Atheists most distrusted minority?

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Joey D
Right, you could make the argument they were evil due to a lack of religion, thus not being taught a form of morality (I am not saying an atheist can't be moral, so hold off on the flame-fest).
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You can't make that argument because morality doesn't come from religion.

My point in all of this saying religion is cause for all that's bad in the world is not true.
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I'm sure we all agree. The point where we may not agree is if religion has anything of value to give to society. I think not.
 
nitrorocks
If you don't like Christians then you might want to reconsider your favorite racing driver
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Jody Scheckter, then?

See, that's exactly the dogmatic and narrow-minded thinking that atheists detest (or any rational thinker of any stripe, for that matter), because they are mutually exclusive concepts, except their rituals primarily occur on Sundays.

Stop derailing the thread.
 
This thread has turned from a contested discussion to mudslinging and petty point scoring. From both sides.

Keep it civil, folks.
 
nitrorocks
I mean if he doesnt like us Christians, it's kind of funny how he likes a Christian racing driver
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People like race car drivers for their driving. Could care less about their religious beliefs. You have no point.
 
Exorcet
You can't make that argument because morality doesn't come from religion.
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Right, but people learn morality from a culture, which is typically heavily connected with a religion. So there is an argument to be made, it's not as black and white as you seem to be making it.

Exorcet
I'm sure we all agree. The point where we may not agree is if religion has anything of value to give to society. I think not.
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If you can't see the value of religion in society, you're as blind as a majority of atheist. Religion does promote morality in culture, it's a great vehicle to teach core moral values like not stealing, lying, killing, etc. Once again I am not in anyway saying you can't be moral without religion so lets us not go down that road.

Religion is also very involved in charitable work, the hospital I work at is a Catholic organization and does millions in charity care every year. Would you rather have those millions picked up by taxpayers or through donors to a charity? Where would those people be if there was no government assistance at all? Would you rather just let people die in society?

Religion isn't all damnation, persecuting and cluelessness many atheist seem to fixated on. Yes there are fanatical, but you get that with every group, from atheists to Honda Civic owners to Gran Turismo players.
 
First of all Jody scheckter was Jewish, and second of all. I find it pretty ridiculous that we're just fighting. I know on the forum were supposed to "discuss things" but we have at least one thing in common and it's why were on this forum. Because we love GT5. What of we saw eachother on another thread? We would have a normal conversation with no arguing. Just because we see that the other person has a value or belief we don't like, we tend to attack. We're all human and have different beliefs. We could see each other in another thread and have a good argument about the current F1 scene, or a series, or a course creator. I hope you get my point, and hopefully no one calls me out on this one.
 
Joey D
Right, but people learn morality from a culture, which is typically heavily connected with a religion. So there is an argument to be made, it's not as black and white as you seem to be making it.
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OK, but a culture does not need to have a religion.


If you can't see the value of religion in society, you're as blind as a majority of atheist. Religion does promote morality in culture, it's a great vehicle to teach core moral values like not stealing, lying, killing, etc. Once again I am not in anyway saying you can't be moral without religion so lets us not go down that road.

Religion is also very involved in charitable work, the hospital I work at is a Catholic organization and does millions in charity care every year. Would you rather have those millions picked up by taxpayers or through donors to a charity? Where would those people be if there was no government assistance at all? Would you rather just let people die in society?

Religion isn't all damnation, persecuting and cluelessness many atheist seem to fixated on. Yes there are fanatical, but you get that with every group, from atheists to Honda Civic owners to Gran Turismo players.
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Why have religion teach morals? Why not just tell kids not to steal? Why is not stealing and going to mass better than not stealing and not going to mass?

Like morality, religion is not the only path to charity, so that argument doesn't work. Yes, I know that you don't think that religion is the only way to be moral, but if that's the case your argument is not very clear.

nitrorocks
First of all Jody scheckter was Jewish, and second of all. I find it pretty ridiculous that we're just fighting. I know on the forum were supposed to "discuss things" but we have at least one thing in common and it's why were on this forum. Because we love GT5. What of we saw eachother on another thread? We would have a normal conversation with no arguing. Just because we see that the other person has a value or belief we don't like, we tend to attack. We're all human and have different beliefs. We could see each other in another thread and have a good argument about the current F1 scene, or a series, or a course creator. I hope you get my point, and hopefully no one calls me out on this one.
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The last few posts are kind of heading in a certain direction. But discussion is discussion. People can argue without hate. I'm only here because I feel like discussing this, just like a few months ago you didn't see me outside of the GT5 section of the forum. I'll eventually get bored with the religious debate and go somewhere else as I've done before.
 


