Audi's A5 gets in shape for 6-Series scrap

[Poverty]

Keep up with the times like Audi couldn't? I think you're just making excuses for a lack of horsepower in the new S6.

lol next S4 will have 390 hp using the 4.2 V8. S models will now arrice at model launch or a couple months after. Is that enough proof that S models are no longer built to challenge M?

If Audi wanted to challange M with the S6 they would have given it the power to do so. Its not as if the 5.2 V10 isnt capable

 

[Poverty]

I don't see the change...2007 Impreza AWD is exactly the same basic design as the '72 Leone. Of course auto locking and then viscous diffs were introduced, but keep in mind that in 1981 Quattro had only manually locking diffs as well.

I cant comment any further on the subject. It was on a subaru forum that I read about subaru opting to follow audi's basic design.

 

[Tornado]

S used to compete with M. It now no longer does. Keep up with the times....

lol next S4 will have 390 hp using the 4.2 V8. S models will now arrice at model launch or a couple months after.

Lol contradiction. I was under the assumption that the next M3 was to have a 400BHP V8. They sound like competitors to me.

Is that enough proof that S models are no longer built to challenge M?

No, not really. In fact, that is proof in detriment to that statement.

Its not as if the 5.2 V10 isnt capable

I have yet to see a car that has proven the opposite.

To the average person they might understeer, which is what audi dialled in on purpose, but a skilled driver can coax it to oversteer.

Do NOT start this argument again. We have covered why that is not the case time and time before. There are three cars in Audi's entire range that what you said effects: The TT, A3 and RS4. Every other Audi understeers inhenrently based on design, not based on Audi making it do so after the fact.

it happened to begin to resemble audi's after the quattro hit the world stage.

Explain the AMC Eagle, then. It beat the Audi by a year, had a viscous differential when the Audi only had a mechanical one and also had full-time AWD. So, Audi copied AMC, by that extension.

From the right angle, in the right light, if it is painted the right color, with the right rims, and if you are sort of nearsighted, a 6 series can look kind of handsome.

I totally agree. If you throw a sheet over it, it totally looks like a Camaro.

 

[///M-Spec]

So the (MY 06) 340-horsepower, $47500 Audi S4 doesn't compete with the 333-horsepower, $48900 BMW M3 but rather with the $37600 225-horsepower BMW 330i?

The 330i made 255 horses for MY2006.

The 335i does come close to S4 performance. Not any better in some depts, but not very far behind either.


M

 

[Poverty]

The next M3 will have 420hp.
If audi wanted S to compete with M they would give the next S4 car more power than the next M3.

The 5.2 V10 is capable of 600hp.

Q7 is on par with class leading dynamics.
S8 can oversteer.
MK2 TT can oversteer.
MK 2 S3 can oversteer.

Get with the times. The understeering audi is dying out, and audi did know that having the engine in the nose would make it understeer. That is a audi safety trait. These engineers are professionals. At the time thats what they wanted

 

[Tornado]

The 5.2 V10 is capable of 600hp.

I'm sure.

Q7 is on par with class leading dynamics.

Which really means diddly squat, as it is a 7 seater SUV. Class leading dynamics in that size class essentially means it doesn't roll over and explode going into turns.

S8 can oversteer.

I'd love to see that. I agree that it is pretty good considering the chassis and layout, not to mention weight, but it is still a near-2000kg, AWD car.

MK2 TT can oversteer.
MK 2 S3 can oversteer.

And I quite clearly stated that I knew they could.

Get with the times.

I am with the times. The next 2-3 years is not "the times." The here and now is "the times."

The understeering audi is dying out, and audi did know that having the engine in the nose would make it understeer. That is a audi safety trait. These engineers are professionals. At the time thats what they wanted

So, Pinto's exploded because it was a feature?
At the time the cars turned out the way they were because that was what the bean counters forced on the Audi engineers, as you said yourself. It only came with the added benefit of understeer at the limit because it would have been too expensive to make it any other way. I'm sure the engineers didn't want them to be that way.

 

[skip0110]

Also there is a difference between uncontrollable AWD oversteer and progressive RWD oversteer.

I can make my car oversteer, understeer, or enter neutral slide. But the problem with AWD is that the behavior is very unpredictable and dependent on corner banking, surface imperfections, etc. This is true for any AWD vehicle because the driver does not know where the power will go when he applies the throttle.

