loyalty as opposed to actual preferences and objectivity.
Now this is a versus thread, so think I'll shut up for the time being.
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- 9,232
- Solid Gone
- MeanElf
In my experience, the harshest criticism does indeed come from the angriest customer...but mostly they've been ignorant people who haven't understood some fundamentals of the product I was supporting. Even after careful explanation, they often end up churlishly demanding that things need to change - so there is feedback and there is useful feedback. Sorry, but the public rarely does useful feeback.
Nice analogy.
Nowhere has he refused to improve sounds. True, he said they were too real and then went on to say that they are looking into making them sexier instead. Please don't spread false statements.
Professional critics can and have been bought to say whatever is required - surely you know this.
Nintendo's MiiVerse is damn fine - the WiiU itself loads games swiftly, silently and it's all really a pleasent experience.
Not being a Forza player, or 360 owner, I can't be absolutely certain...but isn't Forza the only racing title on the Xbox? If so, why does Forza not get lumped with the same argument when according to various comments on this thread, it's hardly been a force of innovation either - yet GT always seems to get more stick.
Not all GT fans started as kids with the series. I first heard og GT at a friend's house just after GT4 arrived. I liked what I saw. It wasn't until six years ago though that I picked up GT3 and 4 along with a PS2 at the age of 48. Before that, I'd played a lot of arcade games (they were in the pubs over here) but not much in between due to circumstances that involved a lot of travel and very few possessions. Since playing GT5 I have met quite a few older players who have only started with GT from GT5. I do get what you're saying about nostalgia and the majority - but I'd just like to say that there are some GT defenders out there who are not swayed by such considerations.
One last thing I'd like to add, well, paraphrase from a post I made some time ago, especially as in-game sounds appear to be such an issue and many have stated that those who don't mind are holding the game back: I play other games too, one amongst these is IL2-Sturmovik: Birds of Prey - a WWII Europe based aerial warfare simulator. This game before it released happened to mention that the aircraft noises couldn't be recorded from the real aircraft. In fact they could in some cases, but chose not to because that would have taken a lot more budget than they were willing to spend - at least that's the impression I got. Instead they went out to a local airfield and recorded similar planes, modern ones. And you know what, not one fan complained, made any adverse comments about this and we all enjoyed the hell out of it. Before anyone states the much repeated defense that racing games are 50% about the sound - well, do you think that flying a Mk IX Spitfire you wouldn't want that unique sound too - or the scream of the Stuka's intake in a dive?
I'm sure changes will come on that score, but really, each of us has our own opinions and are entitled to them. A war of vitriol about something like this will only strengthen the impression I have heard from other forum members elsewhere, that GTP is a sour and confrontational place for nit-pickers.
What will happen, will happen. I hope we can all live with it when it comes, or move on and be happy, whatever the case may be.
- 814
- Goes_To_11 GTP_GoesTo11
Rivals is ok, the rest of those features don't interest me at all. I painted one car in Horizon (which to me is a much better game than Forza4) and none in Forza4. I think I put a stripe and a Canadian flag on a car in Ferrari Challenge. Autovista is a bore. Since single player racing sucks in both that makes GT a better game for me since at least GT has the license tests and special events.
I have no brand loyalty. My first sim was GTHD. Since then I've bought and played GT5P, GT5, FC, LFS, iRacing, Forza4, Race 07, NetKar pro and rFactor2. I also have and love more arcade racing games like Forza Horizon, Dirt3 and motorstorm. I still like GT5 better than Forza4.
- 6,318
- West Virginia
- HBR-Roadhog
- HBR Roadhog
6. I have heard this a lot but the tire model in Forza does not really seem much better perhaps a little but not enough that it is that big a deal to me.
7. I would say they have better tuning options but the model is flawed in more ways than one.
8. Quality cars is a matter of opinion. I find that Forza is a bit overloaded with super fast poor handling super/hyper cars. It does however have a decent selection of muscle cars although many can not be made competitive due to issues with the PI and trans.
