Autocross/Track day talk - tires, cars, setup - Season has started

[nk4e]

I don't think so either.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Wasn't it the EVO IX?

edit: Actually the VIII was the first one to be sold in the US.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

Yeah, we've only had Evos as recently as the VIII, and they're still not cheap.

FD Rexies are impossible to find cheaply as well.

 

[YSSMAN]

You dont even have the new Focus ST do you? If I am right in thinking you still have the ST 170?

We're still running the MKI chassis after all these years, and while they're planning on bringing over the MKII (or MKIII?) Focus soon, it won't be for another couple of years.

The ST170 you're talking about was called the SVT Focus, which was otherwise an amazing car. They can be had for relatively cheap these days, give or take about $7-10K depending on condition, year, etc. Although the ZX3 is usually the most-popular, I'd personally try to find a ZX5 version. Not just for practicality, but also, because its a bit more rare, and I believe cheaper as well.

Thing is though, you can find the Mazda-powered 2005-2007 ST models for a pretty good price as well. I'd care to argue that the "generation" style of that MKI was probably the best-looking we got in the US, and with the rather-lovely 2.3L MZR out front... You can't go wrong. Its only fractionally slower than the SVT, but for the same price, I'd be hard pressed to ignore it.

Thought:

If you're looking for a stocker that might be fun to play around with, the well-engineered, but poorly branded Saturn Ion Redline Coupe can be had for right around $10K now.

Considering what the car could do out of the box, its not a bad place to start. You'd just have to deal with driving a car with plastic panels. Oh, and the Ion badge. *shudder*

 

[Ghost_drift]

Wow that focus SES is one ugly car.

We have this thing.

And then obviously we are also getting the RS model, witch I dont know if you will get ether.

But back to topic.

 

[Azuremen]

I really don't want this to be a "what the US did and didn't get" thread. Or a discussion on Japanese versus US roads.

Keep the discussion to autocross/track day stuff, and related content such as relevant setups.

Now, overly stiffening the suspension is a huge problem for autocross and road events if the surfaces aren't smooth. My old MR2 on the Eibach Ground Control setup would have issues over the rougher surfaces here, where I could easily tell a tire was not making contact due to suspension travel issues.

 

[Keef]

I think I've read that some people have issues with droop travel when using GC sleeves. The shocks droop plenty, but the springs aren't long enough and come unseated when the wheel drops. They ended up having to use helper springs to keep the main spring seated.

I don't know if that's common or not. All I know is that I don't want my rear wheels flinging up into the air whenever I take a hard corner. I don't really know how some people end up with plenty of droop and others have almost none at all. Those people buying shortened shocks or something?

 

[Rotary Junkie]

Those people buying shortened shocks or something?

Could it just be a gigantic rear sway bar causing it to some extent? If the outside is loaded hard and the sway bar doesn't want to flex (IE is stiff enough to hold the spring up), the inside isn't going to have much travel.

 

[JCE]

I don't know much about either car.

The Audi, I believe, has got Haldex differentials. I doubt you can easily change the torque split f/r - You'd have to do your own research.

The only things I know about this particular SLK are that it's got a couple sets of rubber (Summer tires, & R-Comps), and some Koni single-adjustable shocks. The interior and top are as-stock.

A Kompressor may be a decent way to go. I'm sure you can up the boost fairly cost-effectively.

I would like to add, however, that outright power isn't always advantageous in autocross - Especially with 2wd cars. To a new racer, even a stock car like the ones you're considering could be a handful.

I have acceptional car control, and when I was 18 I took car control lessons. Maybe I should check out an SLK forum so I can see what potential the 2.3L Kompressor has locked away. (anybody got a link?)

Just out of interest, are you restricted on your car choices. Does it have to be European car? As the price of some of those car. you could pick up a decent EVO VI and have change for Tyres wheels and what ever else you need.

Never had an EVO below 8 over here in the colonies. And importing one will cost me more than I want to spend.

We're still running the MKI chassis after all these years, and while they're planning on bringing over the MKII (or MKIII?) Focus soon, it won't be for another couple of years.