Whereas in a well-sorted RWD car, you can basically dial in the level of oversteer in degree-increments with your right foot. Try that in a MK2 TT.

 

[1X83Z]

I totally agree. If you throw a sheet over it, it totally looks like a Camaro.

God. There was a teal 650i convertible on campus today. The trunk line is so bad - why do they have to accentuate it by making the panel gap between the trunk and the car about four inches wide?

 

[harrytuttle]

Two people agree with this: you, and me.

"Three". It's pronounced "three". The 645i is the sum of parts from at least four discombobulated cars hacked by elderly blind sculptors...at best.

 

[1X83Z]

"Three". It's pronounced "three". The 645i is the sum of parts from at least four discombobulated cars hacked by elderly blind sculptors...at best.

I talk to so many people who claim it's elegant and gorgeous. What could they be thinking?!

 

[Tornado]

I dunno. Its especially odd for me, as I like a rather large number of the Bangle cars (7-series, Z4, 3-Series Coupe, Fiat Coupe), yet I am thoroughly disgusted with the 6-Series (not as much as the 5 series, though). I know tortured lines are his forte, but the 6 seems to have them simply for the sake of having them rather than to pull the attention away from the details towards the overall car, like the 7-Series did.

 

[1X83Z]

You like the 7-series?!

 

[m7ammed]

You like the 7-series?!

why is this strange to you people can like something you don't thats why they keep selling , I personnaly like the whole BMW line up , and I can't wait to see there new desgin direction with the next generation

 

[1X83Z]

I can't wait to see there new desgin direction with the next generation

Finally something we agree on...

 

[Tornado]

You like the 7-series?!

In a dark color, yes. Do I like it more than the previous one? No. But I still like it.

 

[1X83Z]

In a dark color, yes. Do I like it more than the previous one? No. But I still like it.

From some angles the current 7-series is one of the best-looking sedans on Earth. Over Thanksgiving I was returning a video at Blockbuster and I parked two spots down from one. There were no cars in between so I had a great view. This one was black, standard wheelbase, and wore the perfect wheels. It had also just been washed. I was directly next to it, and I stared at it for maybe 30 seconds. It took my breath away.

Unfortunately I had seen hundreds prior to that and have seen hundreds since and have had no similar reaction.

By the way, in my view the E38 ('95-'01) 7-series was the very pinnacle of 4-door sedan design. I don't know if any sedan will ever look better than that vehicle.

"Hello, I rule"

 

[Scaff]

To the average person they might understeer, which is what audi dialled in on purpose, but a skilled driver can coax it to oversteer.

Missed this comment and I need to add that first off all road cars are biased towards initial understeer on the limit, Audi do not have a monopoly on this. However Audi's with longitudinal mounted engines do have a greater habit of understeering, and that's an issue caused by the engine location and something that Audi engineers have worked to minimise.

On the subject of coaxing 4wd Audi's into oversteer this should be on interest...



..., coaxing has nothing to do with it. You need to be quite brutal to invoke oversteer and then its an all or nothing situation (that is until Tiff and Jason are not skilled enough for you). Yes the RS4 may have been the faster around the track, but given my own money I would still go for the M3.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Poverty]

Audi did choose to have longitudinal engines on purpose though, as it stops torque steer (for the VW models and FWD audi's) and its alot easier for them to apply quattro to such a layout.

The RS4 can be coaxed to oversteer, but it depends on the speed you are going, and what tiff was doing above is far more extreme than oversteer, he was trying to drift/powerslide, something quattro was designed to stop from happening.

The whole point of quattro is for the driver to be in total control of the car all the time, and to inspire confidence.

 

[Scaff]

Audi did choose to have longitudinal engines on purpose though, as it stops torque steer (for the VW models and FWD audi's) and its alot easier for them to apply quattro to such a layout.

Slight correction needed here, first off simply using a longitudinal engine layout does not stop torque steer, it reduces it, but alone it does not stop it. That will still depend on the exact placement of the engine and the driveshaft length and material construction, its simply easier to have identical length driveshafts (or as near as damn it) with a longitudinal layout.

Also Audi did not switch to a longitudinal layout to apply the quattro system, they were using it long before they used the quattro system, they retained it as it made things cheaper and simpler to design around.