9. I think GT5 wins this one hands down.
10. In some ways yes and in others no. Forza makes a good noise in general but not very realistic in most cases and sounds the same front, rear, inside on the cars I have tested. The sound in GT6 needs to be better but in many cases the GT5 sound was more true than what is in Forza.
11. GT6 will likely have something like this as well and while the clubs were a neat idea I find that they do not add much to the game the way they are implemented in FM4.
12. Granted although many of them are unrealistic.
There are also several things about GT that could be said make it a better game but I will not go into those. I listed already the things I think are the most important differences where Forza has the edge.
- 40,884
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=276308
You don't even have to post in it, since half of this stuff is just stuff people have already repeated there.
You don't even have to post in it, since half of this stuff is just stuff people have already repeated there.
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- A6222346
I can sorta agree with this.
I do think there are a handful of posters here who are consistently critical of GT5 and still offer useful feedback (people who I think are smarter than I am). I would agree that these users are far and few between, although they do tend to post a lot.
But yeah, just to address your point directly, we don't know the circumstances that lead to the final product. I don't know why PD didn't put various enthusiast-aimed cars like the BMW E30, Ford Escort Cosworth, Ferrari Daytona, etc in GT5. I don't know why PD doesn't outsource some of the modeling process like Turn 10 does, as that's clearly a more efficient way of going about making these games. I don't know why iconic cars like the Toyota Supra or Bugatti Veyron aren't premium. I don't know why there's so many horns and racing suits in GT5 when the game lacks so many highly requested tracks and cars. I don't know why PD wastes their time creating irritating features like the paint chip system when most of us find it to be a hindrance.
I don't know why PD does what it does, but that doesn't mean that I can't:
A) complain about it to my heart's content since I bought the game and its DLC and it's not against GTPlanet rules in threads with titles such as "Are Polyphony Digital victims of their own success?"
B) claim that there is/are superior game(s) on the market and have civil debates with those who appear to have made some sort of libidinal investment in the success of the GT series, and actively root against other series
I thought the way he went about answering that question was extremely smug, almost like "The sounds in GT5 are very realistic. Our fans are just too stupid to realize."
That's not the correct way to treat customers IMO. We put the food on his table.
Personally, I think claiming one racing series or game is better than another on the grounds that it's been more innovative is silly. It's almost as bad as claiming that one thing is better than another thing based on higher sales.
Racing simulators aren't art. I don't care about how innovative they are. I only care about how good they are in terms of content.
Fair enough.
I think the majority of GTPlanet is influenced by their experiences with the series when they were young (and therefore has again, developed that libidinal relationship with it), but claiming that everyone here has had that experience would be vastly over-generalizing.
Maybe I'm just less emotionally-driven than most, but the complaining doesn't annoy me at all. I don't get fired-up reading people's posts complaining about stuff I like, and I don't feel a rush when I write a post criticizing GT. I don't understand why people let this place ruin their day.
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- CoolColJ, GTP_CoolColJ
The very first time I saw and played GT, it was this obscure driving game at my local PSX import shop.
Back then I was already buying and playing quite a bit of Japanese car games that tended to be somewhat RPG'ish with some tuning aspects. Most were OK but not great. There was nothing like that in the Western world.
I was into tuning cars in real life, and that was the aspect that GT blew me away. Here was a game that had lots of cars that looked like the real things and handled similar, but also allowed you to tune and mod then like you could in real life! And drive them fast
That to me was the essence of GT
Years on, the GT series had been diluted and not really in the same spirit...
The tuning/modding in in GT games should be well advanced over what we had in GT1, but alas that is not the case. Only thing that improved a lot over the years are graphics...
Some things like gameplay actually regressed!
Don't really get the same pride in ownership of the cars as well
Back then I was already buying and playing quite a bit of Japanese car games that tended to be somewhat RPG'ish with some tuning aspects. Most were OK but not great. There was nothing like that in the Western world.
