Autocross/Track day talk - tires, cars, setup - Season has started

[Azuremen]

Autocross and Track days

New​

Scroll down to find links to clubs. If you know of a regional club/group that would be relevent, please post it and I'll add it to the list. Next to each listing is the member's name that suggested the club.

Introduction for the thread​

What I am hoping here is to create a resource of information, links, advice, and thoughts on autocross and accessible track days. It does differ from the US to Europe on how these things work, so make sure you clarify your area and regions. Feel free to ask questions, but please do read the bits I update to this post, as I'll try to compile a FAQ of sorts.

A brief intro in autocross, from Wikipedia.

Autocross is a form of motorsports that emphasizes safe, low-cost competition and active participation. An autocross is a timed competition where drivers navigate one at a time through a temporary course marked by traffic cones, rather than racing on a track with multiple other cars, as in road racing or oval racing. Autocross tends to place more emphasis on car handling and driver skill than on sheer horsepower, and events typically have many classes which allow almost any vehicle, from economy sedans to purpose-built vehicles, to compete. Speeds are slower in absolute terms when compared to other forms of motorsports, usually not exceeding highway speeds, but the activity level (measured in discrete turns per minute) can be higher than even Formula One due to the large number of elements packed into each course. Autocross courses are typically 40 to 70 seconds in length. In addition to being a national-level motorsport in its own right, autocrossing is a good way to learn skills that transfer to road racing, as drivers learn vehicle control and club ethics.

Autocross events are usually held in large paved areas like parking lots or airfields. Typically, new courses are created for each event so drivers must learn a new course each time they compete. Prior to driving, a competitor will walk the course, taking mental notes, and developing a strategy to be refined upon subsequent runs. National organizations such as the Sports Car Club of America (SCCA) and National Auto Sport Association (NASA) sponsor autocross events throughout the United States, and many areas have independent autocross clubs. Automobile manufacturers and their associated clubs (e.g. the BMW Car Club of America) sometimes hold marque autocross events.

I myself love autocross. It is a good place to meet other car guys, from the casual guy that just bolts random bits on to the extreme guy that trailers his bone stock car to the event just to reduce miles on the frame to the amusing "import" guy that has stickers and Altezza lights. As with anything, you'll also encounter the mixed bag of friendly people and cold shoulders, but if you ask around, you'll always find a nice veteran to help show you the ropes. And these guys always seem to drive Miatas and are a usually in their 30s or beyond. And they will dominate your times at first, regardless of what you drive

Great place to learn car control at low to moderate speeds, and depending on the regions and venue, you might find yourself hitting 90 MPH. Example being when the club here runs at the local raceway park. Generally the most harm that can come to your car is scuffs on the finish from cones, though if you are way out of control, might have an encounter with a curb. Or worst case, light pole, parked cars, into a ditch or such - but you really have to be over doing it and completely unaware of surroundings. Generally, quite safe for you car and you - just be reasonable and sane.

Don't worry if you don't know a lot about cars either. The tech inspection normally consists of making sure your car is more or less in one piece, and that things don't fall off of it. And people will often let you know if something does need to be repaired soon on the car. Hell, I learned most of my car knowledge after I started autocrossing. Every club will have a basic "what you need" list and information on their site.

Listings​

Clubs/Event info
My Auto Events - Useful for finding events in your area, from Auto-X to cruises. ~nk4e

- West coast - US
Sand and Sage Sports Car Club - Club for the Tri-cities area of Washington state. ~Azuremen
Autosports Northwest - Spokane, Washington area club. ~Azuremen

- B.C., Canada
Victoria Motorsports Club ~Slicks
Vancouver Island Porsche Club ~Slicks
Victoria MG Club Calender ~Slicks
Saratoga Speedway ~Slicks

- East Coast
Miami Valley Sports Car Club ~Keef
Cincinnati SCCA ~Keef

 

[nk4e]

MY auto events

 

[YSSMAN]

A very good idea for a thread!

I'm kicking around the idea of taking the Celica out at least once, maybe twice, to some some on-track driving this summer. Autocross is certainly a consideration, but open track day may be fun as well.

 

[Philly]

I'd love to do something like this with the GTI as well, although I'm a little hesitant about getting involved in stuff that will make VW not want to fix the explodey bits on the car.

