Are Polyphony Digital victims of their own success?

[eran0004]

Not much more to add really. You'd have thought that years of success would equate to more creative freedom, and fewer fans clamouring to have their preferences added to future releases, but apparently it's the opposite.

I mean, call me crazy, but isn't 68 million units sold enough proof that Polyphony Digital are a professional business? This isn't politics, and try as you might, you can't tell PD what to do.

They have that right regardless of how many units they sell.
Pleasing fans is just ******** - art should be made by artists, not by consumers.

To illustrate my point, I'd prefer the game to the right.

 

[SCER]

A lot of the responses on the old thread referred to specific flaws within the game, rather than the more abstract question I was trying to ask. Which is in the title, as opposed to, "Will PD take into account all of our requests or not?"

A lot of people were complaining about PD falling behind it's rivals in terms of sounds, standard cars etc. etc. which I thought was irrelevant.

 

[Samus]

Not much more to add really. You'd have thought that years of success would equate to more creative freedom, and fewer fans clamouring to have their preferences added to future releases, but apparently it's the opposite.

I mean, call me crazy, but isn't 68 million units sold enough proof that Polyphony Digital are a professional business? This isn't politics, and try as you might, you can't tell PD what to do.

Not really, it proves they have a popular product that can now sell on name alone.

I'm not sure why you're suggesting that a business doesn't need to listen to or take note of what their customers are saying. Sure they don't need to pay attention to "OMG GT6 IS AWFUL, FORZA ALL THE WAY" comments but a business certainly needs to listen to constructive critisism if they want them to remain customers. The same goes for any business whether you make videogames or paving slabs.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I often wonder what they are teaching you kids in school these days. The question in the OP makes no sense at all. PD is beholden to it's ownership and nothing more. They have the right to churn out any kind of game they like, they are not bound to serve the public interest. Fans clamour for things because they want everything, that's the nature of a consumer.

 

[glassjaw]

Are they victims of their own success? Possibly. To a certain extent, you can never meet fans' demands when you have a project as hyped as Gran Turismo. I don't think they're entirely victims though, because many of the problems with the franchise stem from a complete lack of foresight and an unwillingness to learn from the competition.

Kaz is a smart man, I have no doubt. However, I can't help but feel he has let his "vision" - as many people are calling it - get the better of him. Some of his goals for GT5 were unrealistic, impractical, and required more time and money than Sony should have allowed him to spend. When his studio was pressed for time, he delivered a final product that was ultimately unfinished. Whether or not you loved GT5, that much is objectively true. He's also refused to make improvements to a few key areas, especially sound and damage modelling, responding to criticism by claiming that they are simply "too real" for casual fans. Meanwhile, competing developers have mastered both years ago, in games with a fraction of the budget Polyphony has access to.

 

[ShiftingGears]

Does anybody agree with me on this?

It's technically possible.

 

[Samus]

It's technically possible.

It's certainly something I'm thinking about.

 

[Exorcet]

That is exactly my point. They don't have a forum available for the net because all it takes is a few minutes at any given gaming website which isn't strictly moderated and you will see nothing but people listing what they want over and over again.

Which first off isn't rude or bad, and secondly could very well be a result of not having any direct contact with PD. It's hard to ask nicely for something when you don't even know where to direct your question, you posting your thoughts everywhere seems like a good option when you don't know how your target audience takes in information.

And it's a shame too. 10 million people have purchased GT5 and yet PDI still doesn't want to get involved with the public. Do they perceive the GT fan base as spoiled and demanding? I sure hope not.

I don't see why they would.

I expect you to say that, but the fact remains it's the truth. Whether or not you choose to accept that is on you. Look at the GT6 section...

Where there are as many people defending GT6 as not. I don't see a lot convincing me that one side is so much louder than the other.

Let me clarify this a bit more. Lets just say 15 years ago I designed you a home to build. You loved what I was able to accomplish so much you came back three more times as each time represented some improvements to the base layout of the plan. Mind you, none of the designs were perfect, but great non the less.

Great maybe, but also with many flaws repeated over and over that were not addressed.

