Autocross/Track day talk - tires, cars, setup - Season has started

[nk4e]

What are the Grip levels?

 

[Keef]

I suppose it does make more sense to figure out what grip level you're buying suspension for before buying the suspension bits.

Yeah, spring rates on Japanese set-ups are insane... we spent a a day tuning a Mazda on Teins and even on the softest settings it felt like riding a buckboard on rollerskates.

I prefer my tuning done with swaybars, too, but local availability is poor.

I can't stand the Japanese setups. They're "cool" and whatnot, but they just don't have quality and the right rates to satisfy me. Many guys that race in the Honda Challenge end up going with Gound Control coilover sleeves with Eibach springs. It's easy to order custom rates and swap them out. They usually pair those with some sort of European dampers, from Ohlins, Bilstein, and especially Koni, among others.

But it's more expensive that way.

Tons of companies offer sway bars for our cars too. Some people use the Civic Type R's 22mm rear, or the Integra's 23mm, and ASR even offers a 24mm monster. Great for autocross.

 

[Azuremen]

Cody:

As long as you aren't posessing a restricted license (learners, etc), you'll be just fine.

JCE:
I wouldn't bother with an FBody, Fox, C-Class, 3KGT, TT, A4, or Maxima.
I would recommend the SLK (especially the 320, with a manual), MR2, 3 Series (E30 or E36) or the RX-7. Miata, of course, as well.

I'd bother with the Foxbody, just because the aftermarket on them is huge. But otherwise, MR2, Miata, RX-7 or older 3 series.

And good to know on that license stuff. Hopefully you'll be seeing me over there this summer.

 

[JCE]

Agreed. The Foxbody (and Fbody) make pretty decent Autocrossers--Foxbodies being the best of the two. I really really want an SLK or Z3. Those are tops on my list.

 

[Slicks]

And good to know on that license stuff. Hopefully you'll be seeing me over there this summer.

Cool, man.
Be good to finally meet a member of GTP.

 

[Duke]

Niky and Keef are both right. I would not make the jump to R-compound rubber on stock suspension... but I'd go to maximum performance street tires before I'd do anything involving wrenches. So it's a 3-step program, really.

I'm eager for the season to start. Our local club was going to have a great facility right close to home, but that fell through thanks to the lousy economy. They do have a new venue about 45 minutes' drive away that should be better than the current place, which is very tight, even if it is close to home. I'm hoping to run 4 or 5 events this summer.

I may even try a TSD rally if I can convince my wife to navigate for me.

 

[Azuremen]

Just ordered the tires. Kumho Ecsta XS. They better be as good as I've been reading. And it needs to warm up, temperatures dropped back down below freezing. Need to get these mounted so I can break them in a bit and get a feel for them.

 

[Slicks]

Niky and Keef are both right. I would not make the jump to R-compound rubber on stock suspension... but I'd go to maximum performance street tires before I'd do anything involving wrenches. So it's a 3-step program, really.

I think it can depend on the car, as well.


The only thing I've done to my suspension is an agressive alignment and a sway bar in the back of the car to help reduce understeer - I am on Azenis, though, and not R-Comps.

Is the suspension great? Well, good enough. I've gotten used to driving the car as it is, and I'm usually competitive in ST.

Will better suspension make me faster? Of course. But I know it'll be at least a year until I can think about suspension bits (Most likely coilovers, as they're only 1/3 higher price than good shocks and springs for my car), so I do what I can with what I've got.

 

[Azuremen]

In all honesty, I think the single biggest improvement in handling that can be made to a car is just adding a rear sway bar. Unless its an MR car, in which case it rotates enough on its own.

 

[niky]

My beef with sticky tires... and Azenis RT615s are plenty sticky enough... is that when you're doing left-right transitions, they'll often overwhelm the stock suspension. That transition point where you can't add any more input before the car settles down isn't nice. I ran AD07s on an admittedly worn stock suspension, and it was just crap in the chicanes... I had to take a more conservative line whereas with stock tires (lower performance Advan A460s... akin to "regular" summer performance tires) I could just "lean" on the car, instead.

