Attack on magazine Charlie Hebdo in Paris.

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“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell

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“The problem with today’s world is that everyone believes they have the right to express their opinion AND have others listen to it.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!”

Brian Cox


from
the internetz.
 
Even if I am not religious at all, but religious values are not "nonsense".
Remember how you need rules for a democracy to function, otherwise you will have an anarchy.
The author of that article is incredible right...
Freedom should always be discussed within the context of responsibility. At some point free expression absolutism becomes childish and unserious. It becomes its own kind of fanaticism.

And one side's fanaticism will ignite the other side's fanaticism, because of lack of responsibility.

Also remember and respect what he says about
Ridiculing the non-privileged is almost never funny—it’s just mean.
 
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Even if I am not religious at all, but religious values are not "nonsense".
Remember haw you need rules for a democracy to function, otherwise you will have an anarchy.
The author of that article is incredible right...

And one side's fanaticism will ignite the other side's fanaticism, because of lack of responsibility.

Also remember and respect what he says about
Drawing cartoons isn't fanatacism, nor is anyone injured or harmed in the process. Western culture has a long and rich history of lampooning through political cartoons and satire. 9/11 jokes began not long after 9/11. A President gets impeached and the jokes fly and are still flying to this day.

Showing up with AK-47's and trying to kill a few dozen people is where the fanatacism begins and ends.
 
That was not only "drawing cartoons".... unfortunately... This is what most of the people refuse to accept or understand. It was "mocking" spiritual values of the poor and, as the author mentions in that brilliant article, non-privileged.
Do not even try to point to the "western culture", because (like many others through the history) was suffocated by hatred, abuses and crimes.
9/11 jokes are not ok in any form of shape. Only the fact that those caricatures were not published by the rest of the media and were not shown on television, shows how offensive they were, but, during the years, everybody smiled, looked the other way and ignored the profound abusive cartoons. The fact that Charlie Hebdo mocked everybody created a safe cover for the abuse towards, again, the non-privileged.
I am not against humor at all, but when you produce it you will need to frame it properly as "pamphlet" or some sort of comedy form of art. You only say whatever and whenever only if you are from "Coo-coo's nest", not from the real society, because everybody understands how society, in order to function properly, needs to promote/have individual respect as the fundamental value of it's core.
That's why, the first thing you want to teach your kids is to be respectful, and understand the relation between respect and humor from a very young age.
If you step in a temple, church, mosque, synagogue and try to make any kind of joke, first you will look stupid and then you will feel stupid, only because of your lack of respect while treated with respect. It is mostly education.
Comparing a "President" with a "God" or "Prophet" is amusing and it is not a good example.

You are correct - an AK47 is not an answer, but is a sign of desperation. Those people don't want to win because, at that point in their life, they are convinced 100% there is no real possibility for them to have a chance to be successful. We, as a developed society, need to understand, find the right approach and help them to adapt. Charlie Hebdo was not part of such a "plan". Terror by a criminal act, will inflict some damage (that is the only thing they can do) but wont resolve (they already know) the problem.

By following the money, you will understand Charlie's Hebdo politics. Every action (editorial policy) has a logical (from a given perspective) reason. The owners of Charlie Hebdo allowed (not did) that to happened, by encouraging the stupid humor. They had an option to draw an ETHICAL line, but they did not.
If anybody thinks this was, or is, about freedom of speech, is wrong. It is about abuse of non-privileged. That form of humor was/is a form of harsh rejection, because those people identify themselves with their values. Well, most of you will say, that still is not enough to get an AK47 and kill, and you will be partially correct as long as you will not consider the context. It looks like most of the European countries have a problem (hard to say if it's big or not) with immigration - Muslims immigration in particular. These nations (which essentially are identified by their people) feel their identity threaten by these waves of Muslims, the vast majority of them refugees running for their lives. Well, make the story short, basic human ethical unwritten rule, do not mock the victims, the non-privileged. That is stupid, mean and irresponsible. Better try to help.
Human life is much more important then stupid humor disguised in freedom of speech, making money out of it, or use it to pursue a political agenda.
 
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That was not only "drawing cartoons".... unfortunately... This is what most of the people refuse to accept or understand. It was "mocking" spiritual values of the poor and, as the author mentions is that brilliant article, non-privileged.
Its understood, we simply do not agree.

Why should religion (any) be given a privileged status at all?

You also seem to be under the impression that religion is poor, its not, certainly not the three Abrahamic ones, not but any shot. I think you may be mistaking the use of religion to subjugate the poor with religion being poor.