For the fifth time, the design phase went the same as the previous ones as you left my office to build this home. You thanked me, paid me for my services and we went our separate ways. I believed my services for you were exceptional but little did I know, you had an internet blog in which you were complaining about everything I did. I took notice of it and worked a lot harder for the 6th version of the plan you buying from me and before I even completed the project, you were back posting issues you have with a preliminary design I gave you. Lets just say you kept posting the same thing day in and day out even though the project wasn't due to break ground for 6 months!

If this is supposed to represent GTP, I don't see it.

Needless to say, that behavior would change the way things are done between us. This is not about ego or pride as it's about courtesy towards another person. Remember, behind the GTR, Kaz is a man who is very passionate about what he does, and last time I checked people enjoy compliments a lot more then repeating criticism. I also imagine the people employed by PDI are somewhat puzzled by the behavior of the internet over GT5 when they see the excellent success the game has had with it's sales.

Sales aren't the bottom line. The reasoning for all the criticism is usually given in the post/comment itself, so PD has nothing to be confused about. It's all in front of them. I'm also sure that they're not going to look at sales numbers and then dismiss everything else and say it's a job well done.

I never said I would shut the annoyed and over-critical person off completely, but I did say that someone who can do both is far more effective in communicating valuable feedback.

Maybe if PD communicated back.

There are over 10.5 million GT5 buyers out there and only 250k people registered here, and out of that number, who knows how many are active.

And who is to say that the 250,000 here have drastically different opinions than the other 10 million? Or that the 250,000 here are partially responsible for the other 10 million buying the game.

I don't believe they are per se, but you must understand that it would sure be a lot easier for PDI to transition into the internet age if perhaps PDI was treated more professionally.

I don't see what more they can want, unless they simply can't take criticism at all, which isn't a good sign.

Not much more to add really. You'd have thought that years of success would equate to more creative freedom, and fewer fans clamouring to have their preferences added to future releases

Why? Why does being successful allow them to ignore glaring issues they have?

I mean, call me crazy, but isn't 68 million units sold enough proof that Polyphony Digital are a professional business? This isn't politics, and try as you might, you can't tell PD what to do.

No it's not. It's just a sales number and reflects nothing on the quality of the game and does not guarantee their ability to continue pulling in more sales.

And we can certainly give PD suggestions. It's up to them to listen or not.

 

[ShiftingGears]

It's certainly something I'm thinking about.

 

[Earth]

Not much more to add really. You'd have thought that years of success would equate to more creative freedom, and fewer fans clamouring to have their preferences added to future releases, but apparently it's the opposite.

I mean, call me crazy, but isn't 68 million units sold enough proof that Polyphony Digital are a professional business? This isn't politics, and try as you might, you can't tell PD what to do.

The Xbox 360 was successful. And they used their creative freedom to develop the Xbox One, a system full of features their core fanbase does not want. But theres nothing wrong with that because the previous console was successful and sold over 75 million units, right?

Your argument boils down to saying Polyphony Digital knows how to improve their product without fan input. OK, lets leave the fans out of this for a second. Can Polyphony Digital at least try to learn from the competition? Whether your in the cell phone business TV business or whatever if you arent copying the features of the competition and trying to improve them then you will fail as a business. In terms of average ratings, their closest competition has beaten them quite easily for a good while now. Can they at least try to learn from them and why 'professional' critics dont favor their game as much anymore?

Polyphony Digital is a victim of their own stagnation. They're like Nintendo. So far behind the competition in certain features that when they do add things the competition has its barely half as good. Whatever online system Nintendo has does not compare to the PSN or Xbox Live. Im sure whatever customization GT6 adds will be half as good as the competition.

The problem is Gran Turismo has improved greatly as a driving simulation with each game, but has improved very little as a 'game'. Judging from what they decided to focus on at the reveal, Polyphony Digital will once again improve the driving simulation aspect greatly, while ignoring the 'game' part of it. The problem is PC sims specialize in driving physics. So if Polyphony Digital is going to make that the end all priority of their games I might as well move to PC sims if Gran Turismo continues to be a very unfun game again

 

[Imari]

I often wonder what they are teaching you kids in school these days. The question in the OP makes no sense at all. PD is beholden to it's ownership and nothing more. They have the right to churn out any kind of game they like, they are not bound to serve the public interest. Fans clamour for things because they want everything, that's the nature of a consumer.