I suppose, though, if you're starting with something like a Type-arrrh or an S2000, R-comps would work without any other change.

 

[Ghost_drift]

I cant rele coment as I dont know what rules your AutoCross run. I do Time Attack with my RX7, and I run RAY's VR-G2's with Toyo R888. for the actual Time attacks.

And RAY's RE30's with Toyo T1R's for normal road driving and showing off.

I started running this new setup recently, and the grip is crazy. But like I said in the UK the rules are alot different.

 

[JCE]

Anybody know if a 1st gen Z3 would be as good as a 3-series?

This post is to determine the best result for the $$$ of the following cars:

• Audi TT 1.8L Turbo I4
• BMW Z3 2.8L N/A I6
• Merc SLK 3.2L N/A V6

The Audi TT isn't as affordable as the Z3 but has a more desirable AWD drivetrain. Prices range from $8,900 for a 2000 model to $15,000 for a 2001 with the 6spd (225bhp) But there is turbo lag with these Audi 1.8T engines--so bad that I actually do not like driving them. But that is something a turbo timer and or turbo upgrade will solve. The mileage range on these are from 70,000 miles to 120,000 miles. The power output for the model I am interested in is 225bhp 207tq and with a weight of around 3100lbs it could scoot around the track.

The BMW Z3 has a very reasonable starting price pre-owned--that being $7,500 to $12,900 with mileage ranging from 78,000 miles to 135,000 miles on 1997 through 2000 models. Power is 190bhp and 206tq which is pretty decent numbers for a car weighing around 3,300lbs.

The Merc SLK is the dark horse here because of the rarity of the manual transmission mated to the 320 V6 model. Prices range from a healthy $10,000 to a rather unhealthy $16,000. The mileage on these however is quite a bit lower than the other two ranging from 45,000 miles to 78,000 miles. Power output is rather good for this car at 215bhp and 229tq. And since the car weighs in at around 3000lbs it could be quite a nippy car.

My opinion without driving any of these SPECIFIC models is this... The SLK has the power to weight ratio advantage while the Audi TT has the power to DOLLAR ratio. The Z3 is the odd man out but definately wins points with me almost solely based upon the I6 engine noise. Most definately the opinion might change based upon the driving experience. Also the amount of equipment from the interior I'm removing which of these cars has the heaviest luxury interior trim?

Thoughts?

 

[Slicks]

I'd discount the TT. I think it'd be understeer-y, whether you get an AWD or not.

The Z3 is heavier and less powerful than the SLK. There's an SLK320 that often runs in my club, and it is often competitive with the top 1/4 of the grid - As fast as the Miatas.

 

[Perfect Balance]

In Japan tuners rarely use sway bars at all. Just about all coilovers made in Japan for our Hondas have ludicrous spring rates available, than make the car ride like a rock and eliminate the need for sway bars.

You know this how?

I've got 10k springs in front and 7k springs in the rear and my car still rolls quite a considerable amount.

Have you ever considered that you are thinking about "upgrading" your car to a CTR sway bar, which is 9mm thicker than your stock unit, and that's still stock in Japan?

So basically Japanese tuners don't tune with sway bars, but if you put those stock pieces on your car, then you have?

I can't stand the Japanese setups. They're "cool" and whatnot, but they just don't have quality and the right rates to satisfy me.

Don't have the quality?

For some people that's the big draw of Japanese parts. I don't like Japanese parts because they are "JDM," I like them because of the quality and attention to detail they have in their products.

Many guys that race in the Honda Challenge end up going with Gound Control coilover sleeves with Eibach springs.

It's the best "bang for the buck", that's why.

It's easy to order custom rates and swap them out.

Which also requires sending off the dampers to get revalved.

They usually pair those with some sort of European dampers, from Ohlins, Bilstein, and especially Koni, among others.

I've only seen Ground Controls used with Koni dampers. Have any examples of Bilstein, or even better, Ohlins paired with GC?

But it's more expensive that way.

Only when compared to a cheap entry level coilover like mine, and retail on that was still $1,180. A nice coilover setup for a Civic is easily $2,000+. Take Zeal for example.