The ST170 you're talking about was called the SVT Focus, which was otherwise an amazing car. They can be had for relatively cheap these days, give or take about $7-10K depending on condition, year, etc. Although the ZX3 is usually the most-popular, I'd personally try to find a ZX5 version. Not just for practicality, but also, because its a bit more rare, and I believe cheaper as well.

Thing is though, you can find the Mazda-powered 2005-2007 ST models for a pretty good price as well. I'd care to argue that the "generation" style of that MKI was probably the best-looking we got in the US, and with the rather-lovely 2.3L MZR out front... You can't go wrong. Its only fractionally slower than the SVT, but for the same price, I'd be hard pressed to ignore it.

Thought:

If you're looking for a stocker that might be fun to play around with, the well-engineered, but poorly branded Saturn Ion Redline Coupe can be had for right around $10K now.

Considering what the car could do out of the box, its not a bad place to start. You'd just have to deal with driving a car with plastic panels. Oh, and the Ion badge. *shudder*

Not going to own another Focus unless its a MkII or MkIII. I know the SVtT Focus is a good car, I just don't want a 3rd MkI Focus. And no thanks on the Ion.

I really don't want this to be a "what the US did and didn't get" thread. Or a discussion on Japanese versus US roads.

Keep the discussion to autocross/track day stuff, and related content such as relevant setups.

Now, overly stiffening the suspension is a huge problem for autocross and road events if the surfaces aren't smooth. My old MR2 on the Eibach Ground Control setup would have issues over the rougher surfaces here, where I could easily tell a tire was not making contact due to suspension travel issues.

How is the gen 3 MR2 in terms of autocrossing?

 

[Keef]

Could it just be a gigantic rear sway bar causing it to some extent? If the outside is loaded hard and the sway bar doesn't want to flex (IE is stiff enough to hold the spring up), the inside isn't going to have much travel.

It might be. ASR's 24mm bar is popular for autox Civics, and that's almost twice the size of the stock bar. It's strong enough to rip the mounts right out of the chassis. Thus, rear subframe brace:

That's a 22mm bar, btw, not the 24.

 

[niky]

The SLK sounds nice... I wouldn't go for an AWD TT for Autocross, not unless you're stripping everything out of it... a FWD TT 1.8 might be good, if it were the same weight as the Golf version... otherwise, no.

RE: tuning: maybe no swaybars is an exaggeration, but apart from Mazda, with the Miata and the RX8 (and let's not forget, Mazda has had some influence from Ford's European arm), many performance cars I've driven (and even non-performance) from out of Japan ride like buckboards. It's only lately with the stupid move to runflats, that Europeans have started to approach the ride-stiffness of Japanese cars.

 

[JCE]

I don't really dig the idea of FWD but I am still open to getting another '97-01 Prelude. But I'd rather have a German car. Just want one.

 

[nk4e]

So far, from a short term plan:
Godspeed Coilovers ( I will find reviews)

 

[Azuremen]

I have acceptional car control, and when I was 18 I took car control lessons. Maybe I should check out an SLK forum so I can see what potential the 2.3L Kompressor has locked away. (anybody got a

How is the gen 3 MR2 in terms of autocrossing?

I drove one of those C230 Kompressor coupes long ago, the engine was kind of, erm, blah. Likely a result of the weight of the car. Was quick, just had no real life to it.

The MR-S is a superb autocross car. It is a C stock car, so the same as the '99 Miata, and is banned from ST level events just like the '99 up Miatas. I know I guy around here took 1st place in points two seasons in a row with one, in stock classing, before upgrading to an Elise. The ideal model years are either a 2000 (lowest weight) or a 2004 with LSD as the 2004 also has larger rear wheels (16x7 vs 15x6.5). However, note that pre 2003 models have some issue with the precat, so gutting the cats will save the motor.

I love my MR-S, much easier to autocross than my old AW11. The motor and gearing are almost perfectly suited, with a nice torque band from 2000 RPM up in 2nd gear. The longer wheel base and more developed suspension makes it capable and composed on parking lot surfaces. The steering is a bit light though, but you still get a enough info with proper tires on.