Absolutely. PD and Sony can make GT into whatever they want.

Of course, if they're not morons they might consider talking to a few of the people buying their product and see what might entice them to buy another one. Or maybe some of the people who don't buy their product, and see what they can do to sway them. You know, basic stuff that might help them sell more units; the fundamental function of any business.

Still, they're by no means bound to do this, and if they choose not to then more power to them. It'd be a ballsy move. We'll then see how many people like exactly the same things Kaz likes. Some, I'm sure.

Possibly not as many as if he'd made a game that was designed to appeal to a wide range of car fans who might not necessarily have the same outlook as him personally, but that's just the way it works when something is bound to a single person's vision like that.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Absolutely. PD and Sony can make GT into whatever they want.

Of course, if they're not morons they might consider talking to a few of the people buying their product and see what might entice them to buy another one. Or maybe some of the people who don't buy their product, and see what they can do to sway them. You know, basic stuff that might help them sell more units; the fundamental function of any business.

Still, they're by no means bound to do this, and if they choose not to then more power to them. It'd be a ballsy move. We'll then see how many people like exactly the same things Kaz likes. Some, I'm sure.

Possibly not as many as if he'd made a game that was designed to appeal to a wide range of car fans who might not necessarily have the same outlook as him personally, but that's just the way it works when something is bound to a single person's vision like that.

It's not that I can't see the vast potential that the GT series has, I really can. But without serious competition on the same PS platform, all you will get from GT is the bare minimum they can get away with to maintain their sales levels. Why put $100,000,000 into a game when you can get away with $75,000,000.? Now if there was another player in the game, someone fielding a product with several hundred cars and dozens of real world tracks, realistic physics etc...you can bet your bottom dollar you'd hardly be able to keep up with the innovations and development speed of the GT series. Take all the best of Forza, iRacing, PCars etc. and that's easily achievable for PD and way beyond as well. But it will never happen so long as they don't have to compete.

 

[Keef]

It's not just about competing. At the very minimum a business must remain relevant. You're right that there isn't much competition for PD on the Playstation platform. On top of that they've got a longstanding reputation to ride on. Polyphony doesn't have to compete to stay alive.

But they do need to stay relevant. Without regular research and development and implementation, any product will become outdated relative to similar products. If Forza were on Playstation then Gran Turismo 5 would be utterly irrelevant. Laughable, almost. As a hardcore GT and Playstation fan, I feel like GT5 hit retirement age as soon as Forza 4 came on the market. That was less than a year.

My point is that if PD doesn't start catching up they will quickly find themselves so far behind the times that it'll be almost impossible to catch up. Their game will become irrelevant compared to the technology and features throughout the game market and their fan base will disintegrate rapidly.

 

[interpolfan11]

In regards to fan acclaim (or lack thereof nowadays), PD is the victim of improved competition. It's not the answer those who are emotionally attached to the GT franchise want to hear, but it's true.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I don't think PD will ever be so far out of date that they become irrelevant.
There's too much money in the game for Sony/PD to let that happen. If sales of GT7 appear to lag, they'll step it up a bit with some new tracks, newer cars, some flashy stuff, but not necessarily anything that gets to the heart of the experience and it'll continue to sell well. The only way Forza will ever drag a significanct number of players away from the GT series (as opposed to those that do both) would be to do something so staggering it would encourage gamers to get an Xbox when they've been PS'ers for a long time. I just can't see that happening. GT will soldier on.

In regards to fan acclaim (or lack thereof nowadays), PD is the victim of improved competition. It's not the answer those who are emotionally attached to the GT franchise want to hear, but it's true.

And who might that be?

 

[interpolfan11]

And who might that be?

You know who the competition is.

I avoid typing their name directly because A) it inspires a firestorm of fanboy bickering B) I've seen a few mods suggest that discussing Forza in any sub-forum related to GT is going off-topic.

 

[Ills1999]

For that matter, what I've read about the new xbox raises privacy concerns, I doubt I'll jump into those waters, no matter what content it has.

