BOP update
- Thread starter BarryB
- 73 comments
- 4,800 views
- 1,056
- Braga, Portugal
- pedrocor
Absolutelly
Maybe a better example than BTCC cars are the TCR cars, which are closer to standard cars and less expensive than most of the GT4 models available:
British GT at Spa: GT4 pole: 2:32.191, McLaren 570S GT4 RWD
TCR Series at Spa: pole: 2:30.794 Audi A3 TCR FWD
Of course, it has to do with the tires, the GT4 has to a race more than twice the extension of a TCR race.
But a FWD can be fast, specially when you don't have tire wear to deal with it. Also the Audi is 170kg lighter, but has 100 hp less.
- 105
- South West
I'm not sure it's reasonable that a Megane FWD car with a 4 cylinder engine with around 275BHP before it is tuned for racing (fictional or not) can end up producing more power and end up out dragging a V10 with 650BHP before race tuning. Tuning that has actually had to slow it down
And that that doesn't point to a imbalance in the BOP?
Just my opinion though
- 1,947
- Cotswolds, UK
- doc-shipman
In theory it shouldn't matter if one car is superior to the other - unless you are at the VERY top of all the leader boards.
The reason being is that GT Sport should match you with people of a similar pace, regardless of the car that they're driving. Whether it is or not is a different question, but I would bet good money that there are people winning in the 'nerfed' cars because of the groupings that the game has put them in. OK, they may never be the #1 spot on the global rankings, but it doesn't mean you have to dump a car you enjoy to shave half a second of a lap.
This is, afterall, a game and is designed to be enjoyable. I drive the Aston Gr.4 car as I enjoy it the most. I'm quicker in the Subaru, but it's not as fun, so I don't drive it.
The reason being is that GT Sport should match you with people of a similar pace, regardless of the car that they're driving. Whether it is or not is a different question, but I would bet good money that there are people winning in the 'nerfed' cars because of the groupings that the game has put them in. OK, they may never be the #1 spot on the global rankings, but it doesn't mean you have to dump a car you enjoy to shave half a second of a lap.
This is, afterall, a game and is designed to be enjoyable. I drive the Aston Gr.4 car as I enjoy it the most. I'm quicker in the Subaru, but it's not as fun, so I don't drive it.
- 11,303
- Sweden
- eran0004
I'm not sure it's reasonable that a Megane FWD car with a 4 cylinder engine with around 275BHP before it is tuned for racing (fictional or not) can end up producing more power and end up out dragging a V10 with 650BHP before race tuning. Tuning that has actually had to slow it down
And that that doesn't point to a imbalance in the BOP?
Just my opinion though
What makes you think that the Viper gets to keep its 650 BHP?
Edit: Checked the stats. The Megane has 350 BHP and the Viper has 430. The Viper is much heavier though, at 1400 kg compared to the 1100 kg of the Megane, so the Megane has a better power to weight ratio. So that explains why it can overtake the Viper going up a hill. The Viper should have better acceleration at high speeds though, provided that its aerodynamic drag isn't much worse than the Megane's.
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- 1,947
- Cotswolds, UK
- doc-shipman
No, not last night, but the other times that I've raced on dailies etc. I've raced in the Aston, start position varies greatly and I often finish on the podium - I am far from the fastest driver on the planet.
Unless something has drastically changed, then what does it matter. There are people driving the Beetle because "It's the fastest" when their driving skills are far from it.
If my quali time is 2:00.000 (example) and their is 2:01.000 in the Beetle, that doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to get tanked on track. In the real world different cars have different strengths. I'm not saying the BOP couldn't be improved upon, but as stated in my previous post - I drive the Aston because I enjoy it. I also enjoy some good, close racing. If they pull away on the straights, but I catch them in the twisties then that's the way the cookie crumbles.
Unless something has drastically changed, then what does it matter. There are people driving the Beetle because "It's the fastest" when their driving skills are far from it.
If my quali time is 2:00.000 (example) and their is 2:01.000 in the Beetle, that doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to get tanked on track. In the real world different cars have different strengths. I'm not saying the BOP couldn't be improved upon, but as stated in my previous post - I drive the Aston because I enjoy it. I also enjoy some good, close racing. If they pull away on the straights, but I catch them in the twisties then that's the way the cookie crumbles.
- 1,056
- Braga, Portugal
- pedrocor
I agree the road car being far superior or not being irrelevant. The examples of BTCC, TCR and GT4 have shown that it's irrelevant sometimes in motor racing too.
The problem of matching pace of opponents is that, because the number of places you gain through the race affects your DR, some people don't put an effort on qualifying. On the race, if they are faster, not a funny race to the people that fought hard on qualifying, if not, they just keep on the back of the field, to assure a clean race and gain points on SR rating.