 

[Keef]

Cody, I'd stick with the RT-615 in 205/50 on the stock MR-S wheels. Save some money. If you get bumped to SM2 you won't hardly be competitive with those tires though because people I've seen run R-comps. Btw, I ran my 7 inch wide RPF1s in STS, and they didn't say anything...

I also think you should get that size tire for the Civic. And then I think you should take both cars to the same autocross. And then I think you should run them both. And then I think you should sell your MR-S. Not as exciting, but I'm thinking the ol' Hatch will match or better that MR-S's times, and if it doesn't I'm coming up there to help you install a fancy new batch of suspension parts. Also, B20s are sweet.

Don't forget about the new Kumho XS. People have been comparing that tire directly to RE-01Rs, AD07s, and Star Specs. They come in the same 205/50-15 size we hold so dearly, they're sold quick and easy on Tire Rack, and apparently they're better than the RT-615. Not that us amateurs would ever be able to feel the difference, but whatever. They're inexpensive, too. They're what I'm going to replace my Falkens with in the future.

If you end up buying x7 wheels and moving to SM2, go ahead and get your sway bars to quicken the response and slap R-comps on the wheels. Flow parts, too. They're always nice. Get a header that deletes your cat converter, but make it so you can reinstall it for emissions and whatnot. Getting rid of that cat will free up as much flow as the header itself, and it'll also add some really interesting notes to your exhaust. And stink, but real men deal with that.

 

[Slicks]

I've been under the impression that you can go up to 8" wide with the stock diameter in the ST classes and not be bumped, with a maximum with of 275 for any 2-wheel drive car.

As far as tires go, I'd stay with the Azenis. The Kumho XS might be a bit hard to find this year, as I've heard they're starting with a limited run (Canada won't even get them till next season).
Nitto also has a new tire coming out, the NT05. Being Nitto, it may be a little more expensive.


I think I get to laugh at ALL of you, though. I've already run two events this year. I've got two more available in March, and then all hell breaks loose 'till the end of September. I could run upwards of 30 events if I so desire (And given that I did about 24 last year... It's possible).

I'm also having thoughts about rallycross. Part of me wants to have fun doing it, part of me dreads the wear, tear, and damage that will be inflicted.

There shall be no significant mods for me this year... I may be picking up a 3rd set of wheels (16x8) and remounting the Azenis on those (Rather than 6.5"), but they've got plenty of life left to get me through the year. Between the transmission and the ECU within a few weeks of each other, my fun budget for the car is toast for now.

 

[Azuremen]

My car is banned from ST classes. All of them. I have SP, SM, or Stock. Yay for cars that would dominate ST.


I removed the initial tire bit from my first post to clean it up, here it is quoted

Now, for my bit at the moment.

Looking for tires/wheels
At the moment, the season for most of us will soon start, unless you live in a place with some warmth, in which case you may have winter events (jealous). I'm looking at getting tires soon, and my old resource, Edgeracing, has gone out of business it seems. At the moment, my luck in looking around hasn't been great, so I hoping some of you other racing guys out there can point me towards some good sources for tires.

My preference, in the past, has been Falken Azenis, and so far I've found RT-615s for around $100 US. My stock rims, on the Spyder, are 15x6 and 15x6.5, so I can run 205/50/15, but I may just not tell anyone and run a 7" wide wheel, because, well, no one really makes 15x6 wheels that are for sport use. Looking at Falken Hanabis because of the combo of price, weight, and looks. Might also just use the Rotas I have from the Civic (gasp, they could explode, who knows). I also have some 16x7 rims laying around, and managed to find some 205/40/16 RT-615s for about $420 shipped. Though I'd like to stay in a stock class, as the MR-S is banned from STS, leaving me, I think DSP and SM2.

Of course, if I do run the larger wheels, bumping me out of class, header and intake would be on the list, along with at least shocks. Current springs and ride height seem to work well on the rougher surfaces we have around here, and the car rotates just fine, so sway bars aren't really needed currently.

On the tires, I'd like to stick to street tires that I could drive to the event, as the MR-S isn't exactly great for hauling tires, and I don't want to pay for DOT slicks. Or make someone follow me around in the Civic as a support vehicle, despite how ghetto pro that would look. Of course, I could race the Civic, but that would not be nearly as enjoyable as the MR-S, though it probably is a faster car for that stuff.