 

[interpolfan11]

I don't think GT will always be relevant no matter what, but I do think they'll be relevant until a direct competitor arrives on a Playstation console (no, pCARS is not quite a direct competitor IMO).

Part of the reason that GT enjoys such a large and rabid fanbase compared to Forza, IMO, is the time in which the franchise was first started. Car culture's popularity (specifically track-racing culture) was at an all-time high in the 1990s and early 2000s. Naturally, it was easier to sell games marketed as "driving simulators" during this era. Thusly, the GT franchise sold a staggering amount of units. These high sales put the GT franchise in the situation it finds itself in today — having the ability to sell games based on pure reputation.

GT enjoys a group of life-long customers who equate the game with childhood memories. Nostalgia sells. People are passionate about their childhoods, and thusly, about GT. Just browsing these forums, nearly every person here played GT religiously when we were young. It's no wonder many here are so defensive of GT.

Now of course, not everyone who bought and played GT when they were young still plays it, but they still play a role in perpetuating the cycle. Word of mouth goes a long way, especially when again, a generation's fondest memories revolve around said game.

I do think GT's sales will eventually collapse if PD doesn't get its act together, as those who experienced its "Golden Age" are growing older and word of mouth will start to fail as the franchise falls further behind Forza, but I believe this process will take a long time. GT is tradition for most of us. Tradition is so hard to break. Familiarity is comfortable. Change is scary. The positive emotions that GT brought us for so long will take a while to die out, especially when there's no direct competitor for many of us to play instead.

 

[Ills1999]

"Car culture's popularity (specifically track-racing culture) was at an all-time high in the 1990s and early 2000s. "

I would characterize the car culture having it's last gasp during that era, not being at an all time high.

 

[interpolfan11]

"Car culture's popularity (specifically track-racing culture) was at an all-time high in the 1990s and early 2000s. "

I would characterize the car culture having it's last gasp during that era, not being at an all time high.

Perhaps, I'm no expert. I would certainly call that era a peak in JDM car culture here in the States, but maybe I was over-generalizing in regards to car culture as a whole.

The point I'm trying to make is that establishing a loyal fanbase was easier in the 1990s and early 2000s than it is today, which is why GT's sales are higher than Forza's. Car culture was clearly more popular in that era than it is today. I don't think anyone would disagree with that.

 

[Ills1999]

Perhaps, I'm no expert. I would certainly call that era a peak in JDM car culture here in the States, but maybe I was over-generalizing in regards to car culture as a whole.

The point I'm trying to make is that establishing a loyal fanbase was easier in the 1990s and early 2000s than it is today, which is why GT's sales are higher than Forza's. Car culture was clearly more popular in that era than it is today. I don't think anyone would disagree with that.

I definitely agree with your general point. Those times were a peak of sorts.

 

[lazywolfe]

This isn't an exact quote, I had to transcribe it from the guy talking in the fifth gear video about the new Pagani Huayra. Keep in mind that the Zonda had a V12:

"When we first talked about [the engine] with AMG, what kind of engine the new Pagani will have, they [AMG] proposed to us a very small, very powerful V8... and we went to our customers and said what do you think if the new Pagani has a V8? They said, 'No. We want a V12 engine.' So they [AMG] said 'OK, but for fuel consumption, emissions and everything, we have to make it with turbos.'"

This is a multi-million dollar company (quick google search says Horacio Pagani is worth $15 million) literally talking to its customers and quite literally being told how to make their vehicle in one major aspect. Yes, it's not an exact analogy, but the point is there. As a business you have to care what your customers think. I'm sure Pagani could've used the V8 and dealt with the loss of some customers, but they decided they cared about their input. I think that's pretty cool. And here's a quick blurb about Ferrari's FXX program:

"FXX owners also participate in Ferrari's testing and brand development programs. As part of the FXX program, the car is maintained by the Ferrari factory. The purpose of this particular program is to allow Ferrari's top customers exclusive access to its most up-to-date technology and to utilize their input in the development of future models."

PD can EASILY do something similar, as far as getting customer feedback, and it would hardly cost them anything. And I really doubt Kaz is losing sleep over people complaining on a forum, I don't get why some of you guys make it like that. The more successful a company, the more scrutiny it'll come under. Just like athletes. It's the price of being at the top.

