BMW or Camry, now with money!

[Bopop4]

First, that speed isn't exactly inconsequential. When you're trying to pass a Subaru wagon doing 35 in a 55MPH area and oncoming traffic is threatening to lock up a rare passing area, you'll wish you had more of it.

Second, the way I see it, your choice reveals that you really consider creature comforts and ride quality more important than performance or the experience of driving the car.

A: If it makes that much of a difference in whether you can actually pass, then you shouldn't be passing in the first place.

B: Can't violate the AUP so I'll just say that yes, he wants to get form A-B. If he wants to have fun then he'll get a sports car and take it to a track.

I'd rather drive his Camry than your Sunbird, at least the Camry could go around a corner without falling half.

 

[White & Nerdy]

I didn't read that. Either way, I'm pretty sure he'll be fine with overtaking a 35mph subaru that you're suggesting or any slow driver.

Whatever engine it has, that situation I described actually happened and it was probably close enough that I shouldn't have gone for it.

Of course, considering that my particular car isn't in the best condition, they might be pretty close. Who knows.

 

[Slash]

Second, the way I see it, your choice reveals that you really consider creature comforts and ride quality more important than performance or the experience of driving the car.

Most people do.

 

[Aquarelle]

Such a poultry power difference will never be felt on the road, that's before you get into real world variables such as mileage and age of parts that affect power.

Dyno figures and simulations only tell half the story, besides which both cars are made for economy, not quarter mile times.

Here's an idea, why don't you drive your sunbird if you enjoy it and you let everyone else drive what they want (or can afford) if they enjoy it?

Nobody was having a go at you for driving a sunbird until you started picking on others for what they drive.

 

[White & Nerdy]

That's the thing though. Considering that this is a forum about cars, I guess I figured we weren't "most people" and would have different priorities when only able to afford one car.

 

[KinLM]

Wow..

Goodness me.

First off, a Camry was not built to go to 100 as quickly as possible. It was not built to be fast.

It was built to be reliable, comfortable, safe, and all around good.

What you're saying is that his car is crap because you can get to 100 in 4 seconds less? Gee! In the real world, on normal roads with a speed limit of 65, I'd definitely take 4 seconds faster to 100! I just want to race everybody!

Screw being comfortable in traffic jams! Or having a reliable car! Or saving money! I'd so rather have a car that's 2 seconds faster to 60 because in the real world where you drive every day, that's what counts. Not any of that comfort or anything. The world is my racetrack and your car is godawful because it's slower than mine! /endsarcasm

Comparing a Camry's 0-60 times to anything is completely irrelevant because it was simply not meant to be fast (although it isn't actually all that slow).

When you're looking at your car on the back of a tow truck because that beast of an engine let go since it lacks the reliability of the Toyota, maybe you'll understand what about 10 people seem to be telling you in every thread on here.

 

[Bopop4]

Yeah, so we want a car that is easy to live with and cheap.

If you're so gung-ho on speed, why don't you strip your car, remove the spare tire, and switch to a total loss system to reduce power loss?

Edit: Hear that @White & Nerdy? Sounds like a Pratt & Whitney TF33, eight of them actually.

 

[Parker]

I don't mind not having any of that stuff.


Speaking of which...

I don't have A/C.

I don't have heated seats/seat.

I don't have a heated steering wheel.

I didn't have power steering.

I didn't have power brakes.

I don't have power windows.

I don't have power locks.

I don't have heater vents.

I don't have satellite radio.

I don't have anything high tech.




Perfectly happy.

I thought you had a mid 90's Dodge minivan, it doesn't have any of those features?

 

[Slash]

Yeah, so we want a car that is easy to live with and cheap.

If you're so gung-ho on speed, why don't you strip your car, remove the spare tire, and switch to a total loss system to reduce power loss?

It actually looks respectable in that form.

I thought you had a mid 90's Dodge minivan, it doesn't have any of those features?

I have a 1999 van. I was referring about our 1985 F250. Actually the van doesn't have any of that either other than power steering and power brakes. No ABS on either as well.

 

[White & Nerdy]

Such a poultry power difference will never be felt on the road, that's before you get into real world variables such as mileage and age of parts that affect power.

Dyno figures and simulations only tell half the story, besides which both cars are made for economy, not quarter mile times.

Here's an idea, why don't you drive your sunbird if you enjoy it and you let everyone else drive what they want (or can afford) if they enjoy it?

Nobody was having a go at you for driving a sunbird until you started picking on others for what they drive.

Actually, it started when I insulted the Chevrolet Cruze for having too little engine and too much weight, and said it wasn't an "upgrade" from the Cobalt becuase the base Cobalt puts out more power than the top-of-the-line Cruze! (Or at least it did, until the Cruze Diesel came along). Whereupon the entire forum shouted "because interior!" like that shoud matter at a car forum.