Audi originally used a longitudinal layout as that was (prior to the Mini) the norm for almost every car. Even after the Mini was launched its taken a long time for transverse engines to be adapted in mid to large saloon cars. The way you try and make it sound is as of Audi almost invented the use of longitudinal engines, rather than retaining what used to be the norm. It started to become an issue as customers demanded more interior space and Audi moved the engine more and more forward.

The RS4 can be coaxed to oversteer, but it depends on the speed you are going, and what tiff was doing above is far more extreme than oversteer, he was trying to drift/powerslide, something quattro was designed to stop from happening.

So Tiff and Jason are wrong then? Glad to know you can speak with more authority on this subject than them, remind me again what qualifies you to do that?

JP - "It doesn't want to oversteer in a nice way does it?"

Tiff - "No, that's all I can do"

JP - "It's either all or none"

Once again you simply sound like a rabid little Audi fan boy; the Audi is quite clearly quicker in a straight line and faster around the course as a whole, but both JP and Tiff quite clear say that as far as controlled oversteer goes the Audi is all or nothing, the quattro making it almost impossible to balance in comparison to the BMW.

The whole point of quattro is for the driver to be in total control of the car all the time, and to inspire confidence.

I don't believe I have disputed that at all!!!!

However you have to acknowledge that it also has its limits (unless once again fan-boy mode strikes again) and for the quattro this is an issue with inducing oversteer when required, particularly on dry tarmac.

Even going back to the original WRC quattro is suffered from this issue, with drivers complaining of massive understeer on tarmac courses (and it these situations the Lancia's and Pug of the day were clearly more at home than the Audi's), I have a number of DVD's with Stig Blomqvist and Walter Rohl discussing this very issue.

Get hold of any of the Duke DVD's on group B and the subject is quite openly discussed, and before you attempt to accuse me of any form of bias here, I was a huge fan of group B rallying (I was 12 when it all started and 16 when it finished so it had quite an impact on me) and at the time it was Audi that I followed with a passion. I am however realistic enough to know the limitations that exist, unfortunately its becoming rather clear the same can't be said of you.

Scaff

 

[Poverty]

So Tiff and Jason are wrong then? Glad to know you can speak with more authority on this subject than them, remind me again what qualifies you to do that?

JP - "It doesn't want to oversteer in a nice way does it?"

Tiff - "No, that's all I can do"

JP - "It's either all or none"

Once again you simply sound like a rabid little Audi fan boy; the Audi is quite clearly quicker in a straight line and faster around the course as a whole, but both JP and Tiff quite clear say that as far as controlled oversteer goes the Audi is all or nothing, the quattro making it almost impossible to balance in comparison to the BMW.

They are on a racetrack, and on a sweeping corner at that. The RS4 can oversteer, and the videos are out there to prove it.

What tiff and JP were doing wasnt oversteering. It was powersliding/drifting/ Absolutely completely different from oversteer.

Audi originally used a longitudinal layout as that was (prior to the Mini) the norm for almost every car. Even after the Mini was launched its taken a long time for transverse engines to be adapted in mid to large saloon cars. The way you try and make it sound is as of Audi almost invented the use of longitudinal engines, rather than retaining what used to be the norm. It started to become an issue as customers demanded more interior space and Audi moved the engine more and more forward.

Im not trying to make it sound like audi did anything. Thats more coming from your own perception.

Audi could have left Longitudinal engines a long time ago, but I already mentioned why they havent, and their next generation of chassies wont be leaving that setup behind either.

 

[Scaff]

They are on a racetrack, and on a sweeping corner at that. The RS4 can oversteer, and the videos are out there to prove it.

So do we now have a special type of oversteer that only counts on race tracks?

What tiff and JP were doing wasnt oversteering. It was powersliding/drifting/ Absolutely completely different from oversteer.

That is 100% priceless, almost signature worthy I have to say.

Oversteer in techincal definition is anytime that the rear tyres are at a greater slip angle than the front tyres, understeer is the exact opposite. Quite simply put powersliding/drifting call it what you want, is simply sustained oversteer.

To try and suggest othrwise is simply bizzare, but you are, so I have a question to ask you.

Poverty can you please explain to me in exact details why powerslides/drift do not involve oversteer?

Im not trying to make it sound like audi did anything. Thats more coming from your own perception.

Audi could have left Longitudinal engines a long time ago, but I already mentioned why they havent, and their next generation of chassies wont be leaving that setup behind either.

I'm quite sure I am not the only one with that perception.