 

[Johnnypenso]

This isn't an exact quote, I had to transcribe it from the guy talking in the fifth gear video about the new Pagani Huayra. Keep in mind that the Zonda had a V12:

"When we first talked about [the engine] with AMG, what kind of engine the new Pagani will have, they [AMG] proposed to us a very small, very powerful V8... and we went to our customers and said what do you think if the new Pagani has a V8? They said, 'No. We want a V12 engine.' So they [AMG] said 'OK, but for fuel consumption, emissions and everything, we have to make it with turbos.'"

This is a multi-million dollar company (quick google search says Horacio Pagani is worth $15 million) literally talking to its customers and quite literally being told how to make their vehicle in one major aspect. Yes, it's not an exact analogy, but the point is there. As a business you have to care what your customers think. I'm sure Pagani could've used the V8 and dealt with the loss of some customers, but they decided they cared about their input. I think that's pretty cool. And here's a quick blurb about Ferrari's FXX program:

"FXX owners also participate in Ferrari's testing and brand development programs. As part of the FXX program, the car is maintained by the Ferrari factory. The purpose of this particular program is to allow Ferrari's top customers exclusive access to its most up-to-date technology and to utilize their input in the development of future models."

PD can EASILY do something similar, as far as getting customer feedback, and it would hardly cost them anything. And I really doubt Kaz is losing sleep over people complaining on a forum, I don't get why some of you guys make it like that. The more successful a company, the more scrutiny it'll come under. Just like athletes. It's the price of being at the top.

Completely different analogy. I think you'll find most manufacturers that are low volume/high dollar are in direct contact with their customer base constantly. When Buyer X says he wants Feature A, he might be plopping down $1Million to get it. On top of that, they have direct competition for that customer, PD doesn't, not yet anyway.

 

[The_Rpg_Moogle]

While I do appreciate people having the best interest in the GT series and thus commenting on lesser aspects to try and make it better, there's one thing in this discussion that's absolutely making me sick, and that's everyone saying that Forza 4 is so much better, like it outdoes any work that PD have put in the GT series.

Just to make things clear, I don't want to start a flame war. I own the game, I play it a lot. I like it. In fact, I love it, it's a good game. But where on earth is this game revolutionary? In what way does it improve the racing genre as a whole? To me, it's like a summary of ALL RACING GAMES THAT CAME BEFORE IT. There's not one feature in that game that is unique. Even Autovista, while awesome, has some of it's roots in NFS II (the car descriptions, photo's, video's, the narrator in that game).

Mind you, it's a good summary of everything. But it never drove the racing genre forward. Everything is borrowed or downright copied from other games. And this is something that people need to be reminded of when they compare it what the GT series did to the racing genre as a whole.

edit: Just to drive my point home and make me look more serious:

 

[TokoTurismo]

While I do appreciate people having the best interest in the GT series and thus commenting on lesser aspects to try and make it better, there's one thing in this discussion that's absolutely making me sick, and that's everyone saying that Forza 4 is so much better.

Just to make things clear, I don't want to start a flame war. I own the game, I play it a lot. I like it. In fact, I love it, it's a good game. But where on earth is this game revolutionary? In what way does it improve the racing genre as a whole? To me, it's like a summary of ALL RACING GAMES THAT CAME BEFORE IT. There's not one feature in that game that is unique. Even Autovista, while awesome, has some of it's roots in NFS II (the car descriptions, photo's, video's, the narrator in that game).

Mind you, it's a good summary of everything. But it never drove the racing genre forward. Everything is borrowed or downright copied from other games. And this is something that people need to be reminded of when they compare it what the GT series did to the racing genre as a whole.

edit: Just to drive my point home and make me look more serious:

To be honest I want to know this too, what did made it special other than the new physics? 0.0

 

[Samus]

While I do appreciate people having the best interest in the GT series and thus commenting on lesser aspects to try and make it better, there's one thing in this discussion that's absolutely making me sick, and that's everyone saying that Forza 4 is so much better, like it outdoes any work that PD have put in the GT series.