- 574
- Daytona Beach
- sloppysmusic
- 1,947
- Cotswolds, UK
- doc-shipman
PD can't really do much about people playing the system in that way, sadly. But generally I find that I am usually fighting it out with one or two cars (whether that's at the front or back of the pack as a whole) and that's what I enjoy. The sense of achievement when I 'win' my little battle - even if I finish 10th - is really exhilarating. Maybe I'm just a lot less ambitious than other people playing this game, but if you absolutely HAVE to be in 1st place 100% of the time then I doubt you're having as much fun and I imagine you're getting quite frustrated with GT Sport as a whole.
EDIT: Not strictly true, as they could have a qualifying lobby which then leads straight in to the race without the ability to change car etc. but there is nothing stopping you from not entering a quali time. But such is life. My point still stands - the thrill is the racing for me, not necessarily the out-right winning.
This doesn't mean I don't enjoy winning, but if it doesn't happen I just jump back in and try racing again.
EDIT: Not strictly true, as they could have a qualifying lobby which then leads straight in to the race without the ability to change car etc. but there is nothing stopping you from not entering a quali time. But such is life. My point still stands - the thrill is the racing for me, not necessarily the out-right winning.
This doesn't mean I don't enjoy winning, but if it doesn't happen I just jump back in and try racing again.
- 105
- South West
I think if people want to sandbag a time or use a slower car in a practice session to get grouped with slower drivers knowing they can walk it in the race for an easy win, then there is nothing anybody can do to stop that unfortunately. This problem disappears when you approach the top 10 times though because it would be rare for somebody to be grouped with mostly top 10 and still have .5 of a second per lap to just drive away.
- 2,677
- UK
- Outspacer
Well I'm sorry to tell you that something has drastically changed, the grip levels, benefitting some cars much more than others, mainly the FF. The Scirocco is the king of Gr4 to the extent that I doubt we'll see another Gr4 daily race until PD fix the balance. I used to enjoy the 458 - not the fastest for quali, but good and nimble in a race, and often good for gaining a few places. Last night I had no chance, even a muppet could drive the Scirocco faster than I could the 458, and 75% of people were using it. Gave up and switched to it - faster by 3 secs.
I know might sound like I'm exaggerating, but honestly I'm not. Count yourself lucky to have missed last night's daily!
- 11,303
- Sweden
- eran0004
That's exactly how balance of performance works. Check this article, for instance:
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/cars/srt-viper-gts-r/
- 1,056
- Braga, Portugal
- pedrocor
Just drive slowly. Or not scoring a time at all.
But not implying PD can do anything about it. Just, as it can be flawed, not considering positions gains to DR (not sure it matters, only many people stating it does).
For me, try to qualify as fast as possible to start the most in the front of the race I can, trying to void being bumped.
- 369
- Ohio
I agree here. The matchmaking seems to be using SR/DR exclusively. Factoring in qualifying times would make more competitive fields.
I was in a daily last night GR3 at Nürburgring GP. I’m a consistent B/S driver. I was matched in a race with guys like Z28 and qwbufp who had Q times 4 seconds faster.
I started in 13th and finished 11th. But racing for those 2 spots was intense and fun. Races where everyone is fast and mistakes cost you the race are where it’s at. The only reason I gained and kept those spot is because I didn’t make anything other than a minor mistake and the other guys did.
If you feel you always have to finish 1st, online racing probably isn’t for you.
Edit: I also don’t recall seeing a single Beetle in the race for once. The winner was driving the BMW Z4, 2nd was the Porsche, 3rd I think was an M6 (I think). qwbufp finished 4th in a WRX I believe.
- 358
- CA
- Z-Crazy
I'm ok with giving the FWD cars a horsepower advantage, but there's simply no way they should turn as well as they do... physics dictate that in the real world. PD tried to address corner exit acceleration issues with FWD cars, but I think it's still way off. Until they do something, the FWD cars will dominate GR. 4.
I was 2 seconds a lap faster on my first flier in the VW on yesterday's Daily Race.
I was 2 seconds a lap faster on my first flier in the VW on yesterday's Daily Race.
- 105
- South West
I understand how it works. What I'm saying is that the balance isn't right in my opinion. I think we could agree that If you left the cars untouched the Viper would be quicker and so there is a need to balance the performance so the cars can compete as equally as possible. Same as with most cars in the GR.4 class.
So I suppose in essence all I'm saying is that if after the balancing, the Megane actually ends up a lot faster than the viper then the balance isn't right.
The good thing is, you won't get many points if you're much better rated than the competition, which would be the case in your example. That's how an ELO system works.
I have to assume the DR rating is the most important for these try-hard people and hopefully that will deter them from using such a cheap trick. They will never see DR A this way...
- 297
- United Kingdom
- 11,303
- Sweden
- eran0004
But the cars aren't left untouched, so the stock performance is irrelevant.
