Biggest tuning secret! Rear toe!

[Duman079]

More speed doesn't mean you got there faster! 💡

Best answer yet lol.

A car also slows down with more downforce ( I tested this on a couple of cars with a rear spoiler). Who cares. Just take the corners better and youre there. Its the same as a Veyron VS Nissan Skyline R34 GTR in the ring. The veyron goes 400 kmh, the r34 goes 340 kmh. I win in my r34 with more then 30 seconds.

Its hard to find the perfect setup for a car. I think that if you really want to be the''best'', you have to change them for every single track. Corners ? Much/few and long/sharp? Straight parts ? Will you get your top speed there ? I dont change the toe, because Im not going for the win. When people use a Ford GT and McLaren , I use a Skyline r34 and become 2nd out of 8 lmao. However I used some different toe settings for my Evo which i found at the tuning forum for the nurburgring. The car is perfect because I edited it further my self. But I dont know if the toe effects the car his specs.

 

[Motor City Hami]

Far too much assuming and ignoring for any debate in this thread to be valuable thus far.

That's what I was also trying to get at. Far too many thoeries around these tuning forums and not many concrete test results posted.

 

[PiRacingChamp]

That's what I was also trying to get at. Far too many thoeries around these tuning forums and not many concrete test results posted.

Considering the age of many posters, I wonder how many actually have practical, real-word experience. Excellent observation 👍

 

[Jack002]

I assume most of the discussion here is on FR layouts, right? What about FF, MR, 4WD? Whats the best toe in/out setup for them?

 

[PAPPACLART]

I have + 0.17 toe on my 305bhp RM NSX, and it handleds like a dream. If I put a minus toe on the front it understeers.

WHats the best cure for FR cars to stop understeer, I use lots of camber at the front and decrease toes at the rear.

 

[yoghurt_dog]

Reading all this with interest.

So, can anyone say for sure whether they think a stronger toe setting is preferable on the front or rear of any particular car? I'm tuning an MR2 for the online Grand Valley east time trial and I think I've settled at +.05 for both. But it's not like I've had the time to try every possible combination, and I haven't tuned any other setting yet, currently messing about with spring rates.

I found camber setting to have surprisingly little effect on lap times.

Not touched downforce settings yet but presumably optimal toe settings will shift with different downforce settings..........

And yeah I go through this long process every time I get serious about trying to batter my lap record on any track and set my heart on a car for the job!

 

[DMoss84]

Poppins' extra mph from toe settings is a result of flawed physics mechanics (assuming test conditions were identical). This game has a couple of issues like this.. For example; the height and downforce exploit on ff cars showed that gt5 took a shortcut in how downforce is applied. (much higher front ride height than rear with moderate downforce made the cars faster and handle better).

 

[Ghost Rydor]

Try clicking "reset to default settings".
I can confirm the opposite! All cars I checked come with +0.20 rear toe.

There can however be, sometimes (very few exceptions), differences with the camber settings from car to car in the game.

Still, most of the times those values are inaccurate. If you've ever seen (in real life) a tire merchant checking his electronic terminal or reference book prior to performing tire alignment you will have realised that although differing generally by little, each car model has its own reccomended (factory) camber and alignment angles.

GT5 appears to use default fudged values, which I find very weird as real wheel alignment data is very readily and easily available, not secret.

There is nothing weird about it. Its just a representative value, like all the other suspension settings. It has been simplified for the masses which is understandable since it appears most GT fans can't spell or even do other forum users the decency of using a spell check let alone understand the real world values of suspension tuning.
The car "underneath" has its own chassis dynamics. That is why they all come default at 20+.
They got to start you off somewhere and what better way then to highlight the importance of rear toe by giving it a stand out value from the get go?

Anyone who thinks any of the adjustment values they are making on cars can be transferred to the real world are mistaken.
Example. Sway bars on a Veyron and civic may both be rated at 4 but you can bet your bottom dollar the Veyron 4 is a lot stronger then the civic 4. In the real world both maybe half of the max that car can use but they will each have totally different real world values.

 

[Rated-M3]

In regards to the default being +.20, it's just like real life. When you put a new suspension on a car, you need to align it.

 

[shirakawaa]

There is nothing weird about it. Its just a representative value, like all the other suspension settings. It has been simplified for the masses which is understandable since it appears most GT fans can't spell or even do other forum users the decency of using a spell check let alone understand the real world values of suspension tuning.
The car "underneath" has its own chassis dynamics. That is why they all come default at 20+.
They got to start you off somewhere and what better way then to highlight the importance of rear toe by giving it a stand out value from the get go?

