Audi engine in F1 in 2016 isn't happening

[Legro]

What about Bentley in LMP1 and Audi in F1? Heck could even just rename and redo the styling of the Joest/Audi R18 e-Tron Quattro into (hypothetically) the Bentley Speed 10...great to have green at Le Mans again.

I'd be happy if that happened, but I doubt they would do that. Then again they already won Le Mans 24h in Audi disguised as Bentley 11 years ago.

 

[catamount39]

I'd be happy if that happened, but I doubt they would do that. Then again they already won Le Mans 24h in Audi disguised as Bentley 11 years ago.

And that was basically Joest/Audi running as "The Bentley Boys" (entirely), so it might work. But like you said it probably won't happen. Would be neat though. Someone send that idea to VW.

 

[TenEightyOne]

What about Bentley in LMP1 and Audi in F1? Heck could even just rename and redo the styling of the Joest/Audi R18 e-Tron Quattro into (hypothetically) the Bentley Speed 10...great to have green at Le Mans again. Besides Bentley and Porsche competing isn't as obvious as Audi and Porsche.

How could Audi and Porsche compete though? They're both Volkswagen brands, would they spend money to have them compete against each other?

 

[catamount39]

How could Audi and Porsche compete though? They're both Volkswagen brands, would they spend money to have them compete against each other?

That's what I was saying in the first place that Porsche is there because they wanted to be and that VW allowed them in because they wanted them to be. But I was saying that IF they did want to, they could have Audi in F1 and Bentley basically take their place in LMP1. My overall feeling though is that Audi stays in WEC eitherway.

 

[TenEightyOne]

That's what I was saying in the first place that Porsche is there because they wanted to be and that VW allowed them in because they wanted them to be. But I was saying that IF they did want to, they could have Audi in F1 and Bentley basically take their place in LMP1. My overall feeling though is that Audi stays in WEC eitherway.

But you're proposing Bentley as an aliased-Audi. Why would VW run as two competing names in the same series? Bentley .vs. Porsche or Audi .vs. Porsche is still VWAG .vs. VWAG, whatever the discipline.

 

[catamount39]

But you're proposing Bentley as an aliased-Audi. Why would VW run as two competing names in the same series? Bentley .vs. Porsche or Audi .vs. Porsche is still VWAG .vs. VWAG, whatever the discipline.

Just because we know it, doesn't mean the overall market does. And at any rate, VW apparently wants that setup as they entered Porsche and Audi didn't they? And if they want diversification and have Audi go to F1 and it becomes costly, have Bentley take their WEC spot. Audi's rumoured to be leaving DTM anyway...so if this F1 thing is for real and they do dig into it, let Bentley enter WEC with Joest's crew.

Audi and Porsche are pretty similar in market...but not Bentley and Porsche.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Just because we know it, doesn't mean the overall market does. And at any rate, VW apparently wants that setup as they entered Porsche and Audi didn't they? And if they want diversification and have Audi go to F1 and it becomes costly, have Bentley take their WEC spot. Audi's rumoured to be leaving DTM anyway...so if this F1 thing is for real and they do dig into it, let Bentley enter WEC with Joest's crew.

Audi and Porsche are pretty similar in market...but not Bentley and Porsche.

VW entered Porsche (so to speak), yes. The question of this whole thread is will they pull Audi as an eventual result?

Bentley and Porsche are in exactly the same markets aren't they? Bentley do some quite expensive cars now. And I think most of the market is aware that a VW/Audi/Porsche/Skoda are all the same people... especially given that they often share dealerships for obvious reasons.

 

[catamount39]

VW entered Porsche (so to speak), yes. The question of this whole thread is will they pull Audi as an eventual result?

Bentley and Porsche are in exactly the same markets aren't they? Bentley do some quite expensive cars now. And I think most of the market is aware that a VW/Audi/Porsche/Skoda are all the same people... especially given that they often share dealerships for obvious reasons.

You make a good point. Course it's less obvious here in America than in Europe I'd imagine. Heck explain the Mazda/VW dealership not far from where I am? Strange combo.