Nitro, this thread (and other religion based threads) aren't for fighting. This subforum is about discussion of opinions within a harassment-free (generally) environment where you are responsible for backing up your claims. I don't think anyone here is 'fighting' with you, we'd just like to hear you out on how you explain your side of things 👍
 
Exorcet
OK, but a culture does not need to have a religion.
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Right, I think I mention that by saying a culture typically has a religion.

Exorcet
Why have religion teach morals? Why not just tell kids not to steal? Why is not stealing and going to mass better than not stealing and not going to mass?

Like morality, religion is not the only path to charity, so that argument doesn't work. Yes, I know that you don't think that religion is the only way to be moral, but if that's the case your argument is not very clear.
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I..I..I can't be any clearer then I already am, but let me try.

  • Religion is a vehicle for morality, it's not the only way.
  • Religion provides charity, therefore has a positive impact on society, but religion is not the only way.

My argument does work. You said "The point where we may not agree is if religion has anything of value to give to society. I think not." I provided you with an example of how religion does give something of value to society. I don't know any simpler way to put it.
 
Tesla
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/560/damndirtyatheists.png/

Nitro, this thread (and other religion based threads) aren't for fighting. This subforum is about discussion of opinions within a harassment-free (generally) environment where you are responsible for backing up your claims. I don't think anyone here is 'fighting' with you, we'd just like to hear you out on how you explain your side of things 👍
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True 👍 still new to forums. Well........kindof
 
I wasn't going to post in here,because i don't normally discuss these types of things,but i had something interesting happen to me the other day,plus it angered me at the same time.

First off i want to say i'm in the middle,not christian nor am i an atheist.I believe that there are many gods and not just one.If you go back and look at ancient texts it describes not one, but many gods.You can take these texts with a grain of salt,just as you could take the bible with a grain of salt.

Ok now on to what happened to me the other day.I work at a grocery store so i see many people day in and day out.Me and a couple of the co-workers were talking football.We were arguing about Tim Tebow.I told them how much i didn't like the guy and described why they are going to lose next week.A lady overheard me and said "If you don't like Tebow then you don't like God and she goes on to tell me how he is God's QB".

I had to keep my lips sealed because i was about to say "Really?So God just came down and told you this?"I can't believe how naive some people are these days.
 
Joey D
You said "The point where we may not agree is if religion has anything of value to give to society. I think not." I provided you with an example of how religion does give something of value to society. I don't know any simpler way to put it.
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Religion has to be the only way to get morality or charity for it to have value. If you removed religion, you would not lose anything because any good part of religion isn't part of religion at all, it's something else.

Charity is charity. Some religions, or even all religions could be focused on charity, but since charity is able to exist without the religion, there is really no benefit to following the religion.

Look at it like this, a religion can take a tithe or donation that it uses for funding. Why not just directly give this money to charity. It's being wasted if it goes into building churches to house people to pray to something that does not exist, right? (I don't mean to pick on Christianity, but it's probably the one most people here are familiar with).

It is better to have people give to charity, not steal, and all that if on top of that they don't waste 1 hour and 10% income every Sunday.
 
Dude27
I'm actually proud and sad at the same time...Proud to be atheist and sad that so much people still believes in fairy tales responsible for so much intolerance, hate and deaths during the human history.
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You realize you are just preaching the same intolerance by insulting people with blanket type comments? A higher percentage of atheists I know are actually less tolerant than religious people I know, and certainly aren't any smarter or better educated.