You make me want to punch kittens.

 

[Ghost_drift]

Japanese tuners not using sway bars/anti roll bars???? what japanese tuners are these then.

Do you mean "RICER" tuners?

Coilovers make the car handle nicely, but without stifening the bottom of the car with anti roll bars they dont realy have the desired affect. PLUS. the price of a set of anti roll bars like these from driftworks http://www.driftworks.com/catalog/products/whiteline-front-anti-roll-bar.html. is nothing.

No point in paying out £1k for a set of coilovers if the the standerd sway bars on your car will bend in a light wind.

 

[Perfect Balance]

Japanese tuners not using sway bars/anti roll bars???? what japanese tuners are these then.

Do you mean "RICER" tuners?

Coilovers make the car handle nicely, but without stifening the bottom of the car with anti roll bars they dont realy have the desired affect. PLUS. the price of a set of anti roll bars like these from driftworks http://www.driftworks.com/catalog/products/whiteline-front-anti-roll-bar.html. is nothing.

No point in paying out £1k for a set of coilovers if the the standerd sway bars on your car will bend in a light wind.

Whiteline is Australian.

Doesn't say much for Japanese tuners does it?


Fail.

 

[JCE]

I'd discount the TT. I think it'd be understeer-y, whether you get an AWD or not.

The Z3 is heavier and less powerful than the SLK. There's an SLK320 that often runs in my club, and it is often competitive with the top 1/4 of the grid - As fast as the Miatas.

Can you adjust the diff to be more rear dominant? Or could you somehow reprogram the ecu? The quattro in the TT is 60% front 40% rear isn't it? I love the look of the TT and having AWD is definately better than FWD. But its not cheap and I'm just not a fan of the 1.8T engine.

You don't have any images or video of this SLK do you? And or do you know if he/she removed the top/interior? The Z3 is by far the cheapest--and you can easily upgrade the engine to produce decent enough power for a track. My concern is of the three which would be the cheapest to squeeze out 50-100bhp out of the stock engine while not over-extending the engine/transmission/diff. Or are these already pretty tuned close to what the stock block+internals can handle? I'm pretty sold on the SLK as its my #1 choice right now--and the fact that it is less than 3,000lbs WITH the heavy top and interior trim imagine how light it would be once I remove that stuff then cage it (with frame strengthening+rollbar of course). My problem with it is the initial cost and the VERY limited availability of the V6 with a manual. Nearly impossible actually. I would consider the 230 Kompressor if it had the ability to be upgraded to 250bhp+ without costing me a large amount of $$$. I would like the supercharger whine since its a screw type--but how would the exhaust sound on a Merc I4? Never heard one--especially since the supercharger covers up the exhaust noise.

====================================

I have another nominee...this one is a bit dodgy due to the initial cost for one that works with no issues or one that is affordable but may have mechanical issues.

1997-2002 Porsche Boxster. The price range for one of these starts at $9,900 for a 1997 model and goes to $16,900 for a 2002 S model. Power for the 2.7L F6 is 217bhp and 192tq. Plus the car weighs in at a lightweight 2700lbs. And being mid-engined means great handling. The Boxster S has 250bhp and 225tq for the early models. Mileage on pre-owned ones run from 48,000 miles to 103,000 miles. I'm unsure on the reliability of these cars--but I'd imagine they should be reletively good since its German.

Thoughts?

 

[nobuffalo]

Whiteline is Australian.

Doesn't say much for Japanese tuners does it?


Fail.

Please, stop saying fail. It just makes you sound arrogant.

 

[Perfect Balance]

EDIT: never mind

 

[Keef]

You know this how?

Sport Compact Car article from July 2007 called "Endless... Traffic" about a 350Z from a street-legal race series.

EDIT: I'll concede that it's typical to use stock sway bars, but not upgrade them. Here's the important text:

"Chassis work is likewise a bolt-on affair, centered on a set of Endless/Zeal Super Function Taikyu Spec coilovers with X-coil springs...In typical Japanese suspension tuning fashion, the stock anti-roll bars are retained, since most suspension roll rate comes from the super-stiff, 18kg/mm (1000lb/in) front and 16kg/mm (890lb/in) rear springs. This is something we never get away with on our pot-holed Baghdad-esque roads."​

Have you ever considered that you are thinking about "upgrading" your car to a CTR sway bar, which is 9mm thicker than your stock unit, and that's still stock in Japan?