And you can't judge BoP based on one specific situation (acceleration uphill), you need to look on the overall performance. The Viper has a slightly lower power to weight ratio, but more power than the Megane, so in theory it should have better acceleration at high speeds.
- 105
- South West
I'm not trying to argue here. I said IF the stock performance was left as part of an example. The stock performance of different cars is the whole reason why a BOP is needed for competitive classes, so it isn't irrelevant.
I think we should agree to disagree here because I simply don't think it is right that the Meganes and Sciroccos are much faster over a lap than the likes of a 458 or Viper or similar and I think that this is down to the BOP adjustments being not quite right.
- 11,303
- Sweden
- eran0004
It is irrelevant when you argue that the stock Viper has a 650 BHP V10, and that it's the reason why the 4-cylinder Megane shouldn't be able to overtake it going up a hill. Given that the Viper Gr.4 has more power than the Megane Gr.4 it's actually fair that the Viper has a slightly worse power-to-weight ratio, since the additional power gives it an advantage when it comes to fighting the forces of aerodynamic drag. From that perspective the Megane should have better acceleration at low speeds, since that gives both cars a strength and a weakness. The importance of these strengths/weaknesses varies depending on the type of track. On some tracks the speed stays fairly low, and then the Megane has clear advantage. On other tracks, where the speed is higher, the Viper will have the edge. Circuit de la Sarthe - although it's not in the game yet - is a perfect example of a track where the Viper would probably outrun the Megane.
I think we should agree to disagree here because I simply don't think it is right that the Meganes and Sciroccos are much faster over a lap than the likes of a 458 or Viper or similar and I think that this is down to the BOP adjustments being not quite right.
It depends on how much faster they are over a race, and if they're consistently faster on all tracks, or just on some tracks. Performance is usually not identical in real life racing either, you just have to work with whatever strength and weaknesses your car happens to have. And if some cars are consistently faster on most tracks they will probably have their BoP adjusted, sooner or later.
- 379
- chelmsford uk
- turboracer 48
I'm not trying to argue here. I said IF the stock performance was left as part of an example. The stock performance of different cars is the whole reason why a BOP is needed for competitive classes, so it isn't irrelevant.
I think we should agree to disagree here because I simply don't think it is right that the Meganes and Sciroccos are much faster over a lap than the likes of a 458 or Viper or similar and I think that this is down to the BOP adjustments being not quite right.
PD will be looking at BOP over the whole range of tracks in the game not one track, corner or race. Staying with BTCC as an example FWD are know to have an advantage on some tracks whilst RWD have it on others. BOP is not easy to get right even in real world motor racing as shown by apparent Le Mans sandbags and again in BTCC there are complaints and it changes over the season.
BTW for anyone in UK highly recommend ITV 4 coverage of BTCC. Six hours+ of live racing on a Sunday (April to November) with support races including Ginetta, Porsche and Fomula Four. Record it and watch it in chunks when you can....
- 12
- United States
- djhedges
In real life it depends on the racing organization. SCCA for example
B. YELLOW FLAG (Solid Yellow)
STANDING YELLOW – Take care, Danger, Slow Down, NO PASSING FROM THE FLAG until past the emer- gency area.
WAVED – Great Danger, Slow Down, be prepared to stop – NO PASSING FROM THE FLAG until past the emergency area. DOUBLE YELLOW, DISPLAYED AT ALL STATIONS – Indicates the entire course is under yellow (full course yellow). All stations will display double yellow flags for all pace and safety car laps. SLOW DOWN, NO PASSING. However, cars may carefully pass emergency vehicles and other cars that are disabled or off pace (see 6.6.2.).
In the first video I'm pretty sure a corner worker would call ya in for passing under yellow. Which would lead to a black flag and you having to pit in and talk to race stewart. In real life once you've passed the incident or can see there's no flag at the next turn station then you're free to pass.
I welcome the yellow flags in GT Sport. I've lost a few places having to lift and avoid the guy in front of me from spinning.
B. YELLOW FLAG (Solid Yellow)
STANDING YELLOW – Take care, Danger, Slow Down, NO PASSING FROM THE FLAG until past the emer- gency area.
WAVED – Great Danger, Slow Down, be prepared to stop – NO PASSING FROM THE FLAG until past the emergency area. DOUBLE YELLOW, DISPLAYED AT ALL STATIONS – Indicates the entire course is under yellow (full course yellow). All stations will display double yellow flags for all pace and safety car laps. SLOW DOWN, NO PASSING. However, cars may carefully pass emergency vehicles and other cars that are disabled or off pace (see 6.6.2.).
In the first video I'm pretty sure a corner worker would call ya in for passing under yellow. Which would lead to a black flag and you having to pit in and talk to race stewart. In real life once you've passed the incident or can see there's no flag at the next turn station then you're free to pass.
I welcome the yellow flags in GT Sport. I've lost a few places having to lift and avoid the guy in front of me from spinning.