Providing wrong values just to highlight the importance of a setting doesn't make sense in my opinion, especially on a simulator. There are other ways to do that.

Anyone who thinks any of the adjustment values they are making on cars can be transferred to the real world are mistaken.
Example. Sway bars on a Veyron and civic may both be rated at 4 but you can bet your bottom dollar the Veyron 4 is a lot stronger then the civic 4. In the real world both maybe half of the max that car can use but they will each have totally different real world values.

There are relative and absolute settings in the game.
Ride height, stabilizer and damper settings are relative (in past games ride height was absolute though). They provide adjustments from certain (and unknown to the user) base values.

Camber, toe and spring stiffness settings are absolute. Their values represent what you get.

I can't tell for sure about spring settings (most probably in many cases they are only estimates or fudged values), but toe and camber settings almost never correspond to real life values in GT5.

In regards to the default being +.20, it's just like real life. When you put a new suspension on a car, you need to align it.

Stock suspensions have +0.20 degrees of rear toe too. I could have partially understood that value if it was adjustable (like in real life, to some extent) as some sort of starting beginner setting, but in GT5 users are forced to fit racing suspensions to change it.

 

[Poppins]

adding + toe in the front also increases oversteer.

 

[Ghost Rydor]

Providing wrong values just to highlight the importance of a setting doesn't make sense in my opinion, especially on a simulator. There are other ways to do that.

There are relative and absolute settings in the game.
Ride height, stabilizer and damper settings are relative (in past games ride height was absolute though). They provide adjustments from certain (and unknown to the user) base values.

Camber, toe and spring stiffness settings are absolute. Their values represent what you get.

I can't tell for sure about spring settings (most probably in many cases they are only estimates or fudged values), but toe and camber settings almost never correspond to real life values in GT5.


Stock suspensions have +0.20 degrees of rear toe too. I could have partially understood that value if it was adjustable (like in real life, to some extent) as some sort of starting beginner setting, but in GT5 users are forced to fit racing suspensions to change it.

How can the values be wrong when they are only intended to be representative not actual?
All cars have independent suspension settings and in real life all cars do not have 20+ rear toe in. It doesn't matter what they said it was in the game the effects would just be altered to suit. I assume they are not attempting to recreate those exact measurements because they change when you do things like lower the car. When a car is lowered your suspension ends up with negative camber which needs to be adjusted out if you want to maintain the same suspension geometries. Real world happenings such as these are not present in the game no doubt because it would push the level of complexity above the limits of the average gamer. Hence "actual" figures would not be real anyway due to suspension deflections and altered geometries that the game does not acknowledge.
So we have these generic virtual settings for things like toe and camber while the parts that keep true to their values are recreated to those exact values(springs and dampers, yes I know they change over time but they are more repeatable then your suspension that deforms every time it moves).

Helps cover up any inaccuracies between the real and virtual worlds.
That's my theory anyway as an ex-mechanic.

 

[JazzMann]

Hi Guys,
Cool thread!!! I Will def. Test my rear toe on my Clio Renault Trophy Race Car '00 on Tsusuka tonight!!!
The Clio is a MR, so i vil try the + 0,04 toe and se if i get faster arround the corners and les overstear out of them!!
Cant whait to test it...

Will be Back

 

[Schadenfreude13]

That default toe really makes no sense, simulation speaking. Every car should have its own settings (like spring values, etc). It's a fudged value put there for gameplay purposes: to make cars easier to drive, irrespectively of their original driving characteristics.
Even more disappointing is that to get rid of it one is forced to buy racing suspensions (when in most cases in real life limited adjustments are possible even on stock suspensions).

Haven't read through the entire thread yet, so forgive me if I'm repeating someone else's post, but if you look at the 'factory' suspension settings of any car (I do this buy buying the fully customizable suspension, then removing it in the tuning screen), you'll notice that the cars don't all have a default +.20 rear toe. So it's just a default setting on the customizable suspension, which is why you'll find often that if you just buy the custom suspension and make no adjustments, it ruins your car's handling.

 

[shirakawaa]

There are very few cars that do not have a default + 0.20 rear toe.
Reportedly the X2010, the Formula GT, and a few other Premium race cars (that I haven't tried).
So maybe not all cars, but probably something like 99% of them have that setting.

 

[Schadenfreude13]

There are very few cars that do not have a default + 0.20 rear toe.
Reportedly the X2010, the Formula GT, and a few other Premium race cars (that I haven't tried).
So maybe not all cars, but probably something like 99% of them have that setting.