Religion was often just a cover for wars anyhow, which generally are driven by a desire for resources and power. It is just the educated elite knew how to manipulate the masses with a belief system. Atheism isn't somehow above this in anyway, as many people by into what they think is science, when it is again nothing more than propaganda.

fitftw
I hated saying the pledge of allegiance in school all the way up until college. Every single day, saying the words "one nation, under god" etc. I absolutely hated it. Brainwashing SOB's. If we didn't have to say that bullcrap every day, I guarantee there would be a lot less god-fearing people.
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Oh no, brain washing. Good thing people can learn to think for themselves, and mentioning God in one line of a pledge really trumps what kids experience at home :rolleyes:

You honestly aren't any better than the people that claim the US is a religious nation.
 
Azuremen
Oh no, brain washing. Good thing people can learn to think for themselves, and mentioning God in one line of a pledge really trumps what kids experience at home :rolleyes:

You honestly aren't any better than the people that claim the US is a religious nation.
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Actually you should know that most children DON'T think for themselves. When you're growing up in schools at 5,6,7 years old hearing the word God every day, you're impressionable and brainwashed.

The only way for you to prove me wrong, or for me to prove you wrong, is to somehow perform a test without the pledge of allegiance on kids 5-10 years old, and then use the same kids from 5-10 years old and NOT have a pledge of allegiance. Too bad such a thing is impossible. I'd bet fewer children would wind up religious.

By the way, isn't the pledge of allegiance banned now as of like 5+ years ago? I'm pretty sure they don't do it anymore.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_Pledge_of_Allegiance

"More specific objections have been raised since the addition of the phrase "under God" to the Pledge. The year of its addition, 1954, was also near the beginning of the Cold War anti-communist movement in the United States. Some anti-communist ideology in the U.S. identified the Soviet states with atheism.

The words "under God" were added to the Pledge on 14 June 1954 when then U.S. President Dwight D. Eisenhower signed a bill into law. At the time, Eisenhower stated that "From this day forward, the millions of our school children will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and rural schoolhouse, the dedication of our Nation and our people to the Almighty.""
 
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fitftw
Actually you should know that most children DON'T think for themselves. When you're growing up in schools at 5,6,7 years old hearing the word God every day, you're impressionable and brainwashed.

The only way for you to prove me wrong, or for me to prove you wrong, is to somehow perform a test without the pledge of allegiance on kids 5-10 years old, and then use the same kids from 5-10 years old and NOT have a stupid pledge of allegiance. Too bad such a thing is impossible.
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You mean perform a test ala science? Crazy, I'm sure we could look at kids from other countries where things are different as well, and see how that turns, but not really the issue here.

You are neglecting the fact that religious basis is built at home far more than at school, where parent's install their values in their children. Unless you think the minute of time put into "god" at school will override the hours and hours spent at home with family, and possibly in church?

Apparently you said it and look how you turned out; clearly that brain washing works. Honestly, you sound just as bad as the people that constantly talk about how evolution being taught in school's will corrupt their child's mind. Use some of that logical thought you mentioned earlier, please. You'll make the non-religious people look better.

And congratulations, you can copy and paste Wikipedia and not even read through the whole thing. Adding "Under God" had very little to do with God and far more to deal with politics, as the Soviet Union forced atheism on its citizens. As a resulted, the government decided we should stand against the "Communist" threat in every way possible. Basically, propaganda. Which is more or less what the "godless Communists" also did din their own way.
 
My only logical thought is that nothing about this life is logical. It's all madness piled on top of itself.

In the words of Kurt Cobain "All I know is that I don't know nothing" because I know some things, but what "they" are is not important because nothing truly is.
 
fitftw
Actually you should know that most children DON'T think for themselves. When you're growing up in schools at 5,6,7 years old hearing the word God every day, you're impressionable and brainwashed.

The only way for you to prove me wrong, or for me to prove you wrong, is to somehow perform a test without the pledge of allegiance on kids 5-10 years old, and then use the same kids from 5-10 years old and NOT have a pledge of allegiance. Too bad such a thing is impossible. I'd bet fewer children would wind up religious.

By the way, isn't the pledge of allegiance banned now as of like 5+ years ago? I'm pretty sure they don't do it anymore.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_Pledge_of_Allegiance

"More specific objections have been raised since the addition of the phrase "under God" to the Pledge. The year of its addition, 1954, was also near the beginning of the Cold War anti-communist movement in the United States. Some anti-communist ideology in the U.S. identified the Soviet states with atheism.