Just to make things clear, I don't want to start a flame war. I own the game, I play it a lot. I like it. In fact, I love it, it's a good game. But where on earth is this game revolutionary? In what way does it improve the racing genre as a whole? To me, it's like a summary of ALL RACING GAMES THAT CAME BEFORE IT. There's not one feature in that game that is unique. Even Autovista, while awesome, has some of it's roots in NFS II (the car descriptions, photo's, video's, the narrator in that game).

Mind you, it's a good summary of everything. But it never drove the racing genre forward. Everything is borrowed or downright copied from other games. And this is something that people need to be reminded of when they compare it what the GT series did to the racing genre as a whole.

edit: Just to drive my point home and make me look more serious:

What ideas are there left to do in the racing genre? It's cars and tracks/roads, there is only so much you can do around those aspects but Forza at least tried to move forward the genre today. Autovista might be similar to something years ago but nobody else was doing it today, with today's tech.

It's not about be revolutionary, it's just about adding new features (or revamping old ones if you like) rather than standing still as many felt GT5 did. I mean let me ask you this, remove online and switch out the graphics to PS1 graphics and what major differences are there from GT2 in GT5? Not many, the basic design just hasn't changed in any great deal. The physics have improved but that's not a gameplay element as you seem to be getting at.

But this is only going to turn into a vs discussion and there are threads for that.

 

[USARMYCOMBATVET]

Perhaps, I'm no expert. I would certainly call that era a peak in JDM car culture here in the States, but maybe I was over-generalizing in regards to car culture as a whole.

The point I'm trying to make is that establishing a loyal fanbase was easier in the 1990s and early 2000s than it is today, which is why GT's sales are higher than Forza's. Car culture was clearly more popular in that era than it is today. I don't think anyone would disagree with that.

It's also important to note that exponential advances in hardware and software played a large role in Gran Turismo's success as a franchise. Timing is everything as they say.

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

While I do appreciate people having the best interest in the GT series and thus commenting on lesser aspects to try and make it better, there's one thing in this discussion that's absolutely making me sick, and that's everyone saying that Forza 4 is so much better, like it outdoes any work that PD have put in the GT series.

I dislike it when people do that as well. IMO there are 3 things about Forza 4 that are better than GT5 and they are a big deal.
1: The leaderboard system
2: The Rivals events
3: Part Chat - has nothing to do with Forza but it does make the game more enjoyable when you can chat with your friends while online even if you're not in the same race lobby or any lobby at all.

Oddly when people compare the games these things rarely come up.

 

[Keef]

...it's a good game.

You said the key word right here. Forza is a better game than GT. Is it a better driving/racing simulator? No. Is it as serious? No. Is it as authentic or famous? No. But it is a much better game because it allows you to do more cool stuff that you wish you could do in real life.

 

[Exorcet]

While I do appreciate people having the best interest in the GT series and thus commenting on lesser aspects to try and make it better, there's one thing in this discussion that's absolutely making me sick, and that's everyone saying that Forza 4 is so much better, like it outdoes any work that PD have put in the GT series.

Just to make things clear, I don't want to start a flame war. I own the game, I play it a lot. I like it. In fact, I love it, it's a good game. But where on earth is this game revolutionary? In what way does it improve the racing genre as a whole? To me, it's like a summary of ALL RACING GAMES THAT CAME BEFORE IT. There's not one feature in that game that is unique. Even Autovista, while awesome, has some of it's roots in NFS II (the car descriptions, photo's, video's, the narrator in that game).

Mind you, it's a good summary of everything. But it never drove the racing genre forward. Everything is borrowed or downright copied from other games. And this is something that people need to be reminded of when they compare it what the GT series did to the racing genre as a whole.

edit: Just to drive my point home and make me look more serious:

Being unique for the sake of being unique is pointless. Good trumps unique, and Forza is good. It has flaws, but overall I feel it's a stronger game.

You said the key word right here. Forza is a better game than GT. Is it a better driving/racing simulator? No. Is it as serious? No. Is it as authentic or famous? No. But it is a much better game because it allows you to do more cool stuff that you wish you could do in real life.

I'd actually say yes, by a measurable amount. The combinations of physics and the ability to handcraft a race to your liking is something that makes Forza pretty strong.