Anyhow, decided to go with Kumho XS from what I have found. A little bit more than RT-615s (about $50 US) but I can get them in a week and they are the new best thing, from what I am reading. I didn't realize the SCCA had dropped tread wear rates from 200 to 140 for street tires, as the local group here has a PAX class for stock cars on street tires, to keep people from getting mobbed on by people in EF Civic Si hatches with R compounds.

Quick comparison of the tread designs.

Kumho XS

Kumho MX

Falken RT-615

 

[Omnis]

Cool. I love my Kumho KH-16s. I'd imagine my struts would break off before I broke traction while turning in XSs.

 

[nk4e]

Somehow, I am not posting anything about my car until I fix it. But a friend of mine just suggest to go out there and have fun once I get it fixed.

 

[Slicks]

I'm interested to see how the NT-05's do.

The thing is ALL shoulder. Perhaps a very stable tire?

Is the Ecsta XS actually 140 treadwear!? Daaamn...


Edit - Screw you, seriously. $420 for Azenis at your door? Sometimes being in Canuckia sucks.

 

[Azuremen]

The Kumho XS are 180, from what I saw. Just found it crazy they've dropped it to 140.

Yeah, I saw those NT-05s. They look like they are from the future with that tread design.

 

[Slicks]

Has anyone taken advantage of the new treadwear rules? I can't think of any new tires this year other than the above Nitto, which is 200.

 

[Azuremen]

Has anyone taken advantage of the new treadwear rules? I can't think of any new tires this year other than the above Nitto, which is 200.

I haven't heard anything on a new tire at 140, but sure someone will have one out soon.

Also, you should put the link for the clubs in your area up. That way I can get an idea for the dates of events over there and plan a trip west side this summer.

 

[Slicks]

http://www.victoriamotorsports.ca/
Victoria Motorsports... I'm more involved in this club than just running with them. As a general rule, I'm at all of their events.

http://www.virpca.org/autocross.html
Vancouver Island Porsche Club... I've run with them occasionally, although the number of non-Porsches generally outnumbers the ones that do show.

http://www.victoriamgclub.com/events_calendar.htm
Victoria MG Club... Very welcoming and friendly club. I run with them at most of their events.

http://www.saratogaspeedway.bc.ca/schedule.html
Saratoga Speedway... Never been before, as it's a few hours away. A few people I know recently attended one of their winter events, and saw less than a dozen entrants receiving over 10 runs each. Needless to say, I'm going to try and make it up there (preferably while ski season is still on, so I can do both in one weekend).

Edit - There's also a local kart club that apparently keeps one or two karts available as 'loaners' for those wanting to try it out. I might go check that out this year.

 

[Azuremen]

All right. I'll add those to the main post here in a bit.

Quick question

Who can drive in the events?
Anyone with a valid Class 5 BC driver's license (or equivalent) may drive in our events. Drivers holding a novice (Class 7) license are allowed to run but will have their driving more closely monitored. Events are open to both members and non-members, and first-timers are always welcome.

What about those of us interested in running with a US license? I know we've had some people from up north run down here state side, but not sure how it works the other way around.

 

[Slicks]

I'm sure it's fine... But I'll email the prez and confirm.

 

[Keef]

I'm more interested in this:

The tire is old news actually. I did my research and most of the talk I found about it happened in 2008. Autocrossers and racers have been wanting to know why it isn't sold over here yet. It's going to replace the RE-01R (don't confuse it with the RE-011). I emailed Tire Rack a while ago and they said they said they knew about the tire but didn't have an ETA on it yet.

Also:

The Yokohama Advan Neova AD07 will be soon replaced with the AD08. Nice.




EDIT: Tire Rack now has a few sizes and prices listed for the RE-11! Woo! They're expected to be available on March 6! They're expensive, with the 205/50-15 being listed at $124. Not worth it, IMO, so I'll probably be sticking with the XS.

EDIT 2: Miami Valley Sports Car Club (They're testing a new site so it links you to it right away)

Cincinnati SCCA

 

[ND4SPD]

Awesome thread. I'd love to enter the big Interceptor to an autocross event some day. Probably after a 5speed swap and a nice little supercharger. One can dream right?

 

[Keef]

You can do it right now. I'd work on bigger, wider wheels and stickier tires first though. Gripping hard is much more important in autocross than big power. Thus, Miata > Corvette. And Cody's MR-S.

EDIT: Cody, the NT05 is only listed by Discount Tire to come in 17-20 inch sizes.

 

[YSSMAN]

So, I'm thinking about running. I don't know. Depends on if I have money or not.