I was into tuning cars in real life, and that was the aspect that GT blew me away. Here was a game that had lots of cars that looked like the real things and handled similar, but also allowed you to tune and mod then like you could in real life! And drive them fast
That to me was the essence of GT
Years on, the GT series had been diluted and not really in the same spirit...
The tuning/modding in in GT games should be well advanced over what we had in GT1, but alas that is not the case. Only thing that improved a lot over the years are graphics...
Some things like gameplay actually regressed!
Don't really get the same pride in ownership of the cars as well
- 9,232
- Solid Gone
- MeanElf
That was also the gist of this thread - complaints are not a problem with most of those people really; at least not if they are grounded in reason, with supporting facts and not just rude outpourings of someone feeling aggreived for whatever reason. No problems there - I only followed up on the 'Customer is always right' business model discussion because it isn't always correct or the best way forward.
I don't know why they do what they do either, but it doesn't bother me overly.
I didn't, at least the transcripted text didn't seem to imply that - perhaps a smidge of exasperation could be felt there, which I can understand after everyone and their dog accusing them of being lazy. In the end, it was an interview fed back and forth through medium of a translator. Jordan seems happy enough that Kazunori-san is considering how this can be improved and he was there to see the facial expressions, something none of us were privy to.
It doesn't bother me too much when it brings something to the table - the shouting and bawling ones I find funny, though of late they have become wearying, hence I suspect, this is why SCER started this thread.
- 2,045
- TX
- whitemanLS1
The very first time I saw and played GT, it was this obscure driving game at my local PSX import shop.
Back then I was already buying and playing quite a bit of Japanese car games that tended to be somewhat RPG'ish with some tuning aspects. Most were OK but not great. There was nothing like that in the Western world.
I was into tuning cars in real life, and that was the aspect that GT blew me away. Here was a game that had lots of cars that looked like the real things and handled similar, but also allowed you to tune and mod then like you could in real life! And drive them fast
That to me was the essence of GT
Years on, the GT series had been diluted and not really in the same spirit...
The tuning/modding in in GT games should be well advanced over what we had in GT1, but alas that is not the case. Only thing that improved a lot over the years are graphics...
Some things like gameplay actually regressed!
Don't really get the same pride in ownership of the cars as well
Nail on the head, the whole reason I jumped to fm4 this last January. The gameplay hasn't changed in GT and neither has the depth of tuning. After 5 years of hype I knew GT5 no matter how good would have a hard time living up to it bit I didn't expect it to fall flat on its face.
No doubt they are riding the success of previous GT's. I bought every race game that came out and always came back to GT despite there being things I thought they would fix in the next version but never did. No free pass this time, highly doubt I give PD a chance with GT6.
- 394
- A6222346
Yeah.
I choose not to think about it too much, either. The stranger aspects of GT5 could be the result of lack of funds from Sony, PD's incompetence, inability to obtain licenses, or a variety of other factors. We'll never know, and I don't even think I care to know anymore.
Honestly, this is how I see it nowadays — two products have been laid out before me. Both are direct competitors, and one of them is flat-out objectively better than the other.
I'm curious as to why the one that is objectively worse is more popular and more loved. I try to pick the brains of those who have played both games extensively and prefer GT, and I never get what I feel is a sufficient answer. They claim their affinity for GT isn't related to emotional factors (again, stuff like childhood nostalgia, comfort with what's familiar, brand loyalty, etc), but I honestly don't believe them.
Building on the themes discussed above, the development of what I believe is a libidinal attachment to the GT series with many fans here also confuses me. Why do some prefer to give PD the benefit of the doubt over other companies? Why do people here root against other companies? Why do threads like this even exist? I feel no need to be appreciative of a company that made a product that I and many others feel (even some of the hardcore GT fans) is underwhelming. I don't get it; it all just seems so irrational to me.
I think I suffer from a lack of ability to see from other perspectives because I'm seriously confused as to how someone who's played both can objectively prefer the GT series at this point.
And sorry if this post is melodramatic. It's late and I know I'm rambling.
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