Bigger racing field = higher difficulty?

  • Thread starter Jedi2016
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Jedi2016
Actually, that happens in GT4.. with the AI. I distinctly remember one race.. can't remember which race it was, but I remember it was at the Motegi road course. I was in a slower car, so I was in 4th or 5th place at the start.. go around a few corners, I'm pretty much watching my line and not really what's ahead of me.. when what to my wondering eyes should appear but a Zonda! Sideways! In a cloud of smoke! And one other car spinning off into never-never land, having just collided with said Zonda. I was doing a pretty good clip at the time, and he was sitting still.. I tried to go around him, I really did... but we all know what happens when you jerk the wheel at high speed.. usually nothing at all, or it takes it's time doing what you want, and then you lose control entirely. Slammed right into him.

I'll agree the AI needs improvement.. I'm just saying they're going to have to reshuffle the priorities while they're at it. Can you imagine what it would be like with 24 cars, all using GT4's AI? *shudder*
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I remember one race at the 'ole 'Ring and I was bringing up the rear. I was messing around as I had just purchased the Falken Skyline GTR. I was seeing what it could do. Well I get past the starting corners, I get out onto the straight, dip down then come back up, over the jump. When I landed I saw the Woodone Supra and the Zexel Penzoil GTR spearing off in a cloud of smoke, at the little kink in that straight. I drove to them, stopped, waited 'till they got going again, exited, saved the replay, went to the replay theatre and started snapping some shots. When I get my usb key thingy, I'll show you guys the destruction.

The AI has some big problems. One thing I just thought. Well everyone has mentioned trying to overtake 20+ cars in Monaco. What about Autumn Ring Mini??? :scared: They wouldn't fit!!!

Every pro race driver, or any driver has their bad days. Now 20+ cars, damage and the possibility of unpredictable weather, that would put the best ever spanner into the mix. I watch the V8 Supercars and when one of the top runners goes off track or just has a really bad race or round, I think to myself that I'd love to have that in a game. It would add that bit of a challenge and it would be realistic.

I'd like it if the AI would make a mistake and turn me around, or turn eachother around, or cause a big accident. There's a saying for this and it's used more often than not. "That's racing" is that saying.
 
I'm not sure if damage is such a big issue. My greatest complain in GT4 is about the long endurance races, mainly because I like to have strategy in a race that goes far beyond chosing tyres to start it. And in GT4, with 5 other cars, sunny weather all along and even the impossibility to do mid-race saves, I haven't even bothered to try those races.

If the "Le Mans" game is still the reference concerning endurance races in the PS2 (inspite having poor graphics, awful sound and "arcadish" physics) , it is so because of: a) 24 cars at the start, that recreate a real lineup (the 2000 one); b) day/night/day cycles; c) random weather; d) mid race saves allowing us to complete such a race without getting killed or divorced.

However this game has no damage. And, frankly, if it had I'm sure I would have turned it OFF before starting such a long race.

I know this isn't realistic, but I don't want to have my engine blown with 2 hours left to end a 24 hours race. Or some stupid crash, even if caused by yours truly because his son unplugged the driving wheel.
 
We can't let foolish things like damage determine how good a game is. Do you want a racing game or a demolition derby? Come on now. Let's not overhype damage because that's what people are going to do online if the next GT has such a deal.

There's another racing incident that may happen. I believe there was a Trans-Am race at Road America in 2001. When the race was in the closing stages, rain began to intensify, and cars starting sliding off the track. I think as soon as one driver flew off the track, several others did. I think as many as 12 cars slid straight off the track, causing a red flag to end the race. Heck, anything can happen. I know the AI can be unforgiving, but I haven't really seen too much of this. I've been rammed into a bunch of times, but bad AI is in Pro Race Driver. If you haven't played this game, you don't know how bad AI gets. Play that game before telling me about GT4's AI. The AI was so bad in that game, that your skills don't matter in winning, it's making sure some other jackass doesn't rear-end you. And if you want a nightmare of a track with the asshole AI, race the V8 Supercar event at Canberra. You're just ASKING for a DNF there.

Still, though. Since there's no damage, AI doesn't seriously concern me in any GT so far. Even I have an anger problem sometimes, so if I'm not happy, I ram some guy off the track. AI is pointless? Sometimes, after flying off the track, they will sometimes come after you in rage. I don't really know what "better AI" means, so you'll have to clarify that to me beyond the ramming and such.
 
this thread reminds me of toca 1, those were the good ol days. if you bumped an AI car you got bumped back with interest. that was surprisingly realistic given what RL BTCC drivers drove like.
 
live4speed
If they don't make the AI recognise you and where you are on track, 20 car grids will be hell, dogems here I come. If they do, and they don't need to make the AI drive faster even, that would be a big plus but just make them recognise where you are and try to avoid hitting you at every turn.
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And maybe even throw in some blocking maneuvers and situational awareness for the AI as well. And allow them to actually be able to push their cars to the limit, rather than just piddling around the track like a three-legged race horse.
 