Also note that most of the time I don't even notice how uncomfortable my car is. The interior isn't put together all that well, but it's not really that bad to deal with. The faults I notice are the ones that actually have to do with driving - the steering is a bit lighter than it should be, the driving position isn't set up quite right, and the pedal positions are set up exactly wrong for heel-and-toe downshifting.

 

[Aquarelle]

That's the thing though. Considering that this is a forum about cars, I guess I figured we weren't "most people" and would have different priorities when only able to afford one car.

What you're not considering is things like insurance, I own a Skyline and insurance for it was so astronomical that I've settled for third party (covers other people but not my car)

It's all well and good being into cars and wanting a sports car, but in the real world where we (late teens, early 20s) are all stuck with minimum wage jobs sinking everything we earn into the cars we love, why does it matter what the car is?

To be a car enthusiast means to love cars, not bankrupt yourself by taking massive loans to make your first car a fast one and then spend every pay cheque modifying and fueling it.

like that shoud matter at a car forum.

What about the other 300 days a year when you're not driving for enjoyment on back roads, when you're stuck in traffic on the hot summer afternoons or the freezing cold winter mornings?

There's more to a car than recreation when you can only afford one.

 

[Slash]

What you're not considering is things like insurance, I own a Skyline and insurance for it was so astronomical that I've settled for third party (covers other people but not my car)

It's all well and good being into cars and wanting a sports car, but in the real world where we (late teens, early 20s) are all stuck with minimum wage jobs sinking everything we earn into the cars we love, why does it matter what the car is?

To be a car enthusiast means to love cars, not bankrupt yourself by taking massive loans to make your first car a fast one and then spend every pay cheque modifying and fueling it.

Thank you!

 

[Bopop4]

and the pedal positions are set up exactly wrong for heel-and-toe downshifting.

I wonder why...

Totally not because it's a crapbox designed for doing the exact opposite of sport driving.

 

[Slash]

But it's ALMOST a muscle car, don't you know?

 

[Bopop4]

But it's ALMOST a muscle car, don't you know?

Yeah, and my Focus is ALMOST an SVT Cobra.

 

[White & Nerdy]

What you're not considering is things like insurance, I own a Skyline and insurance for it was so astronomical that I've settled for third party (covers other people but not my car)

It's all well and good being into cars and wanting a sports car, but in the real world where we (late teens, early 20s) are all stuck with minimum wage jobs sinking everything we earn into the cars we love, why does it matter what the car is?

Insurance on my car is less than half a week's work per month, and I'm working part time at $10 an hour.

To be a car enthusiast means to love cars, not bankrupt yourself by taking massive loans to make your first car a fast one and then spend every pay cheque modifying and fueling it.

That's what I'm saying. You don't need to drive yourself into debt, but don't just give up either and do the "it doesn't need to be fun and/or I'm not going to mod it because it's only a daily driver/family car/temporary wheels while I'm in college" thing.

I wonder why...

Totally not because it's a crapbox designed for doing the exact opposite of sport driving.

I'd say it's that infamous GM apathy rearing its head again. GM cars could have some good traits, like the availability of a V6 in a 2600lb car, but after reading Car Guys vs. Bean Counters, I'd say anything fun about a GM car not called "Camaro", "Corvette", "Firebird" or "Fiero" was accidental. Doesn't make this car not fun to beat the snot out of, but it probably wasn't intended to be fun to beat the snot out of.

 

[Bopop4]

I'd say it's that infamous GM apathy rearing its head again. GM cars could have some good traits, like the availability of a V6 in a 2600lb car, but after reading Car Guys vs. Bean Counters, I'd say anything fun about a GM car not called "Camaro", "Corvette", "Firebird" or "Fiero" was accidental. Doesn't make this car not fun to beat the snot out of, but it probably wasn't intended to be fun to beat the snot out of.

That's not the point. (You can have fun in ANY car.)

The point is that you're belittling other peoples cars as un-fun, when your car is just as mundane as theirs.

Which is actually very fun for me, because I can sit back and watch this unfold.

Incoming pumpkins.

 

[Slash]

when your car is just as mundane as theirs.

If not worse.

 

[Aquarelle]

Once again, you're confusing /you/ with /everyone else/

Insurance costs more depending on where you live, your age, your driving experience and your car.

Im a 19 year old driving a Nissan Skyline, so naturally my insurance premiums are sky high.
Luckily in my case I make enough money to afford a v6 maxima for daily driving and a Skyline for fun, however that is me and my own situation, most people aren't that lucky and you need to consider that.

I'd also point out that I have a great deal of fun in my Maxima which despite the 3 litre v6 is still an economy car, I'm sure you have fun in your Sunbird and I'm sure Hawk has fun in his Camry.