Do not even try to point to the "western culture", because (like many others through the history) was suffocated by hatred, abuses and crimes.
So because its different one is wrong and the other is right?



9/11 jokes are not ok in any form of shape. Only the fact that those caricatures were not published by the rest of the media and were not shown on television, shows how offensive they were, but, during the years, everybody smiled, looked the other way and ignored the profound abusive cartoons. The fact that Charlie Hebdo mocked everybody created a safe cover for the abuse towards, again, the non-privileged.
Please explain why you get to tell me that I must subscribe to your worldview?

By what mandate do you get to enforce your world view on others?

No one is forced to view this material, quite literally is coverage in the vast majority of Muslim nations would have been zero had it not been for people pointing it out and asking 'are you not offended by this'!

It doesn't not directly harm anyone, nor does it impede on the rights of anyone. Those who do not like it, find it offensive or simply unfunny are well within their rights to respond in a proportionate manner. Voice it in the media, intelligently denounce it, counter it with material of a similar nature, ignore it.

All of these can and should be done in a society that understand its the only way to coexist, banning people from free expression that doesn't do harm or cause harm to be done (and I'm talking actual harm - not hurt feelings) must never happen.



I am not against humor at all, but when you produce it you will need to frame it properly as "pamphlet" or some sort of comedy form of art. You only say whatever and whenever only if you are from "Coo-coo's nest", not from the real society, because everybody understands how society, in order to function properly, needs to promote/have individual respect as the fundamental value of it's core.
That's why, the first thing you want to teach your kids is to be respectful, and understand the relation between respect and humor from a very young age.
If you step in a temple, church, mosque, synagogue and try to make any kind of joke, first you will look stupid and then you will feel stupid, only because of your lack of respect while treated with respect. It is mostly education.
None of this was done in a place of worship at all, had it been so that would have been potentially a violation of freedom of religion (not to mention most likely trespass), laws are already in place to protect this.

What you are asking for is a mandate to control what people can say, when what they are saying doesn't impact on the rights of others.

None of this was done in a
Comparing a "President" with a "God" or "Prophet" is amusing and it is not a good example.
Why?


You are correct - an AK47 is not an answer, but is a sign of desperation. Those people don't want to win because, at that point in their life, they are convinced 100% there is no real possibility for them to have a chance to be successful. We, as a developed society, need to understand, find the right approach and help them to adapt. Charlie Hebdo was not part of such a "plan". Terror by a criminal act, will inflict some damage (that is the only thing they can do) but wont resolve (they already know) the problem.
Yes because no socio-economic drivers exist behind this an need to be addressed at all. If we stop drawing pictures then ISIS will leave us alone.


By following the money, you will understand Charlie's Hebdo politics. Every action (editorial policy) has a logical (from a given perspective) reason. The owners of Charle Hebdo allowed (not did) that to happened, by encouraging the stupid humor. They had an option to draw an ETHICAL line, but they did not.
If anybody thinks this was, or is, about freedom of speech, is wrong. It is about abuse of non-privileged. That form of humor was/is a form of harsh rejection, because those people identify themselves with their values. Well, most of you will say, that still is not enough to get an AK47 and kill, and you will be partially correct as long as you will not consider the context. It looks like most of the European countries have a problem (hard to say if it's big or not) with immigration - Muslims immigration in particular. These nations (which essentially are identified by their people) feel their identity threaten by these waves of Muslims, the vast majority of them refugees running for their lives. Well, make the story short, basic human ethical unwritten rule, do not mock the victims, the non-privileged. That is stupid, mean and irresponsible. Better try to help.
Have you actually seen all of the CH material?

Much of it doesn't mock the victims at all, it mocks those that would use religion to ferment violence and hatred in the name of said religion, it mocks the same people who are targeting these victims, it mocks the people within religion who control the money and power and don't use it to help those of the same faith who are poor and suffering.

WIdvisZ.png
 
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@Scaff

A bit drift topic, but can you show what Charlie Hebdo express to other religion?

I just want to see it. I believe what magazine did is mock all the humanity so "offensive" its actually isnt.
 
@Scaff

A bit drift topic, but can you show what Charlie Hebdo express to other religion?

I just want to see it. I believe what magazine did is mock all the humanity so "offensive" its actually isnt.
Much of that is actually worse (Jesus, God and the 'Holy Spirit involved in a three way) and would fall foul of the sexual content ban in the AUP.

However this one from the Pope's visit to Rio will give you an idea.

o-CHARLIE-HEBDO-570.jpg
 
Much of that is actually worse (Jesus, God and the 'Holy Spirit involved in a three way) and would fall foul of the sexual content ban in the AUP.