They actually put the power down well, what they do wrong, is slow down too much and too early for corners that needs to be addressed. Imagine 20 cars infront braking 100m too early for the first corner instead of 5.
 
This is a little off topic but that new Simbin game: GT Legends is supposed to have almost perfect AI. If you hit them, they remember and will hit you back.
I hink that GT... will have real human like reactions, like KY promised.
 
The game will change. You cant possibly imagine trying to do the one-lap-magic missions with 20 cars to pass. Especially on a skinny track like tsukuba. 100+ aspec point races would become near impossible (especially on single races/no quali with running starts). With running starts, youd basically start 20 seconds behind the leader.

The biggest problem for the 20 car fields will be the tracks themselves. Trial Mountain is the most suspectable since it only has six pit boxes and six grid slots. The pit straight is so short that theyd have to change the track to make them fit (not something im looking forward to).
 
I'm sure if they still include 2 lap races, they'll have only 6 cars on the grid for those types of races. And they won't use a FULL grid of 20+ cars for smaller tracks like tsukuba and such.

For races with street cars, they should have it stay at 6 cars I think. It fits with the whole motoring theme the GT series utilizes.

For races with race cars, then by all means, use a full grid of 20+ cars, on the larger tracks that can support this amount of cars.
 
You guys got to remember, it won't be 2 or 3 laps anymore, excluding the long courses like the Ring and La Sarthe. I just it'll be hard on Tsukuba track. It's so hard on 2 laps.
 
I guess all I can say is that if you have played "Le Mans 24 Hours," any NASCAR game, or "Ridge Racer V," climbing up the pack shouldn't be too challenging if you know how to win the damn thing. But you're right. The game WILL change. I'm sure each race won't feel like you're racing against 5 others when actually racing against 19 others. There's no official word on how many cars can be expected, but let's assume the number is 20. If the races will be as tough as racing GT World Championship, you can probably expect to have some easy competition against lesser-capable cars, and get into some deep s:censored: when you play with the big dogs up front (assuming qualifying for all races is not implemented). Many of us are used to racing in packs of 6 or even 8. Heck, I even remember racing against packs of 10 in the Crusin' arcade and Nintendo 64 games.

That brings me to something that won't really concern me, but some others. Most racing game players probably don't know about racing discipline in packs of 20. Packs of six or eight is bad, but more than that can be scary, right? Well, this is my point. So many things can happen in a race with several other cars. To bring up some scary incidents when racing against all sorts of competition. I try to remember it as best as I can, but the Grand Prix of Belgium in 1998 had cars all smashed up in the rain at Spa-Francorchamps. If you're in the back of the pack, it makes things much tougher for you because you don't know what the hell is going on up front, much less in wet conditions. Recently at Daytona, "The Big One" happened. Think about it- high speed, one car clips another, that tagged driver spins out... collecting other unwary competitors. Trans-Am at Road America in 2001- in the late stages of the race, the rain POUNDS DOWN on the track, and as many as 12 drivers slid off the track in different parts of the course, with the race eventually going to a Red Flag.

All I'd suggest is maybe playing some racing games which feature many cars on the track at once. This way, you get a feel as to what it's like to race against many more cars. Inexperienced racing gamers will have to learn racing dicipline against many more competitors.
 
The other thing I wish PD would do:
Would it be too hard to have the dots that mark the other cars on the track change colors as the back-markers are lapped. IE. the Red dot is you, (or the car you're are observing in B-Spec). The blue dots are the other cars in the field. Then as you lap cars the dots that represent them turn a different color.
In B-spec this would be no big deal as the cars are represented by letters and you know how far ahead of them you are.
But pit management would be a lot easier if you know that the car behind you is one you've lapped, or one that's close.
 
Gil, that is done in the game "Le Mans 24 Hours," and it can be a good help. I think to make things a bigger help, little icons can be above the cars proving they are lapped. So when you're going through traffic, you'll know what's for position. Even better, I'd like to maybe see something like "-1 Lap" for a car ahead of you. Then maybe a big icon showing races for position.

I want to talk more about stuff like this in the future, but for now, just wanted to comment on your claim, Mr. Gil.
 
well while on the subject of more cars and AI, i think gt5 should change b-spec into kinda like a teammate, which you can train and make better, and there will be things like races with teams and constructor championships. i think b-spec should be a separate entity and not just your get easy money slave.
 
While I'd like to see about 20 cars in GT5, I'm not expecting anything more than 10, and that's even if they do up the competitor count.
 