Fun comes in many flavours. Fun can be flying down back roads (in a safe and responsible manner) or cruising through town with your friends with music blaring or going on long road trips with your closest friend(s) or partner.

Fun is not just one persons ideal, just as not everyone could enjoy being in your Sunbird like you do.

 

[hawkeye122]

Second, the way I see it, your choice reveals that you really consider creature comforts and ride quality more important than performance or the experience of driving the car.

Except I didn't make a choice. This was the car given to me. My family has owned it since it was new. My mother isn't really a car person, so she picked the best value for money new car of the time(Her words, not mine)

The fact that I drive a Camry doesn't make me less of a car guy.

I actually Autocross in H Stock, because I like Motorsport and that's what I can afford. Do you do any organized racing?

Mine is the 4 cylinder, but 3rd gear gives me plenty of torque between 45 and 70. I can make passes just fine.

 

[Wolfe]

@hawkeye122 -- I was about to explain to W&N how you didn't choose the Camry. One wonders how he ended up with his Sunbird -- surely he could have bought a cheap V8-powered something or other for what it cost to buy his "rust free" specimen, if he picked it out himself. Considering how much of a sin he thinks it is to drive something un-fun, it's a mystery that he would choose a car that "wasn't intended to be fun," in his own words.

He obviously missed the point earlier when I explained how you and him are kind of in the same boat; driving something that won't let you down until you can afford something more enthusiastic. It's like he forgot you were asking about trading for the fastest/sportiest E36 after the M3. Obviously you don't care one bit about performance or driving for fun.

 

[niky]

A manual probably wouldn't make that much difference, and no manual was indexed.

I thought you knew your cars? Or were supposed to know them well enough to know how big of a difference there is between a slushbox and a stick in 0-60 times. A Camry I4 with a stick will do 60 in under 9 seconds if you're willing to roast the tires. Which is a pre-requisite to get a Sunbird anywhere close to 8.

First, that speed isn't exactly inconsequential. When you're trying to pass a Subaru wagon doing 35 in a 55MPH area and oncoming traffic is threatening to lock up a rare passing area, you'll wish you had more of it.

Second, the way I see it, your choice reveals that you really consider creature comforts and ride quality more important than performance or the experience of driving the car.

Firstly, a Camry has no problem passing cars doing 35... especially not compared to a Sunbird.

Secondly, if you're not hunched over a sports bike, sweating like a pig in full body armor and leathers, or driving something like a Super Seven clone, then your choice reveals that you really consider creature comforts and ride quality more important than performance or the experience of driving the car.

I mean seriously... you have a working radio and standard (non-rock-hard racing) seats. What's wrong with you? WHY ARE YOU COMPROMISING YOUR PRINCIPLES?!?

 

[Joel]

I don't think he really appreciates the real world in all honesty. His comment about a car while you're in college says it all really, it's directed at people like me having the audacity to call themselves car enthusiasts while driving a Corolla.

If I lived at home with my parents and wasn't going to school, I'd have a fun car. Insurance where I live is insane for any car, let alone if I were driving something W&N approved. Instead I'm paying 5 figures to go to school, and I don't have money to piss away on a car to tool around in.

All he shows is he has his little box to put everyone in and if you're outside of it you're a problem. I mean, this guy actually believes he bought a fun and engaging mid 90's Sunbird. He argues about crappy economy cars while driving an even crappier economy car. He actually and completely believes a 3.1L V6 means he knows more about cars than all the liberal sheep driving their 4 cylinders to Starbucks.

 

[Joey D]

If you think W&N has a grasp on the real world, you're gonna have a bad time.

 

[Kent]

I think the sad part is that w&n has the right attitude about ownership in general but is totally in the wrong understanding and application of the idea.
It's awesome to be an enthusiast and to appreciate both the drive and car but not to disrespect others doing the same thing.
We all have to face this unless we own a veyron and even then there are legit complaints that can be made, even then the complaints aren't necessary.
W&N completely ignored my last post so I know he/she understood the above concept, I just wish we could move on and get back to what a bad idea a heavily used BMW is compared to a lightly used Camy.

Btw sorry bad editing, tablet at 4am

 

[Mikeybc]

Really not much else to say regarding the OP's question. He made his decision.

 

[Dennisch]

This thread has turned into one of the stupidest threads/discussions of the year.

 

[Wolfe]

At least this tired old topic of derailment was almost relevant to the thread subject, for once.

 

[Roger the Horse]

Yeah, the one thing my car is missing is an obnoxious touch screen sitting in the middle of the dash. Being able to change radio stations without taking my eyes off the road is so annoying.

If there's one bad thing about the Prius, I'd have to say that is it. The radio is a bit of a pain. The CD changer's pretty cool though, especially if you can't remember what's in it. The other day I was delighted by an unexpected burst of Neil Young.

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

Stick with the Camry. Especially since you are about to drive in the winter.