West Michigan SCCA
http://www.wmr-scca.org/

Apparently they have four Autocross events at MSU this season, and since its only 40 minutes away, at the very least I can go and watch and decide if I'd like to participate later.

Looking at a Wheel/Tire Combo

Fuzion ZRi

Enkei EDR9

I'd be looking at $800 total for summer rubber, ready for the track. Problem is, that nukes my bank account (again), and takes away any possibility of a vacation. As of right now, at least for me, vacation > wheels/tires. That, and I'll need to start considering replacing the Goodyear Eagles on the car already.

We'll see. I make no promises.

 

[Keef]

I'd say there's a difference between getting sporty wheels and tires for summer and getting sporty wheels and tires for autocross or other track events. Obviously if you're not that into hard driving then you don't need to bother with the extra money for better wheels and tires, but if you are you might as well do it all the way so you don't have to do it a second time.

But like you said it's a good idea to go hang out at some autocrosses and talk to drivers and get the feel for it. Ask the experienced guys what sorts of wheels and tires they'd suggest and whatnot. You'll be able to tell the regulars--they all seem to know each other by name.

Anyways, I'd suggest something more summery (and more expensive). The love of my life, the Enkei RPF1. Easy breezy Tire Rack shows it available for your Celica GT in a 16x7 size--and inch taller than stock and probably wider by at least a half inch, judging by your stock 205-width tires which are usually fitted to 6-6.5 inch wide rims from the factory. And despite being much bigger the RPF1s are lighter than the EDR9s you posted, which in turn are probably a tad lighter than stock. They chop 3 pounds off the EDR9, weighing 13.7 pounds. Weight is the enemy. Federal Reserve notes (not money) is also, because they're $220 a piece. Ouch. And they're silver. Apparently you want black. That can be handled.

The 16x7 size allows for some nifty tire size combos too. The standard tire size for that size wheel for your car would be a 205/50-16, as opposed to the 205-55-15. Notice the 16 inch tire has a lower aspect ratio--50%--as opposed to the 15 incher's 55%. That keeps the overall diameter of the tire as close to stock as possible. But that size's diameter is still taller than stock, and I'm not down with that, so I'd suggest the 205/45-16. That's about a half inch smaller diameter than stock. So, not only have you cut the weight of the wheel, you've minimized the weight gain of the tires and have also lowered the effect final drive ratio by lowering the overall diameter of the wheel/tire combo. That all nets you better suspension operation and a smoother ride (within the tire's dynamics at least), better braking ability (within the tires limits), and better acceleration. Minute, but it'll be there.

So, the from Tire Rack's listings I recommend:



The look is kind of gimmicky, but they really are excellent for their performance class, which is Ultra High Performance Summer. I've had personal experience with them on a friend's Nissan, and they work quite well as summer gripmeisters, they do good in rain, they'll good enough for non-competitive autocross duty, and they'll last plenty long, because you seem like you're more interested in buying new jeans every spring instead of new tires. Plus they're only $88 a piece. That's a fantastic price. As a matter of fact that's the same price as the Fuzion ZRi in the same size...



Tire Rack actually has a test with both of these tires in it. They're very comparable. The BFG barely edges it out in all dry tests, but the ZRi fights back in all wet tests. In the scheme of things they both are great in everything, so I suggest choosing based on brand name or coolness. That's what it comes down to when two tires are pretty much equal, haha.

So that's the opinion of a guy who may be more willing to spend on his car than you, Brad, which isn't necessarily a good thing.

 

[YSSMAN]

So that's the opinion of a guy who may be more willing to spend on his car than you, Brad, which isn't necessarily a good thing.

I was looking at the BFGs as well, so we were otherwise on the same wavelength. Good thoughts on the wheels though, and I will consider it. The 16" might be nice for a change, filling up the wheel wells a bit more. However, the wheel choice was somewhat arbitrary... They were the only ones they offered that looked remotely "good," and seemed to have a somewhat reasonable price tag. Either way, I've got a bunch of bills to pay off first, and then I'm probably going to start dumping more money into the car.

A friend of mine runs his Escort ZX2 at autocross events around the mid-west, and he wants me to start taking my Celica out to do them. My main goal would be to beat him, and seeing as how he has otherwise destroyed his car twice at these events, it wouldn't seem like it would be too hard. Of course, that may be a gross over-exaggeration of my own skills, as Cody would surely point out how much of a n00b I (presumably) am.