There would be some difficulties with large fields. For example, 20 on autumn ring mini would be mayhem. There would be soooooooo much traffic it would be needed to indulge in a bit of rallycross. Qualifying for all races is a must. All races increase to five laps minimum (with the exeption of le mans[2] and the 'ring[1]) and 20 cars is ok. for le mans tho' seperate classes would be nice :)
 
duke_toaster
There would be some difficulties with large fields. For example, 20 on autumn ring mini would be mayhem. There would be soooooooo much traffic it would be needed to indulge in a bit of rallycross. Qualifying for all races is a must. All races increase to five laps minimum (with the exeption of le mans[2] and the 'ring[1]) and 20 cars is ok. for le mans tho' seperate classes would be nice :)
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On smaller, compact tracks such as that, and tsukuba, deep forest, and the like, more than likely won't use a full grid of 20 cars. PD isn't that stupid. For the small tracks, I'm quite sure they'll use a max of 6 like they currently do. Large tracks, they'll go over 6.
 
duke_toaster
There would be some difficulties with large fields. For example, 20 on autumn ring mini would be mayhem. There would be soooooooo much traffic it would be needed to indulge in a bit of rallycross. Qualifying for all races is a must. All races increase to five laps minimum (with the exeption of le mans[2] and the 'ring[1]) and 20 cars is ok. for le mans tho' seperate classes would be nice :)
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Okay, that is true, but how many lines of code would it take to limit the field to "x-number" of cars if the track is less than 'x-miles' long?
It can't be all that many.

Now for more of what I would like to know or see in future iterations of my favorite game:
I'd like to see more cars on rally tracks. I realize that in WRC it's one car against the clock. But where's the challenge in that. I also think the handling model for rally in GT4 sucks compared to GT3. We got all these great rally/"special conditions" tracks, but all the off-road ones are nearly undrivable.
I would like the ability to qualify in single races. Not so much to enable myself to start in first. But it would be nice to be able to set up the car to be competitive with the field.
Also, when previewing a race so that you know whether the car you've brought is a "cannon" to the ".22's" in the field or vice-versa, could we not lose a day?
This isn't all that important to me. (Except when I'm looking for certain used cars)
But to the "Club 229" junkies from GT3 it might be.
Further, the jury is still out on the "mileage" issue with the used cars.
It keeps me from buying cars I'd really like to add to the garage due to the cost of bringing the chassis up to date. (I suppose that after running El-Capitan enduro enough times It becomes a moot point.)

I would also like to be able to drive cars like the 1937 Audi audobahn racer, the Prowler, the Nike car, and the Toyota "formula" like car in actual races. I could give a rip about the early Merc carriages w/o the info box (as in GT2).

Also, what's the deal with the mini-vans and grocery getters in this game?
Does it really matter that there are nearly 700 "different" cars in the game if nearly 500 of them are dullard transportation for "grand-ma"?

It's great to include the "classics" but when we said we wanted the Datsun 510, most of us meant the 2-door.
We got the Jensen Interceptor, but what about the Jensen-Healey convertible?
We got the Triumph Spitfire, but what about the TR-3, TR-4, and TR-6?
We got the MGF, what about the MGA, MG-TC, MG-TF, MGB, and MGC?

We have at least three versions of every Skyline made since 1989. Is that because they are essentially different from each other, or is it because it ups the "count".
Does it really matter if we don't have the "info" box like in GT-2?

And I still think that more people that actually like to drive would drive the enduros, especially the long ones, if they could save in the pits.

I will give B-spec kudos for allowing me to win some of the cars I want while getting other stuff around the house done in the process.
 
Gil
Okay, that is true, but how many lines of code would it take to limit the field to "x-number" of cars if the track is less than 'x-miles' long?
It can't be all that many.

Now for more of what I would like to know or see in future iterations of my favorite game:
I'd like to see more cars on rally tracks. I realize that in WRC it's one car against the clock. But where's the challenge in that. I also think the handling model for rally in GT4 sucks compared to GT3. We got all these great rally/"special conditions" tracks, but all the off-road ones are nearly undrivable.
I would like the ability to qualify in single races. Not so much to enable myself to start in first. But it would be nice to be able to set up the car to be competitive with the field.
Also, when previewing a race so that you know whether the car you've brought is a "cannon" to the ".22's" in the field or vice-versa, could we not lose a day?
This isn't all that important to me. (Except when I'm looking for certain used cars)
But to the "Club 229" junkies from GT3 it might be.
Further, the jury is still out on the "mileage" issue with the used cars.
It keeps me from buying cars I'd really like to add to the garage due to the cost of bringing the chassis up to date. (I suppose that after running El-Capitan enduro enough times It becomes a moot point.)