However this one from the Pope's visit to Rio will give you an idea.

o-CHARLIE-HEBDO-570.jpg
See, terrorists? YOURE NOT ALONE! You think that, because your religion gone offended, its ok to KILL them? DAMN.

Also why Muhammad drawing is such a Muslim bait? We still didnt exactly knew what Muhammad face looks like, but when someone draw them (which I thought they based it on typical Arab stereotypes) its a huge sin?

Its not like people already knew what actually happened.
 
What do you think about what she is doing?

*I recommend you to check her Wikipedia page before considering her a victim of some sort.
Example - "She is currently the president of theAmerican Freedom Defense Initiativewhich she co-founded withRobert Spencer.[9][10]The American Freedom Defense Initiative has been designated an anti-Muslimhate groupby theSouthern Poverty Law Center, an organization known for tracking hate groups.[11]The British government barred Geller's entry into the UK in 2013 saying her presence would "not be conducive to the public good."
emphasize on hate group
 
@lemonsky
I enjoy free speech, such as it is. But I'm not sure I should enjoy paying for it with self-sacrificing activist/martyrs who draw the issue so sharply. She may be in physical danger, but so might bystanders. Schadenfreude wouldn't feel as fun if innocent victims were hurt.
 
What do you think about what she is doing?

*I recommend you to check her Wikipedia page before considering her a victim of some sort.
Example - "She is currently the president of theAmerican Freedom Defense Initiativewhich she co-founded withRobert Spencer.[9][10]The American Freedom Defense Initiative has been designated an anti-Muslimhate groupby theSouthern Poverty Law Center, an organization known for tracking hate groups.[11]The British government barred Geller's entry into the UK in 2013 saying her presence would "not be conducive to the public good."
emphasize on hate group
What do you think about what a certain group called ISIS is doing? Their body count sure looks bigger than Geller's. In fact, it appears she has never killed anyone. Stirred up, sure, but that's perfectly legal in America. You're comically focusing on making up excuses on why it's OK to call for her death, while being either willingly ignorant, or just plain too cowardly to call out the real problem.
 
@Carbonox
You are putting the carriage in front of the horses.
What Pamela is doing doesn't have anything to do with ISIS.
"She created a blog calledAtlas Shrugsin 2004. (The title of the blog recallsAtlas Shrugged, a novel byAyn Rand.) The blog gained thousands of readers in 2006 when Geller reprinted the controversial cartoons of Muhammad originally published in theJyllands-Posten."
Back in 2004 was no ISIS.
She is inciting - "She was cited 12 times and praised inAnders Behring Breivik's manifesto" - do you remeber how many people this guy killed back in 2011? 77 - mass murder
I am focusing on what is generating hate and death. That is the main problem.
 
@Carbonox
You are putting the carriage in front of the horses.
What Pamela is doing doesn't have anything to do with ISIS.
"She created a blog calledAtlas Shrugsin 2004. (The title of the blog recallsAtlas Shrugged, a novel byAyn Rand.) The blog gained thousands of readers in 2006 when Geller reprinted the controversial cartoons of Muhammad originally published in theJyllands-Posten."
Back in 2004 was no ISIS.
She is inciting - "She was cited 12 times and praised inAnders Behring Breivik's manifesto" - do you remeber how many people this guy killed back in 2011? 77 - mass murder
I am focusing on what is generating hate and death. That is the main problem.
You haven't shown an ounce of proof that she has caused anyone to die. By the way, just because Breivik was fond of her and her opinions, doesn't make her responsible for any of his crimes. I saw no one but Breivik pulling the trigger in that cowardly massacre.

But you know, it's easy to speak out against Geller rather than the Islamists when you know you won't be retaliated against with violence, eh?
 
What do you think about what a certain group called ISIS is doing?
This is a monumentally stupid false equivalency. He did not say that it was justified to kill her. He did not say that she is as bad as ISIS. It is not comparable to speak out about a hate group in the US and to speak out against ISIS.

But you know, it's easy to speak out against Geller rather than the Islamists when you know you won't be retaliated against with violence, eh?
It's not really adding anything to the discussion to say "ISIS is bad". Of course they are, is anyone seriously disputing that ISIS is bad or painting them as a victim?

ISIS is a morally abhorrent organization whose goals are blatantly unacceptable. I also believe hate groups are wrong and dislike people who are a part of them.