I'm relatively new to tuning my cars (in-game that is, been doing it for 15 years in the real world). I'll go through my garage later and get back to you on it. I have noticed on the 3 or 4 cars I have been tuning in-game that various default settings differ from car to car.

Edit: Took a look at my garage. It seems you're absolutely right. The overwhelming majority of cars have a default (as in standard or 'stock' or no suspension parts installed...) rear toe setting of +.20.

The stock suspension settings in general do vary as I mentioned above. Specifically, Front/Rear Ride Height, Spring Rate, Dampers (extension and compression), and Anti-roll bars all vary car to car, while the Front/Rear Camber is always at 0/0 and Front/Rear Toe is always 0/+.20.

I find this kind of an odd move on the part of Polyphony Digital. Auto manufacturers always test and spec certain suspension settings, and ship their cars with the specced setups. The settings that do vary essentially reflect this, yet there appears to be a generic camber/toe setting???

I wonder if this is a bug, and not intentional on the part of PD. Or does it have to do with the so-called "Black Magic" associated with tuning camber and toe in the real world? Thoughts?

 

[Basilea]

Can somebody tell me what is correct? It really confuses me!

Toe in = (+)value "if the car would drive to the top of the screen" the wheels would be like this ( ^ )

Toe out = (-)value "if the car would drive to the top of the screen" the wheels would be like this ( v )


This is how it is in the in game menu, but Scaff's GT4 (5) Tuning Guide says it's the other way around... the default value for rear toe is + 0.20 so this means the rear has toe in?

 

[budious]

That is correct according to the diagram on the tuning screen; there are four positive icons on the interior of the car and four negative icons on the exterior reflecting the polarity of the wheel arc adjustments.

 

[oopssorryy]

The only advantage I have found with using rear toe is on FWD cars. You can us toe out on the rear tires to help kick the back end out, and make a FWD handle more like a RWD without increasing tire wear. I think you should be able to use toe on RWD cars, but on the front tires with out increasing wear, but I haven't tested it as of yet.

 

[GrimSinn]

Reading through this thread I'm surprised. Ill clear something up. .20 rear toe is NOT PD's generic setting for "STOCK" suspensions ( or GT would be crap.) the thought of it is comical.

In the tuning option ONLY the aftermarket (tunable) suspensions allow you to see what the settings are let alone tune them. You see when you have a aftermarket suspension the original is not "checked" off and settings are not visible, even when the stock suspension is being used you can't access the settings option therefore the stock suspension settings are not displayed.

When a aftermarket tunable suspension is installed it's got generic settings, most of them are the same all around except the spring rates, and various others at times seemingly car specific.

If you want to know what the default settings are you need to google it. I've done this, I've even gone so far as to go to car forums to see what people tuning the life versions are doing to them (specifically my STi WRX) and then seeing how it translates in game.

Also realize when getting stock settings they change when the car is lowered. For example when doing a wheel alignment the alignment settings (stock for the car) will be different based on ride height.

I also was able to look into the game coding of GTPSP to see what the gear settings are used in each car when not being tunable in the game. I was pleased to see them using the exact gear ratios of each car, this was in GTPSP's coding, it would be ridiculous for real world settings to be used in GTPSP and not GT5.

Not to mention it's pretty obvious as the car with a stock suspension doesn't handle the same as the same car with a tunable suspension on default settings. That should be proof enough...

If you want a lil help with tuning the rear toe. It's simple. In the tuning page when in the suspension option looking at rear toe hit the "?" option it will give a great explanation of what to do with it.

For a lil personal advice

Rear wheel drive cars with crap loads of power benefit from increasing the toe-in (positive toe) as it stabilizes the rear end and will reduce the on-throttle-oversteer. Good suspension settings matched to good LSD settings is key.

For FWD cars your rear wheels are not supplying power, they tend to understeer so reducing the toe-in even going toe-out will help the rear end rotate and reduce the understeer.

 

[shirakawaa]

Reading through this thread I'm surprised. Ill clear something up. .20 rear toe is NOT PD's generic setting for "STOCK" suspensions ( or GT would be crap.) the thought of it is comical.

In the tuning option ONLY the aftermarket (tunable) suspensions allow you to see what the settings are [...]

No, sorry, stopped reading here. Check better.

 

[GrimSinn]

No, sorry, stopped reading here. Check better.

It's funny because you seem the most clueless.

How the hell do you see the "stock" settings with no tunable parts installed? Your confused buddy.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

No, sorry, stopped reading here. Check better.