Scaff

 

[YSSMAN]

Poverty can you please explain to me in exact details why powerslides/drift do not involve oversteer?

This thread is classic...

I can answer that question: Drifting in reverse... Boo-Yah!

 

[Poverty]

you can oversteer in a evo but it doesnt mean you are drifting

it also doesnt mean you have your tail out.

 

[Scaff]

you can oversteer in a evo but it doesnt mean you are drifting

it also doesnt mean you have your tail out.

That's not what you said.

Poverty you quite clearly said that drifting/powersliding was "Absolutely completely different from oversteer.", a statement that is so full of it I find it hard to believe.

You said it, now back it up.

Scaff

 

[Poverty]

That's not what you said.

Poverty you quite clearly said that drifting/powersliding was "Absolutely completely different from oversteer.", a statement that is so full of it I find it hard to believe.

You said it, now back it up.

Scaff

You can powerslide in a car that would normally understeer in normal racing/driving conditions.

 

[Scaff]

You can powerslide in a car that would normally understeer in normal racing/driving conditions.

What in the name of all that is holy are you wittering on about now, you have no idea what you are talking about do you.

You can't powerslide/droft a car without oversteer, yet you quite clearly said...

What tiff and JP were doing wasnt oversteering. It was powersliding/drifting/ Absolutely completely different from oversteer.

...and as you seem to know so much about it, I want you to explain exactly how you would induce a car to powerslide/drift without getting oversteer involved.

And please keep in mind that I do know exactly what I am talking about here, I have taught driving dynamics in the motor industry for a range of differing manufacturers.


Scaff


...and stop winking at me, I certainly don't think of you that way.

 

[Duke]

You can powerslide in a car that would normally understeer in normal racing/driving conditions.

...which doesn't magically mean you're not oversteering when you do.

My car oversteers on the brakes and understeers on the throttle. Does that mean that it's NEVER oversteering, because half the time it's understeering?

Your point makes no sense at all.

 

[Famine]

You can powerslide in a car that would normally understeer in normal racing/driving conditions.

That is irrelevant to your earlier statement.

What tiff and JP were doing wasnt oversteering. It was powersliding/drifting/ Absolutely completely different from oversteer.

You've dug yourself to a point now that has you at odds with not just people a lot smarter than you, but with physics and reality too.

"Powersliding" and/or "drifting" IS oversteer in an extreme form.

 

[Poverty]

Whats there not to understand. You can powerslide by getting a car out of shape, that doesnt mean the car can oversteer in normal driving conditions.

Powersliding involves oversteer, but not like how your trying to say it is. There are cars that CANT powerslide, yet oversteer. For some reason you think because the RS4 cant drift its not capable of oversteering, a fact in which you are wrong. Like I said there are VIDEOS of the RS4 oversteering. Go check them out, and you shall soon see where im coming from

The whole point of the argument is that I said the RS4 can be coaxed to oversteer. Scaff disagrees.

My car oversteers on the brakes and understeers on the throttle. Does that mean that it's NEVER oversteering, because half the time it's understeering?

This is infact exactly what im getting at

 

[Scaff]

Whats there not to understand. You can powerslide by getting a car out of shape, that doesnt mean the car can oversteer in normal driving conditions.

Well the fact that you are making little sense at all for a start.

Powersliding involves oversteer, but not like how your trying to say it is.

And what part of my statements were incorrect, I'm still waiting for you to explain this in clear terms.

You are also the one who said that powersliding/drifting were "Absolutely completely different from oversteer.", which is quite frankly rubbish. As a statment it shows no understanding of the basic physics in operation here at all.

There are cars that CANT powerslide, yet oversteer. For some reason you think because the RS4 cant drift its not capable of oversteering, a fact in which you are wrong. Like I said there are VIDEOS of the RS4 oversteering. Go check them out, and you shall soon see where im coming from

I did not say that the RS4 could not drift, nor did I say it could not oversteer, why on earth would I post that video and them say that. Do not try and put words in my mouth. I said (as do Tiff and JP) that the RS4 can't be coaxed into oversteer, it requires rather brutal treatment to get it to oversteer and is almost impossible to balance in a state of oversteer.

I quite clearly said that oversteer was an all or nothing situation for the RS4, which Tiff and JP also say, which is exactly why I used the clip to illustrate the point. Do not try and make out I said anything different.

Scaff