Brexit - The UK leaves the EU

[Lizard]

Since I am a little confused. What were the 2 votes tonight?

1 was to reject a no deal. Voted in favour of rejecting no deal.

What was the other vote?

 

[PzR Slim]

Since I am a little confused. What were the 2 votes tonight?

1 was to reject a no deal. Voted in favour of rejecting no deal.

What was the other vote?

There was a vote on an amendment to the original motion but forward by Yvette Cooper after its original sponsor pulled out. Then a vote on the 'Malthouse' amendment and finally a vote on the amended original motion.

 

[Lizard]

There was a vote on an amendment to the original motion but forward by Yvette Cooper after its original sponsor pulled out. Then a vote on the 'Malthouse' amendment and finally a vote on the amended original motion.

And those amendments were?

 

[PzR Slim]

And those amendments were?

The first was 'not leave the EU without a deal under any circumstances' rather than just 'on the 29th March' as stated in the original motion. The Malthouse amendment called for a delay to leaving until 22 May to give time to leave without a deal.

The first amendment was passed with a majority of 4 votes. Malthouse was heavily defeated and the amended original motion passed with several Tory MP's breaking a three line whip after May promised a free vote last night.

 

[Touring Mars]

The first was 'not leave the EU without a deal under any circumstances' rather than just 'on the 29th March' as stated in the original motion. The Malthouse amendment called for a delay to leaving until 22 May to give time to leave without a deal.

The Malthouse amendment also proposed the idea that the EU and UK could agree a replacement for the transition period insomuch as there would be a 'standstill' on trading arrangements until a trade deal was agreed in the future... but the EU would not have agreed to that anyway, so it was a bit pointless.

 

[Milouse]

Tonight's main motion suggests that Parliament will not accept a No Deal Brexit on 29th March. An amendment has just been voted on suggesting that the same is true of any other day... and passed. Parliament has said it will not accept a No Deal Brexit at any time. That's pretty big news and seemingly quite a surprise to the front bench.

As this MP said today in the Commons, quoting a Dutch politician:
This vote is like "the Tinanic voting for the iceberg to go away"

He spoke a lot, and i found him sharp, who's that man?

 

[Lizard]

The first was 'not leave the EU without a deal under any circumstances' rather than just 'on the 29th March' as stated in the original motion. The Malthouse amendment called for a delay to leaving until 22 May to give time to leave without a deal.

The first amendment was passed with a majority of 4 votes. Malthouse was heavily defeated and the amended original motion passed with several Tory MP's breaking a three line whip after May promised a free vote last night.

Yes I remember quite clearly her saying it would be a free vote.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Yes I remember quite clearly her saying it would be a free vote.

The original motion said no to No Deal On 29th March... but the amendment that was passed a few minutes before the main vote broadened that to any date. At that point it seems panic set in and the whip was set... and quite a few people disobeyed it.

 

[Lizard]

Oh Theresa lied again.

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/n...KUxemuiJWlu8EnQnUh2FfEyx7XfibWpiJ8lSh8NRpUGiY

 

[Robin]

She has a right to change her vote because as has been stated the terms of her motion were altered minutes before the vote. Why should she side with something she didn't propose exactly as she proposed it!

 

[Lizard]

She has a right to change her vote because as has been stated the terms of her motion were altered minutes before the vote. Why should she side with something she didn't propose exactly as she proposed it!

True I guess. Still doesn't excuse the whip though.

 

[Tired Tyres]

If MP’s have rejected No Deal and The Deal, then surely this only ends with no Brexit?

No. This was an arse covering vote so when we leave with no deal, they'll be able to point to a vote and say "it wasn't my fault".

We leave on the 29th unless the EU grants an extension.

 

[Liquid]

As it stands there is no plan on what to do with an extension other than kick the can down the road so it's pointless anyway.

It would allow me to exchange my driving licence for a Slovak one on 11th June.

 

[baldgye]

We leave on the 29th unless the EU grants an extension

We have the power to call the whole thing off without the EU, I agree that by default we would leave with no deal. But Parliament has just voted not to do that and voted twice not to agree to the only deal. What good would an extension even do?

 

[Touring Mars]

The original motion said no to No Deal On 29th March... but the amendment that was passed a few minutes before the main vote broadened that to any date. At that point it seems panic set in and the whip was set... and quite a few people disobeyed it.

Indeed, but there was some debate about whether MPs knew the 3-line whip had been imposed before they voted...

But even if they did know, there's nothing the PM/Cabinet can do about it, given the seniority of those who voted against the whip - the Father of the House and the longest serving sitting MP, Ken Clarke, for one... Dominic Grieve was another - and not to mention 4 members of May's Cabinet. These are not mere 'rebels', but a sure sign that May has lost her authority.

-

Meanwhile, the EU has backed a plan for yet another 'Meaningful Vote' to be held next week... however the irony of calling it a 'Meaningful Vote' is becoming greater by the day as it becomes more and more apparent that the vote will be held again and again until MPs vote 'the right way'... where have we heard that before?!

The only possible way that May's deal will go through is if Labour drop their opposition to it, which seems unlikely - but perhaps faced with the threat of an accidental No Deal, it might just go through... as I said yesterday, watch for the EU to make extension of Article 50 conditional upon the Withdrawal Agreement being voted for. This could also make the decision to revoke Article 50 much easier/more likely.