 

[Keef]

If your goal is to compete with him you should see what class he runs in, and of course whether he's actually trying to run in that class or if he doesn't even care. The SCCA has regulations on what sorts of mods you can do in certain classes. If your only goal is to run with him in his class then you could do whatever that class allows and still run with him. May or may not mean you're running with everyone else, but that doesn't matter when you've got a buddy to run against. Autocross is always more fun with friends, and it makes it easier to get to know other regulars as well.

 

[JCE]

Since we are reviving the autocross interest I have a question.

I have decided to just return my Camaro's drivetrain to the 305 and keep the 700R4 automatic. This will allow me to finish my project with the least amount of money spent. Thus allowing me more free money to spend on another project...and that project is building a car that turns corners, is a blast to drive and makes a good noise.

My choices so far are:
'97-01 R170 Merc SLK w/manual transmission
'87-93 Foxbody 5.0 Mustang convertable or coupe
'82-92 Fbody V8/V6 turbo convertable or coupe
'85+ MR2
'02-03 C-class saloon
'91-94 3000GT VR4
E30, E36 or E46 BMW 3-series
Audi TT
Audi A4 (V6 quattro only)
'95-99 Nissan Maxima SE manual transmission
E36 BMW Z3
FB, FC or FD RX-7 with a SBC/SBF swap

Those are on my short list. I'm slightly leaning towards the Mercs, BMWs or the Audis. My goal is to basically strip it out, cage it, get at least enough power to not overwhelm the wheels (aka wheelspin) and something that is still street legal. I want to do something out of the ordinary...in other words strip out a Merc!

 

[Slicks]

Cody:

As long as you aren't posessing a restricted license (learners, etc), you'll be just fine.

JCE:
I wouldn't bother with an FBody, Fox, C-Class, 3KGT, TT, A4, or Maxima.
I would recommend the SLK (especially the 320, with a manual), MR2, 3 Series (E30 or E36) or the RX-7. Miata, of course, as well.

 

[niky]

A mid-80's 190E?

RE: Interceptor: suspension first, then tires. Nice tires on stock suspension = wobbly handling. Nice suspension on stock tires = four wheel drifts and a good chance to learn the ropes.

I did it the other way around, and boy, did the car feel like crap on track. It was faster and grippier, but felt so much less settled.

 

[McLaren]

MY auto events

Wow, there is not one event listed there going on in Texas.

 

[nk4e]

I wish there was some events in the Central Cali.

 

[Keef]

A mid-80's 190E?

RE: Interceptor: suspension first, then tires. Nice tires on stock suspension = wobbly handling. Nice suspension on stock tires = four wheel drifts and a good chance to learn the ropes.

I did it the other way around, and boy, did the car feel like crap on track. It was faster and grippier, but felt so much less settled.

I disagree completely. Yes, the car won't be nearly as exciting, but all that money you put into a suspension setup still is forced to work within the limits of the lame, stock all-season tires. The Falkens I got right away completely blew my other tires out of the water, it was astonishing how much grip my car had. This newfound grip really highlighted what is wrong with my suspension. It doesn't need to be stiffer, really, I just need to up my roll stiffness greatly, and work on the understeer/oversteer balance.

All the American-authored autocross books I've ever read have recommended to start with tires first, and then upgrade everything else accordingly. You'll find you don't actually have to spend a grand or two on good coilovers--a few hundred dollars on beefy sway bars and chassis stiffening braces will actually get the job done. Tires lead to sway bars to adjust roll stiffness and balance, and once you have that you're left with squat and dive issues, which can be addressed with custom spring rates of your choice.

Of course, tuning is done differently just about everywhere. In Japan tuners rarely use sway bars at all. Just about all coilovers made in Japan for our Hondas have ludicrous spring rates available, than make the car ride like a rock and eliminate the need for sway bars. I don't like that theory, because here in the states not even our autocross parking lots are smooth half the time, much less the roads. Sway bars impact ride harshness very little, so you can have very high roll stiffness without hardly sacrificing daily driveability.

 

[niky]

I suppose it does make more sense to figure out what grip level you're buying suspension for before buying the suspension bits.

Yeah, spring rates on Japanese set-ups are insane... we spent a a day tuning a Mazda on Teins and even on the softest settings it felt like riding a buckboard on rollerskates.

I prefer my tuning done with swaybars, too, but local availability is poor.