It might be. ASR's 24mm bar is popular for autox Civics, and that's almost twice the size of the stock bar. It's strong enough to rip the mounts right out of the chassis. Thus, rear subframe brace:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a29/treblarefils/S5301030.jpg

That's a 22mm bar, btw, not the 24.

Which reminds me I need to order that thing soon for the Civic.

I don't really dig the idea of FWD but I am still open to getting another '97-01 Prelude. But I'd rather have a German car. Just want one.

The cars that dominate as FWD are older Civics. I know the SRT-4 and older Neon's also do pretty well. I know some of the fastest cars I've seen have been older late 80's early 90's Civics (the EF ones) either stock in H stock (Si hatches) or running in a mod class with a basic swap (say just a B20z from a CR-V bolted in, no other work).

 

[Slicks]

Good recommendation parts for a person that is going into autoX instead of Coilovers?

Depending on the application, you can typically see a midrange coilover set go for 1/3 more than a good set of adjustable shocks and springs.

If I were you, I'd save my pennies for an extra month or two and swing the difference.

 

[Slicks]

I have acceptional car control, and when I was 18 I took car control lessons. Maybe I should check out an SLK forum so I can see what potential the 2.3L Kompressor has locked away. (anybody got a link?)

Two things.

One, everyone says they're an excellent driver. Even me.

Two, I would highly reccomend going off for a few hours and doing your own research on the cars that you're interested in. Asking us probably won't get you far.


Okay, three things.
I can't help but ask this question - You're planning a motor swap for your Fbody, but want to keep the budget small.
Yet you're looking at spending $10k ++ on an autocross toy?

I don't get it.


[Edit] - Sorry, double post. A mod may feel free to merge them, if so desired.

 

[nk4e]

Depending on the application, you can typically see a midrange coilover set go for 1/3 more than a good set of adjustable shocks and springs.

If I were you, I'd save my pennies for an extra month or two and swing the difference.

I was wondering about that post. Though I have edited it and I was aiming for Godspeed coilovers. Though I want to know what S13 users think about them.

 

[Duke]

In all honesty, I think the single biggest improvement in handling that can be made to a car is just adding a rear sway bar. Unless its an MR car, in which case it rotates enough on its own.

OK, I'll grant you this. My ACR had a beefy rear bar and I forgot I had added one to the Neon Sport as well.

 

[JCE]

Two things.

One, everyone says they're an excellent driver. Even me.

Two, I would highly reccomend going off for a few hours and doing your own research on the cars that you're interested in. Asking us probably won't get you far.


Okay, three things.
I can't help but ask this question - You're planning a motor swap for your Fbody, but want to keep the budget small.
Yet you're looking at spending $10k ++ on an autocross toy?

I don't get it.


[Edit] - Sorry, double post. A mod may feel free to merge them, if so desired.

1. Maybe so lol
2. I asked here mainly because there are thousands of people here and I played the odds that someone here knows something. I've reasearched prices, power and so forth.
3. My Camaro is just being restored to near factory condition. I already have the 305 ready to go in. This is the reason for my autocross toy--very little money is being spent on my Camaro making it possible for another project. And since I already own a daily driver as well I don't have to worry about transportation to/from work.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

But what are the actual restrictions is it on Engine CC. Car type?

I have a nightmare in England on the Time Attacks, as no one has quite decided what CC the RX7 is. 1.3 or 3.9 lol stupid I know.

Most events let me run in the 2ltr catagory with stuff like Evo's and Impreza's.
But other events I would love to enter I cant as the RX7 doesnt fall into any of the catagorys.

erm... what? The UK Time Attack was only set by Club FI and Club NA and Pro class,there are no engine size restrictions.

 

[Ghost_drift]

erm... what? The UK Time Attack was only set by Club FI and Club NA and Pro class,there are no engine size restrictions.

Different races all togeather. Wish I was a good enough driver for the club races, but im not lol.