Well Bentley makes cars like 170,000 and up...Porsche's most expensive road car (barring the million dollar 918) is the 911 GT3 RS isn't it? Which is around the 140,000 mark? So I wouldn't really place them together.

I still think that VWAG see's Audi's WEC run as a dynasty and continues it...but has Porsche to nip at their heals. Remember Nissan is coming back with the GTR LMP1-H thingy...not to mention Toyota's successful (yet bad luck filled) campaign and possibly the TS050. But we'll see...they did (as mentioned before) pull out of the WRC at their peak.

 

[TenEightyOne]

You make a good point. Course it's less obvious here in America than in Europe I'd imagine. Heck explain the Mazda/VW dealership not far from where I am? Strange combo.

Well Bentley makes cars like 170,000 and up...Porsche's most expensive road car (barring the million dollar 918) is the 911 GT3 RS isn't it? Which is around the 140,000 mark? So I wouldn't really place them together.

I still think that VWAG see's Audi's WEC run as a dynasty and continues it...but has Porsche to nip at their heals. Remember Nissan is coming back with the GTR LMP1-H thingy...not to mention Toyota's successful (yet bad luck filled) campaign and possibly the TS050. But we'll see...they did (as mentioned before) pull out of the WRC at their peak.

Mazda/VW is obviously because they, erm, I mean they, err. Anyway.

The list prices for Bentleys and Porsches might be similar (with Bentley topping out on the book) but how many people pay as little as that? By the time you've upspecced your car you can be into the late 100s very quickly. You can't do much to a GT3 of course but other models are more upgradable.

Also there's the Carrera GT (not current, I think?) that sits between the "normal" top of the Porsche book and the hybrid-Spyder too, they're about 400k? Then there's the Bentley Continental, quite "budget" compared to some models.

 

[RACECAR]

No, Infiniti is a division of Nissan (a la Acura/Honda et al), Nissan is a partner with Renault. The team name is clearly a result of IRBR's Renault partnership, if they changed supplier they'd have to make a new entry (a rubber-stamp exercise but required nonetheless), it seems pretty clear they'd drop Infiniti.

Thing is, Renault owns a huge Stake in Nissan so that appears to be more then a partnership. As for infinity, sure its a division but its still owned by Nissan. It even has influence from Nissan Chairman & CEO AND Renault Chairman & CEO Carlos Ghosn.

Audi & Porsche - WEC
VW - WRC
Skoda - WRC
Lamborghini - F1
Seat - WTCC

Sound about right?

You forgot Bentley in GT3.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Well, just to chuck a few other things out there... VW can call the shots with brands it owns, which includes Porsche AG... but VW AG is 50.7% owned by Porsche SE Holding Company... 75+% of which is controlled by people whose surname is Porsche... so it's not beyond the realms of possibility that Porsche will still do whatever they want without it affecting Audi too much.

As for competing with itself in other disciplines,..

If you're going to sell customer cars, it's a good thing... you make money from each Porsche GT3, Huracan GT3, Bentley GT3, and R8 GT3 that you sell, and it gives great brand exposure, without necessarily being directly linked to a factory effort.

If you're going to run a full works team, it makes less sense, you just end up spending more - which yes, can be put down to a "marketing budget", but unless you field two teams with the same car underneath the bodywork, you're just going to be spending a truckload of money to compete with yourself... the only real benefit in which is covering your bases and increasing your chances of winning through shear weight of numbers.

 

[catamount39]

Well, just to chuck a few other things out there... VW can call the shots with brands it owns, which includes Porsche AG... but VW AG is 50.7% owned by Porsche SE Holding Company... 75+% of which is controlled by people whose surname is Porsche... so it's not beyond the realms of possibility that Porsche will still do whatever they want without it affecting Audi too much.

As for competing with itself in other disciplines,..

If you're going to sell customer cars, it's a good thing... you make money from each Porsche GT3, Huracan GT3, Bentley GT3, and R8 GT3 that you sell, and it gives great brand exposure, without necessarily being directly linked to a factory effort.

If you're going to run a full works team, it makes less sense, you just end up spending more - which yes, can be put down to a "marketing budget", but unless you field two teams with the same car underneath the bodywork, you're just going to be spending a truckload of money to compete with yourself... the only real benefit in which is covering your bases and increasing your chances of winning through shear weight of numbers.