That car was designed by a manufacturer, not an aftermarket tuner. They've got different ways of doing things.

Don't have the quality?

I'm referring to damper tuning, which I got from this article, basically saying that the European damper companies are the only ones who make a quality product with "correct" damping curves, which I'll suggest would be similar to stock manufacturer's tuning, just harder.

Which also requires sending off the dampers to get revalved.

I've only seen Ground Controls used with Koni dampers. Have any examples of Bilstein, or even better, Ohlins paired with GC?

That's a big draw to the Konis specifically, the fact that they can easily be revalved with truly custom settings. Out of the box they're already some of the highest quality dampers on the market. And yes, Ground Control offers sleeves to fit Ohlins, Bilstein, Penske, and a few other brands.

...$2,000+. Take Zeal for example.

Apparently you'd be paying too much for a part designed to work on a smooth-as-glass Japanese mountain road or race track. We don't have that here in the states.

 

[Perfect Balance]

Sport Compact Car article from July 2007 called "Endless... Traffic" about a 350Z from a street-legal race series.

EDIT: I'll concede that it's typical to use stock sway bars, but not upgrade them. Here's the important text:

Provided the road is smooth enough, it makes far more sense to simply run a stiffer suspension instead of thicker sway bars. You get a lot more feedback, response, and control from a stiffer suspension than a soft one. That doesn't mean they "don't" tune with sway bars to control the roll of the car, they've just used a more effective way.

That car was designed by a manufacturer, not an aftermarket tuner. They've got different ways of doing things.

That doesn't tell me much at all.

I'm referring to damper tuning, which I got from this article, basically saying that the European damper companies are the only ones who make a quality product with "correct" damping curves, which I'll suggest would be similar to stock manufacturer's tuning, just harder.

I'd like to actually see some of the shock dynos on these "crappy" dampers he talks about. Or at least a list of the ones he's tested.

I've seen more than a few shock dynos which don't really qualify for any of the "crappy shock criteria" that he listed on his site, but according to him, everything except for the 6 he had listed were crap?

Sorry, but results speak for themselves, I'm not going to take one mans word over years and years of R&D and experience.

That's a big draw to the Konis specifically, the fact that they can easily be revalved with truly custom settings. Out of the box they're already some of the highest quality dampers on the market. And yes, Ground Control offers sleeves to fit Ohlins, Bilstein, Penske, and a few other brands.

They might offer the sleeves to fit them, but I don't recall seeing anyone actually use them, especially not on Hondas.

Apparently you'd be paying too much for a part designed to work on a smooth-as-glass Japanese mountain road or race track. We don't have that here in the states.

That's only true if the road is so bumpy that the car can't effectively keep all 4 tires on the gound.

Really though, 2k is not a lot to spend on a race car suspension.

 

[Ghost_drift]

Whiteline is Australian.

Doesn't say much for Japanese tuners does it?


Fail.

Thats is just One example. If you want I could post a hundred Japanese made sway bars.

 

[nk4e]

Thats is just One example. If you want I could post a hundred Japanese made sway bars.

Well, why didn't do that in the first place?

 

[Ghost_drift]

Well, why didn't do that in the first place?

Because it doesnt matter where the parts come from does it. Take JUN for instance, on their Hyper lemon 3 that kicked the Americans asses at Bonnoville.

It was running zeel coilovers
Cusco LSD
Trust Turbo
Trust wastegate
Cuscu Triple plate clutch
Trust boost controler
Trust Intercooler.

As you can see they dont just make their cars from JUN only parts.

And the point I was trying to make was, Sway bars are a very cheap way of getting your car to ride nice and stiff. Coilovers alone arnt going to make your car run as nice as Coilovers and uprated Sway bars. So why would you leave out an item that costs pennies considering other tuning parts.