The races I do take place at Santa Pod, Crail, and bedford north. The sant pod, and crail races are basicaly coned out tracks in the large display areas. Nothing flashy. But yeah Maybe in a year or 2 it will be time to move up to The Club classes in the "Official" time attack series.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Different races all togeather. Wish I was a good enough driver for the club races, but im not lol.

The races I do take place at Santa Pod, Crail, and bedford north. The sant pod, and crail races are basicaly coned out tracks in the large display areas. Nothing flashy. But yeah Maybe in a year or 2 it will be time to move up to The Club classes in the "Official" time attack series.

Crail run do time attacks? didnt know that any more info on it?

You should try and do a single event with the UK Time Attack series,They've changed the formats now to 4WD,RWD,FWD rather then just FI and NA.

 

[Ghost_drift]

Crail run do time attacks? didnt know that any more info on it?

You should try and do a single event with the UK Time Attack series,They've changed the formats now to 4WD,RWD,FWD rather then just FI and NA.

Thanx, last time I went on the site it still had clubs up. So I might venture to an event.

 

[Azuremen]

Tires showed up Wednesday. I would have mounted them yesterday but it decided it needed to snow one last time. Stupid weather being stupid. I'll likely have them on next week, then fly off for spring break. Come back the 20th to race the 21st and 22nd in Tricities.

 

[Keef]

You might wanna cruise around that night and crank some yanks back and forth to clean off the surface of the tires before you get to the track.

 

[Slicks]

My Azenis didn't have a whole lot of release agent left on them when I got 'em... The first two laps of the short track I did with them got the squirm out of em.

 

[Leonidae]

*click* now this is some good stuff right here!

 

[Slicks]

Event Log - March 8, 2009
VMSC Winter Series #3

Best time of 61.366, which would net me a 14th place by raw time, or 6th by PAX out of 40 entries.
Fast time of the day was a 57.226.

I decided to leave the Ziex 912's on the car due to the temperatures (Below freezing in the morning). It seemed like the best choice, although I may have gained a little bit of time with the Azenis on the last run or two. Can't wait for it to warm up a little, as it was one very cold morning doing timing, even wearing snowpants and a ski jacket.

We were able to fit six runs in through the day.

There were 3 other DSM's running - The most I've seen out yet.


Next planned event will be on the 22nd. I'm going to combine a skiing trip on the 21st, as the mountain and this track are about 3 hours from home but only a half hour apart. We'll see what the weather does, but I doubt I'll use the Azenis. Could be interesting if I do.

 

[Slicks]

Event Log - March 22, 2009
Saratoga Slush Series #3

Best time of 1:05.722, resulting in 6th place out of a sparse 11 entries. Another 3/10's would have netted me 4th. No PAX results, yet.

I left the Ziex 912's on for what will hopefully be the last time this season. I could have gotten away with the Azenis, but I had combined the racing with some skiing the day before and did not want to contend with fresh snow on those tires.

We got ten runs in total, 9 of which were timed.

There were two other DSM's running, and a total of four other members that made the 3 hour drive up for the event... Well, three if you do the speed limit. I made it up in about 2 hours when I went up late Friday night, and back down in 2.5 this afternoon.

Next event is... April 19th. Local, this time. Should give me some time to get a few things done on the car. I'd like to get the Azenis remounted on my 3rd set of wheels, I've got a couple little bits to properly restrain (one of my fender sheilds is currently attached via zip ties), and I may have a lead on a Supra side-mount intercooler - Considerably bigger than the stocker, and should hopefully lead to more consistant power and less heatsoak.
I was up skiing on Saturday, so between the drive up on Friday (open highway + no traffic, high speeds ensued), skiing Saturday, and racing Sunday, I think I may have had the best. Weekend. Evar.
However, the car is absolutely horridly filthy dirty and will require several hours to get it ship-shape again.

 

[Paulie]

If I was thinking about going out for some track time at QLD Raceway:

Do you really think I'd need new tyres just for the day? By that I mean, will a simple bit of recreational track time tear my tyres to shreds? I suppose if it ends up costing too much to get to a track day, then I'd have to hold off, I have modifications to do before I start blowing money on that stuff.