 
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This is a monumentally stupid false equivalency. He did not say that it was justified to kill her. He did not say that she is as bad as ISIS. It is not comparable to speak out about a hate group in the US and to speak out against ISIS.


It's not really adding anything to the discussion to say "ISIS is bad". Of course they are, is anyone seriously disputing that ISIS is bad or painting them as a victim?

ISIS is a morally abhorrent organization whose goals are blatantly unacceptable. I also believe hate groups are wrong and dislike people who are a part of them.
The point being that so far, he hasn't made a single effort to condemn this most recent action of ISIS, but only listed reasons on why she's such a horrible person and doesn't deserve victim status even though she was just exposed to a potential terrorist attack!
 
Now now, we don't need a trigger warning for a brilliant cartoon that I believe is more effective than the original picture in shaming "Christian" Europe's farcical response to the migrant crisis.
 
Actually yes we do... it's not the cartoons but the photographs in the article that make it appropriate to link instead of posting them up here, so thanks @TenEightyOne for the courtesy 👍*

The latest CH cartoon is horrible, dark humour, but is highly effective. The Twittersphere has already imploded with moral outrage and people taking back their 'Je Suis Charlie!' comments from a few months ago, illustrating perfectly (if you pardon the pun) how to royally miss the point of Charlie Hebdo entirely.


* By the same token, I wish certain friends and family members would extend the same courtesy on Facebook and not be so quick to post pictures of dead children that will show up on my News Feed, presumably because they think a) I need to care more about Syrian migrants and/or b) I need a reminder that we live in a world where horrible things happen every day....believe me, I don't need either, and posting pictures of dead children isn't going to help anything.
 
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Actually yes we do... it's not the cartoons but the photographs in the article that make it appropriate to link instead of posting them up here, so thanks @TenEightyOne for the courtesy 👍*

The latest CH cartoon is horrible, dark humour, but is highly effective. The Twittersphere has already imploded with moral outrage and people taking back their 'Je Suis Charlie!' comments from a few months ago, illustrating perfectly (if you pardon the pun) how to royally miss the point of Charlie Hebdo entirely.


* By the same token, I wish certain friends and family members would extend the same courtesy on Facebook and not be so quick to post pictures of dead children that will show up on my News Feed, presumably because they think a) I need to care more about Syrian migrants and/or b) I need a reminder that we live in a world where horrible things happen every day....believe me, I don't need either, and posting pictures of dead children isn't going to help anything.
It is funny isn't it. Attack another group and everyone supports them, attack the ones who were supporting them and they are disgusting.
 
Says something that I skipped past a picture of a dead child in reading the article, apologies TenEightyOne..

This whole situation reminds me of those words Bainbridge said after the nuclear test.
 
Who knew Charlie Hebdo could be so offensive!

Absolutement, I think there were a good number of people who hadn't heard of them prior to the armed attack on their staff who recoiled at the attack on something so innocent as a comic - particularly in Britain where we don't have anything quite like Charlie Hebdo in our publishing history. Maybe Viz, but that doesn't tread any fine line at all. Charlie Hebdo really isn't innocent and has never stopped shy of the edge.

That doesn't justify guns against words, of course. Interesting to see how misunderstood (at least in my opinion) the latest cartoons have been. Part of Hebdo's humour is subjective though and the internet isn't usually a place that mulls things over too carefully.
 
The latest CH cartoon is horrible, dark humour, but is highly effective. The Twittersphere has already imploded with moral outrage and people taking back their 'Je Suis Charlie!' comments from a few months ago, illustrating perfectly (if you pardon the pun) how to royally miss the point of Charlie Hebdo entirely.

To paraphrase @Imari, it's stunning how people will champion the Voltaire notion of "I disagree with what you say but will defend your right to say it"... until they actually hear or see something they disagree with!
 
That doesn't justify guns against words.
This is the problem a lot of the OCE forum has. Reality =/= what is right.

Just because it isn't right doesn't mean you shouldn't expect militant people to shoot up the place when they insult their religion.
 
This is the problem a lot of the OCE forum has. Reality =/= what is right.
Actually I don't think that is the problem - the majority of major contributors know this but think that it's a goal to strive for.

With that in mind:

Just because it isn't right doesn't mean you shouldn't expect people to shoot up the place when they insult their religion.
It doesn't mean that it should be tolerated when it happens.

We need to get away from the mindset that just because this is how things are, this is how they will remain. Things that aren't right should be condemned, not accepted because you should expect it to happen because society.
 
Missed this earlier. Amazing how many people blatantly missed the meaning of those comics when they called them offensive. The McDonalds billboard is pretty heavy handed satire.
 
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