And the amount of money spent on some of the Japanese Time Attack cars are stupid. I dont think a japanese tuner would leave out some stiffer swaybars, to save a few thousand yen. They probably spent that much on the air freshener.

And here is JUN's new TIME ATTACK car, runs 54s at Tsukuba. And guess what.........it has Cusco sway bars.

 

[Slicks]

Can you adjust the diff to be more rear dominant? Or could you somehow reprogram the ecu? The quattro in the TT is 60% front 40% rear isn't it? I love the look of the TT and having AWD is definately better than FWD. But its not cheap and I'm just not a fan of the 1.8T engine.

You don't have any images or video of this SLK do you? And or do you know if he/she removed the top/interior? The Z3 is by far the cheapest--and you can easily upgrade the engine to produce decent enough power for a track. My concern is of the three which would be the cheapest to squeeze out 50-100bhp out of the stock engine while not over-extending the engine/transmission/diff. Or are these already pretty tuned close to what the stock block+internals can handle? I'm pretty sold on the SLK as its my #1 choice right now--and the fact that it is less than 3,000lbs WITH the heavy top and interior trim imagine how light it would be once I remove that stuff then cage it (with frame strengthening+rollbar of course). My problem with it is the initial cost and the VERY limited availability of the V6 with a manual. Nearly impossible actually. I would consider the 230 Kompressor if it had the ability to be upgraded to 250bhp+ without costing me a large amount of $$$. I would like the supercharger whine since its a screw type--but how would the exhaust sound on a Merc I4? Never heard one--especially since the supercharger covers up the exhaust noise.

I don't know much about either car.

The Audi, I believe, has got Haldex differentials. I doubt you can easily change the torque split f/r - You'd have to do your own research.

The only things I know about this particular SLK are that it's got a couple sets of rubber (Summer tires, & R-Comps), and some Koni single-adjustable shocks. The interior and top are as-stock.

A Kompressor may be a decent way to go. I'm sure you can up the boost fairly cost-effectively.

I would like to add, however, that outright power isn't always advantageous in autocross - Especially with 2wd cars. To a new racer, even a stock car like the ones you're considering could be a handful.

 

[Ghost_drift]

Just out of interest, are you restricted on your car choices. Does it have to be European car? As the price of some of those car. you could pick up a decent EVO VI and have change for Tyres wheels and what ever else you need.

 

[nk4e]

I think that you did over did the explanation about using other companies parts. But if we used another part as an example instead of sway bars, like an Exhaust System. Magna Flow, for example. So will an American company give the same experience as a Japanese company ?
(Magna Flow)

Vs
(Greddy)

Just out of interest, are you restricted on your car choices. Does it have to be European car? As the price of some of those car. you could pick up a decent EVO VI and have change for Tyres wheels and what ever else you need.

Most likely, Americans are restricted because some models of various companies did not reach the States.

 

[Ghost_drift]

Most likely, Americans are restricted because some models of various companies did not reach the States.

But what are the actual restrictions is it on Engine CC. Car type?

I have a nightmare in England on the Time Attacks, as no one has quite decided what CC the RX7 is. 1.3 or 3.9 lol stupid I know.

Most events let me run in the 2ltr catagory with stuff like Evo's and Impreza's.
But other events I would love to enter I cant as the RX7 doesnt fall into any of the catagorys.

But their has to be a damn site better cars, for alot less than a SLK Kompressor.

 

[nk4e]

We( United States) did get the Evolution no later than Evo7, I believe. Car models, I ment. I don't know about engine changes alot being compared to their counterparts.

 

[Ghost_drift]

We( United States) did get the Evolution no later than Evo7, I believe. Car models, I ment. I don't know about engine changes alot being compared to their counterparts.

Ouch!!!!

You dont even have the new Focus ST do you? If I am right in thinking you still have the ST 170?

I mean in the uk a 1 miniut search will fined you this site. their is a Celica GT4 on page 3 for £4K or an EVO V on page 4 for £3K

http://www.a1centre.co.uk/14157/stock.htm

But didnt realise how hard it is for you to get these sort of cars.