 

[Tired Tyres]

We have the power to call the whole thing off without the EU, I agree that by default we would leave with no deal. But Parliament has just voted not to do that and voted twice not to agree to the only deal. What good would an extension even do?

I know. I've covered that in a previous post. 29th we leave. Unless there's a time extension that moves the date. The only other options is to retract Article 50 or vote for the May deal a third time.

Last night was like voting not to let the tide come in. It was the definition of meaningless.

 

[baldgye]

I know. I've covered that in a previous post. 29th we leave. Unless there's a time extension that moves the date. The only other options is to retract Article 50 or vote for the May deal a third time.

Last night was like voting not to let the tide come in. It was the definition of meaningless.

Was it really meaningless, doesn't it create a mandate for Parliament to either agree to The Deal or to agree to withdraw Art.50?

Extension or not the EU haven't changed their terms and have made it clear they wont. MP's have agreed they don't want No Deal (for second time I think?), so that means they now agree to the deal they've already rejected twice, or agree to cancel this whole thing?

 

[TenEightyOne]

Last night was like voting not to let the tide come in. It was the definition of meaningless.

However, the function of such motions and their amendments is to give a view of parliament's position. It's then up to the legislators to interpret their mandate. It's a bit like holding a public vote - it can be non-binding but still create a mandate for action.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Was it really meaningless, doesn't it create a mandate for Parliament to either agree to The Deal or to agree to withdraw Art.50?

Extension or not the EU haven't changed their terms and have made it clear they wont. MP's have agreed they don't want No Deal (for second time I think?), so that means they now agree to the deal they've already rejected twice, or agree to cancel this whole thing?

It creates NOTHING except a way for a politician, in the event of hard brexit, being able to say. "It wasn't my fault."

If they don't vote for the deal, and the EU have stated that there are no changes possible - so you can see how likely that is - then it will be hard brexit unless they retract Article 50. An option they have had since the EU clarification that we can.

Anything else, at all, is truly meaningless as asking the tide not to come in.

What we can do is email our MP's and request they raise the possibility of retraction on the last day it is possible for Parliament to act before the 29th. Not saying that would work but it is several levels of meaningfulness above what they voted for last evening.

 

[baldgye]

However, the function of such motions and their amendments is to give a view of parliament's position. It's then up to the legislators to interpret their mandate. It's a bit like holding a public vote - it can be non-binding but still create a mandate for action.

This was my basic understanding of the vote.
Given how chaotic Parliament is, I would imagine that if she tried to push the No Deal outcome there would be another vote of no-confidence in her (this time passing), the Tory Party would collapse as would Labour.
An extension would be granted (on the basis that we need a government and the EU still want the best deal (be that us remaining or taking the deal on the table)) and we would probably end up in the same position a years time but now it would be out of the control of the people currently in government.

 

[Liquid]

The irony shouldn't be lost, of course, in that a second referendum is a treacherous impossibility because you cannot keep going back to the well and voting until you get what you want. However this is what, the second or third vote on a deal in three months in the parliament?

Also, from a slightly more personal, tangible perspective, the margin of majority was four votes. Plaid Cymru has 4 MPs; don't let it be said that voting non-Tory/Labour is worthless.

 

[eran0004]

The irony shouldn't be lost, of course, in that a second referendum is a treacherous impossibility because you cannot keep going back to the well and voting until you get what you want. However this is what, the second or third vote on a deal in three months in the parliament?

Also, from a slightly more personal, tangible perspective, the margin of majority was four votes. Plaid Cymru has 4 MPs; don't let it be said that voting non-Tory/Labour is worthless.

Maybe the keyword is you? YOU cannot vote until you get what you want, but WE can

 

[DK]

Labour have whipped their MPs to abstain from a vote on a motion to seek an extension to Article 50, with People's Vote claiming that it didn't guarantee a 2nd referendum anyway.

 

[TenEightyOne]

MPs have voted to extend Article 50 beyond March. The earlier amendment that would effectively have stated Parliament's desire for a second referendum was soundly defeated. Some feel that the amendment was moved too early and that it may come again. Not Rees-Mogg though, and he knows what he's talking about after 1,200 years of politics.

 

[mustafur]

UK needs another election, if Parliament can't pass anything they have outlived their usefulness.

 

[Touring Mars]

Great summary of tonight's vote(s) on a second referendum from the Telegraph:

Supporters of a second vote who didn’t vote for a second vote were even supported by the official campaign for a second vote, which urged supporters of a second vote not to vote on a second vote just yet. Having lost the vote on a second vote, however, supporters of a second vote now want a second vote on a second vote. And next time, they may even vote for it.

 

[adamp93]

Don't worry everyone, it's nearly over.

 

[Blitz24]

UK needs another election, if Parliament can't pass anything they have outlived their usefulness.

Nah, it means they are getting ready to evolve into their next evolution, the United Nations.

 

[MatskiMonk]

... I can't .. stop ... refreshing .. the BBC news comments ... feed ...

 

[Hun200kmh]

Great summary of tonight's vote(s) on a second referendum from the Telegraph:

I find it lame to make fun of second votes, especially when the WA is going for its ... third!