I would also like to be able to drive cars like the 1937 Audi audobahn racer, the Prowler, the Nike car, and the Toyota "formula" like car in actual races. I could give a rip about the early Merc carriages w/o the info box (as in GT2).

Also, what's the deal with the mini-vans and grocery getters in this game?
Does it really matter that there are nearly 700 "different" cars in the game if nearly 500 of them are dullard transportation for "grand-ma"?

It's great to include the "classics" but when we said we wanted the Datsun 510, most of us meant the 2-door.
We got the Jensen Interceptor, but what about the Jensen-Healey convertible?
We got the Triumph Spitfire, but what about the TR-3, TR-4, and TR-6?
We got the MGF, what about the MGA, MG-TC, MG-TF, MGB, and MGC?

We have at least three versions of every Skyline made since 1989. Is that because they are essentially different from each other, or is it because it ups the "count".
Does it really matter if we don't have the "info" box like in GT-2?

And I still think that more people that actually like to drive would drive the enduros, especially the long ones, if they could save in the pits.

I will give B-spec kudos for allowing me to win some of the cars I want while getting other stuff around the house done in the process.
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dont forget, some people had talked about, and there were upposed screens of GT4 motorcycles. but did we get any? no! 👎
 
Motorbikes do not belong in Gran Turismo, Kaz knows this and if he was to put them in a game it's be a seperate one, maybe along the lines of Riding Spirits.
 
I only hope this will not subsitute for stupid AI even though its suppsed to be "upgraded."

What I mean by that is, while the race gets harder to fight, I hope the higher difficulty with more cars isn't the "upgrade."

I mean...d*mn, its hard to say. Hope you get what I mean.
 
I can't stand the AI in GT4, I try and I try to create close races and they just bash right into m eall the bloody time, I've been pushed off the track too many times and I've had them slam into the back of me, pull out right in front of me when I'm going a lot faster than them, they're the thickest AI I've raced against..
 
live4speed
I can't stand the AI in GT4, I try and I try to create close races and they just bash right into m eall the bloody time, I've been pushed off the track too many times and I've had them slam into the back of me, pull out right in front of me when I'm going a lot faster than them, they're the thickest AI I've raced against..
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prime example of this was the real circuit tours race at nurburgring. i was just passing the 89C and it turns into me and barges me off the track! many words left my mouth in those seconds
 
The AI needs to be like in real races. Like if you start last even in a long races (not enduro) you'd need a pit strategy and you wouldn't finish first all the time. and the AI should get blue flags so It won't block you. And the AI could crash and their races would be finished.I wouldn't mind having 20 car on autumn ring mini if I can qualify
 
G-T-4-Fan
PD wouldn't let you pass 20 cars in 2 laps, they would show what a CRAPPY AI THEY HAVE:mad: So that would be embarressing....so no, I think you just HAVE to qualify....:( BYE BYE EASY FAST MONEY MAKING RACES:(:guilty:
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No, qualification just means you make MORE money because you get pole every time, which means a nice fat bonus every time.:P

and the AI should get blue flags so It won't block you.
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Good idea. Citta di Aria is already a pain in the ass in time attack due to the horribly narrow road, and in the races it's just ridiculous because there's NO WAY to overtake the opponent without a penalty for hitting him.

(personally, I don't like the black flag ideas. Punting Miatas into the gravel at Fuji Speedway is too much fun to throw away)
 
I'm going to make it the usual NASCAR b*tching that "there's no passing" when it comes to Citta di Aria. I like Costa di Amalfi much more because it's twisty, it's fun, and actually I like it better than getting my ass handed to me on a course where two Mini Coopers side-by-side can probably fit through. I see 20 cars to a track on tight places like that, I'll be even more frustrated by putting up with "Pro Race Driver's" b*tchy AI. I think the XBOX version could have up to 14 to a track, but I don't know if the same thuggish AI is in the XBOX variant.

Nurburgring Nordschleife is a narrow course, but it did look amazing with all those JGTC race cars on the track at once. I normally am not a big fanatic of the course, but it does provide the best replay angles in Gran Turismo 4. This was even though I was kind of disappointed with Le Mans' views. The bigger benefactor would be the real race tracks because you get a chance to race tracks with all sorts of cars. I still want to see a bigtime usage of Grand Valley. In a way, I kind of want to see Le Mans and bigtime GT race cars take over Grand Valley. Maybe even come up with a "Grand Valley 500" or even a "Grand Valley 1000." It's still wonderful just imagining current GT4 tracks with all sorts of cars on track at once. Street courses may be more challenging with lots of cars on track at once. Just look at the Champ Car race recently run in Toronto. It will be tougher to race street courses, especially those with two lanes of narrow road.

Carry on, folks.
 

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