Course a case could be made for experimenting with hybrid drive systems and engines as the R18 uses a V6T diesel with a flywheel recovery system for the hybrid drive...and the 919 is a 4 cylinder turbo with a battery based system.

 

[Dennisch]

Maybe we'll see Porsche in F1 too, instead of any of the VAG brands.
In my eyes that would be the best option on the list.

 

[TenEightyOne]

If you're going to sell customer cars, it's a good thing... you make money from each Porsche GT3, Huracan GT3, Bentley GT3, and R8 GT3 that you sell, and it gives great brand exposure, without necessarily being directly linked to a factory effort.

If you're going to run a full works team, it makes less sense, you just end up spending more - which yes, can be put down to a "marketing budget", but unless you field two teams with the same car underneath the bodywork, you're just going to be spending a truckload of money to compete with yourself... the only real benefit in which is covering your bases and increasing your chances of winning through shear weight of numbers.

That's a good point actually. I guess the "self competition" effect runs out though when you get up to prototype racing like LMP or F1 where you only sell the brand and the idea that the tech is in the brand's road cars. You're probably right about model-to-model competition in silhouette/spec competitions.

 

[mustafur]

Thing is, Renault owns a huge Stake in Nissan so that appears to be more then a partnership. As for infinity, sure its a division but its still owned by Nissan. It even has influence from Nissan Chairman & CEO AND Renault Chairman & CEO Carlos Ghosn.



You forgot Bentley in GT3.

The partnership is Renault owns 51% of Nissan and Nissan owns 49% of Renault.

Even though Renault holds controlling stake they share power.

 

[RACECAR]

The partnership is Renault owns 51% of Nissan and Nissan owns 49% of Renault.

Even though Renault holds controlling stake they share power.

So basically, they own each other?

 

[mustafur]

So basically, they own each other?

yes

 

[mustafur]

Well, just to chuck a few other things out there... VW can call the shots with brands it owns, which includes Porsche AG... but VW AG is 50.7% owned by Porsche SE Holding Company... 75+% of which is controlled by people whose surname is Porsche... so it's not beyond the realms of possibility that Porsche will still do whatever they want without it affecting Audi too much.

As for competing with itself in other disciplines,..

If you're going to sell customer cars, it's a good thing... you make money from each Porsche GT3, Huracan GT3, Bentley GT3, and R8 GT3 that you sell, and it gives great brand exposure, without necessarily being directly linked to a factory effort.

If you're going to run a full works team, it makes less sense, you just end up spending more - which yes, can be put down to a "marketing budget", but unless you field two teams with the same car underneath the bodywork, you're just going to be spending a truckload of money to compete with yourself... the only real benefit in which is covering your bases and increasing your chances of winning through shear weight of numbers.

Porsche SE and Porsche AG are completely different company's, You have to keep in mind Ferdinand Porsche did Start Volkswagen and Porsche.

 

[catamount39]

Well that answers quite a few questions really. So the Audi move to F1 would be more of a decision based on how VW AG feels about Audi's image then and not really regarding Porsche being in LMP1-H as well.

 

[Tired Tyres]

The only really surprised people when Porsche announced they would enter the WEC where Audi people. They didn't know it was going to happen. That can only lead to one conclusion.

I don't actually think Porsche care what VW think. They do what they want.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Porsche SE and Porsche AG are completely different company's, You have to keep in mind Ferdinand Porsche did Start Volkswagen and Porsche.

Yes I understand that, but the name at the top of the chain is Porsche SE, which controls VW AG, which controls Porsche AG. And importantly, a number of people on the supervisory board at Porsche AG, are board members at Porsche SE -- so it could be the case that they can almost leapfrog, or at least outnumber the VW board..... except for the fact that most of them are on the supervisory board of VW too! It was only last year that Porsche SE relinquished it >50% control of Porsche AG to VW AG.

It really is one big incestuous melting pot of shares, equity, voting rights, board members, financial reports and tax avoidance -- and ultimately it probably isn't the overriding factor in deciding who can race where... I just wanted to put it out there that there it's not necessarily all up to VW.