The words "under God" were added to the Pledge on 14 June 1954 when then U.S. President Dwight D. Eisenhower signed a bill into law. At the time, Eisenhower stated that "From this day forward, the millions of our school children will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and rural schoolhouse, the dedication of our Nation and our people to the Almighty.""
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Its not brainwash. Just because it says one line. With goes name in it doesn't mean anything. You just don't have to listen. And you've got something against America? Move to another country.
 
fitftw
My only logical thought is that nothing about this life is logical. It's all madness piled on top of itself.
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So then why would you compare atheism to logic?

Please, generate a solid defense to your irrational stance. All I see from you is mud-slinging, which again makes you no better than the religious types that slander "godless heathens."
 
I meant to compare agnosticism to logic, not atheism. Atheism is just as unwise a stance as any religion.
 
fitftw
I meant to compare agnosticism to logic, not atheism. Atheism is just as unwise a stance as any religion.
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I more meant your thoughts on "brainwashing" and how the very simple, not to mention easy to ignore, Pledge would in anyway measure up to what kids learn at home, especially before attending primary education.

The real problem is intolerance, far more than religion. Both atheists and the religious are guilty of this.
 
Joey D
Still atheist that killed though, which was my point. Yes many have been killed in the name of God, but atheism doesn't get off the hook either.
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Okay, so there are atheist killers. I doubt anyone was denying that. I think the point is that atheist killers don't kill for the sake of atheism, whereas there are religious killers who kill for the sake of their religion.

Azuremen
Don't confuse atheism and science though. I know many atheists that certainly don't have scientific view to world. Likewise I know many scientists that are not atheists.
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True. But I bet the majority of active atheists consider science in high regard, and probably most atheists consider science in higher regard than religion.

I'd be willing to bet that the percentage of scientists who are atheist is higher than the percentage of the general population that's athiest. Also, I don't care about the religions of non-atheist scientists, as it doesn't influence the results of their research... unless they're not real scientists, but are instead crackpots trying to forge arguments in favor of their religion.
 
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Lain
Okay, so there are atheist killers. I doubt anyone was denying that. I think the point is that atheist killers don't kill for the sake of atheism, whereas there are religious killers who kill for the sake of their religion.
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Atheism isn't inherently better than religion though. Has far more to do with how tolerant people are, and despite how few people practice it, religion tends to teach tolerance. It is just people are not particularly tolerant, especially when they do not understand things.
 
Azuremen
Atheism isn't inherently better than religion though. Has far more to do with how tolerant people are, and despite how few people practice it, religion tends to teach tolerance. It is just people are not particularly tolerant, especially when they do not understand things.
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Religion tends to teach tolerance? You're joking, right? Because 9/11 is such a great symbol of tolerance... :lol:

I think atheists are more tolerant overall. Most atheists are inactive, and don't care about what other people want to believe in. Religions on the other hand, by their very nature, try to get more people to convert... and it'll sometimes use some downright nasty methods to do so.

I recommend you read God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything.
 
Atheists are far from tolerant. They deny outright any possibility of there being a higher power. You just can't do that. Just like you can't prove there IS a god. So why join either camp? Why not just say "I am not sure if there is or is not a god" and be done with it? Why do you have to choose religion or atheism? Agnosticism is the way to go.

These two topics interest me dearly

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existentialism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism

Existential nihilism is the belief that life has no intrinsic meaning or value. With respect to the universe, existential nihilism posits that a single human or even the entire human species is insignificant, without purpose and unlikely to change in the totality of existence.

Also, solipsism is something to ponder as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism

"Solipsism as an epistemological position holds that knowledge of anything outside one's own mind is unsure. The external world and other minds cannot be known, and might not exist outside the mind. As a metaphysical position, solipsism goes further to the conclusion that the world and other minds do not exist."
 
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Lain
Religion tends to teach tolerance? You're joking, right? Because 9/11 is such a great symbol of tolerance... :lol:

I think atheists are more tolerant overall. Most atheists are inactive, and don't care about what other people want to believe in. Religions on the other hand, by their very nature, try to get more people to convert... and it'll sometimes use some downright nasty methods to do so.

I recommend you read God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything.
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What kind of nasty methods are you thinking of? Because I don't fink Christians do.
 
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