It's true; you can't see default settings without having at least purchased one of the adjustable units. Once you do so you can see default settings but not when the car is 100% stock.

 

[GrimSinn]

It's true; you can't see default settings without having at least purchased one of the adjustable units. Once you do so you can see default settings but not when the car is 100% stock.

No you then see the default setting of the minimal tuneable part, not the stock suspension. The only thing I've see vary in any way in the same variation (car specific) is the springs and the odd 0 rear toe but the rest are generic.

The greyed out settings I don't believe are used (I've done wheel alignments and never have I see such a generic toe setting)

This is easily testable, I'm going to compare the greyed out gear settings with known stock gear ratios.

 

[Schadenfreude13]

No you then see the default setting of the minimal tuneable part, not the stock suspension.

Wrong. RJ is right. By buying a tunable part, like an FC suspension you can then remove it and see the stock settings.

Thanks for playing, Grim.

 

[GrimSinn]

Quite interesting, checking some known gear ratios the greyed out gears are using good real world gearing.

However the suspension is bothering me. It's 100% certain those are not stock settings used in the real world. Why the Hell would PD fudge up the game with bad suspension modeling.

Has it been tested? Are we certain the greyed out suspension settings are the stock settings used or just generic defaults AFTER modifying.

Seems like this needs further examining for me.

 

[GrimSinn]

I've got the ZR1 wheel alignment specs in front of me. The greyed out settings displayed under stock suspensions ONLY after buying a aftermarket suspension is NOT what the cars use in real life.

Stock real world ZR1

Toe F/R
.10/.10

Camber F/R
-1.00/-1.20

In the game it's 0 a toe/camber except for the mostly generic -.20 rear toe.

I'm going to run some test demain cause I'm tired, but I find it hard to believe PD would use such generic suspension settings. It seems more likely that the settings greyed out are NOT used when the car is stock but rather generic after modifying.

It's gonna be me & 3 ZR1 set-ups 1 will be default stock ZR1 nothing bought for it nothing installed, then one with a tunable suspension but using the real world settings (as best as I can simulate) then a tuned suspension using the greyed out settings under stock suspension.

 

[GrimSinn]

Just did a lil quick test (couldn't help it)

Bought a new ZR1 and only bought a fully tunable suspension.

I ran some laps in stock trim as my baseline. I them installed the tunable suspension using the greyed out settings from the stock suspension, except for the dampers I left those default, and ran some laps. Finally I ONLY adjusted the camber & toe to what I got from the real world alignment specs.

Out of the 2 variations of the tuned suspension, the one using real world specs handled much better but more importantly closer to the unmodified car. The tuned suspension using the toe/camber settings from the greyed out stock suspension not only handled like crap, but not even close to the unmodified run.

Try it for yourself.

I'm still going to do more testing, however

 

[shirakawaa]

A relatively easy test for that could be checking accurately (using the same visuals/angles) in the photo mode if camber with stock suspensions settings is visible and how visible it is compared to fully tunable suspensions with real life values. Even one degree of camber should be visible.

Cars with relatively high camber in real life would be easier to test.

If no camber is visible at all with stock suspensions (or in other words, if fully tuned suspensions with real life values show more camber than with stock suspensions) then it's highly possible that stock suspensions use the generic -0.20 rear toe setting visible in the tuning screen and not different settings for each car according to real life values.

EDIT: Still, I'm convinced that in GT5 wrong values for camber and toe are used.
The old Fiat 500 for example has strong rear positive camber in real life (about 1.5 degrees). In GT5 rear wheels look quite straight, maybe even almost with negative camber.
Same for the Citroen 2CV.

 

[budious]

You know it's real easy because if the stock suspension is:

RH 0/0
SR 4.0/3.0
Dampers 1
Anti-Roll Bar 1
Camber 0.0/0.0
Toe 0.00/0.20

Then just port all those numbers over to the fully custom suspension:

RH 0/0
SR 4.0/3.0
Ext: 1/1
Com: 1/1
Anti-roll: 1/1
Camber: 0.0/0.0
Toe: 0.00/0.20

Test both setups, you should get identical lap times from both kits. I have tested this already and this is how it works. Afterwards, set the dampers and extension and compression 2, and then 3, while keeping anti-roll bar at 1. You can determine how much better the car drives with just those simple adjustments. The dampers setting in the height adjustable kit is just a hard-lock pairing of extension and compression with the range locked to 1-3. You can replicate the similar handling and lap times following this same test procedure. The grayed out numbers are the real stock numbers for these cars as PD has programmed them to behave according to their game physics, not real world physics.