 

[TenEightyOne]

So basically, they own each other?

It's termed "an alliance". Renault hold more of the Nissan share than vice-versa but the agreement is that all decisions are taken equally. It's a strange business model but, apparently, it works overall.

Yes I understand that, but the name at the top of the chain is Porsche SE, which controls VW AG, which controls Porsche AG. And importantly, a number of people on the supervisory board at Porsche AG, are board members at Porsche SE -- so it could be the case that they can almost leapfrog, or at least outnumber the VW board..... except for the fact that most of them are on the supervisory board of VW too! It was only last year that Porsche SE relinquished it >50% control of Porsche AG to VW AG.

The whole Porsche SE/VWAG acquisition was long, messy, and (iirc) controversial at times. I think that probably goes beyond the point of this thread though.

The facts are that a single company owns the overall financial interests in making and selling Porsches, Audis, Bentleys, VWs and Skodas. Maybe some of those members are inclined to be pro-Porsche as a brand, that doesn't affect the question of whether or not they'd continue to run two of their brands against each other in the same prototype series.

As I've said before; my own thoughts are that, for Audi, LMP racing can only lead downwards...even if they stay exactly where they are for now. For that reason it makes sense for them to go into the sport that runs the most powerful 1.6 turbo hybrid engines in the world. Engines of that size sell better in Audis than Porsches, one would think.

 

[tribolik]

.... Engines of that size sell better in Audis than Porsches, one would think.

They would probably sell better in Volkswagens... IMO

 

[TenEightyOne]

They would probably sell better in Volkswagens... IMO

But Volkswagen, Audi and Skoda all sell the same sized cars (on the same platforms) with different bodies/spec/prestige. Audi A3s are tremendously popular and I can see the 1.6 hybrid tech sitting in there and the A4 very nicely.

 

[R5]

Wasn't there talk of Renault dropping the F1 engine supply role? If so then it kinda makes sense, as Audi could take the role from Renault and power the Red Bull cars, as that has, over the past few years, been a massive marketing point for Infiniti.

Spoiler: Proof

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2014/01/f1-sponsor-breaks-through-1-billion-barrier-for-tv-exposure/

http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/287842/2012_infiniti_fx_vettel_review.html

 

[mustafur]

But Volkswagen, Audi and Skoda all sell the same sized cars (on the same platforms) with different bodies/spec/prestige. Audi A3s are tremendously popular and I can see the 1.6 hybrid tech sitting in there and the A4 very nicely.

Yeah but Volkswagen sells more then every other brand combined in world wide sales.

 

[MatskiMonk]

The question then becomes, why bother spending the money in F1 when you're already selling 4-5 million cars a year. VW would be better off building a VW branded NASCAR to help recover their US Market sales!

 

[TheCracker]

The only really surprised people when Porsche announced they would enter the WEC where Audi people. They didn't know it was going to happen. That can only lead to one conclusion.

As TenEightyOne said, Audi has nothing more to gain staying in the WEC. They've done their winning at Le Mans, it doesn't really mean anything to anyone anymore. They've proved their point now and the only press they'll get from it now is for losing. Porsche can cover VAG's WEC presence, allowing Audi a shot at making some F1 headlines now F1 has power plants that are a little more relevant to road cars.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Yeah but Volkswagen sells more then every other brand combined in world wide sales.

Perhaps so, but we're talking about Audi's position in particular sports, I'm saying that 1.6 hybrid turbo tech is very relevant to a significant section of their market.

If you're suggesting that Audi (who shifted over 1.5 million cars in the UK last year) should switch to racing as VW (the lower prestige brand who you say already sell more cars) I can't see the point?

 

[mustafur]

Perhaps so, but we're talking about Audi's position in particular sports, I'm saying that 1.6 hybrid turbo tech is very relevant to a significant section of their market.

If you're suggesting that Audi (who shifted over 1.5 million cars in the UK last year) should switch to racing as VW (the lower prestige brand who you say already sell more cars) I can't see the point?

I wasn't suggesting anything, just stating that when it comes to Popularity all are nothing compared to Volkswagens Sales figures.