Brexit - The UK leaves the EU

[Tired Tyres]

What’s a rasist?

Android spell check when trying to make a poor taste joke too early in the morning.

 

[baldgye]

So the last few days have been a bit wild, so here is a catch-up (Sorry if some of this is wrong, please correct me);

• Online parliamentary petition becomes fastest signed and most signed petition the services has seen. Currently at just under 5 million signatures.
• A march in London for a second vote attracted over a million people.
• Nigel Farage launched his pro-Brexit march that would stretch the whole country. He will not be partaking in the whole march, which has attracted a few hundred people.
• The PM made it clear that after her deal was voted against for a second time, no deal would happen if her deal wasn’t agreed by parliament.
• The EU gave two extensions (based around EU elections) to allow May to try and get her deal through. After it became clear that she’d be willing to have no-deal Brexit happen.
• There now seems to be a political coup going on to replace the Prime Minister. We could have a new PM within the next two weeks.

Last year ITV did a roundup of online petitions and what came of them, which makes for interesting reading; https://www.itv.com/news/2017-01-31...e-10-most-signed-and-what-have-they-achieved/

But I think it’s important to note that the current government is seemingly a state of imminent collapse, the like of which I’ve never experienced in my life.

 

[Robin]

This belief you have that the march was largely made up of foreign nationals is, on reflection, one of the most Brexit things I've heard. Perhaps it's too difficult to accept that British people travelled from across Britain to protest at one of the most important times in living political memory?

One of the most Brexit things you've heard? Have you not heard all the stuff assumed about Leavers for the past 2 years?

Look at the nonsense placards in that march alone... childish.

 

[Tired Tyres]

So the last few days have been a bit wild, so here is a catch-up (Sorry if some of this is wrong, please correct me);

• Online parliamentary petition becomes fastest signed and most signed petition the services has seen. Currently at just under 5 million signatures.
• A march in London for a second vote attracted over a million people.
• Nigel Farage launched his pro-Brexit march that would stretch the whole country. He will not be partaking in the whole march, which has attracted a few hundred people.
• The PM made it clear that after her deal was voted against for a second time, no deal would happen if her deal wasn’t agreed by parliament.
• The EU gave two extensions (based around EU elections) to allow May to try and get her deal through. After it became clear that she’d be willing to have no-deal Brexit happen.
• There now seems to be a political coup going on to replace the Prime Minister. We could have a new PM within the next two weeks.

Last year ITV did a roundup of online petitions and what came of them, which makes for interesting reading; https://www.itv.com/news/2017-01-31...e-10-most-signed-and-what-have-they-achieved/

But I think it’s important to note that the current government is seemingly a state of imminent collapse, the like of which I’ve never experienced in my life.

It's been in an imminent state of collapse since May's General Election removed the Conservative majority. I suspect she hasn't been removed because A. She's the nominated fall gal, or B. No one else is certifiable enough to want the job.

 

[PzR Slim]

One of the most Brexit things you've heard? Have you not heard all the stuff assumed about Leavers for the past 2 years?

Look at the nonsense placards in that march alone... childish.

There’s is a big difference between childish and wilfully ignorant & deceitful, no?

 

[TenEightyOne]

IBS is echoing these comments too - this is a bad time for them to forget that parliament IS sovereign and that the prime party just gets to write the bills.

 

[baldgye]

IBS is echoing these comments too - this is a bad time for them to forget that parliament IS sovereign and that the prime party just gets to write the bills.

The PM is seemingly trying to use the threat of a GE to stem the bleeding...

...non of this, of course would be happening if ‘benefits’ of Brexit weren’t a catastrophic lie.

 

[Tired Tyres]

The PM is seemingly trying to use the threat of a GE to stem the bleeding...

...non of this, of course would be happening if ‘benefits’ of Brexit weren’t a catastrophic lie.

Lies? We pay the EU a LOT of money for membership. That wasn't a lie. We can't negotiate tariff free trade deals with anyone outside the EU. That wasn't a lie. Can't think of anything else that wouldn't be covered by opinion.

 

[Robin]

There’s is a big difference between childish and wilfully ignorant & deceitful, no?

Actually no, because whether something is offensive or not is relative. It can be both childish and ignorant.

 

[UKMikey]

To try and pretend that the majority of millions of protesters are really continental Europeans sounds as childish and ignorant as anything I've heard during this debate.

Unlike the supposed slights on Leavers, I don't have to scour news items and photos to try and find such a statement as it was made right here.

 

[baldgye]

Lies? We pay the EU a LOT of money for membership. That wasn't a lie. We can't negotiate tariff free trade deals with anyone outside the EU. That wasn't a lie. Can't think of anything else that wouldn't be covered by opinion.

We also get a lot back from the EU.

The fundamental lie was that without the EU we would be better off and that leaving would be easy as we’re so powerful.

Neither of these things are/were true. If they were we’d already have a deal agreed by parliament that benefited us.
As it is the only deal we have is one that makes us worse off and that will probably reignite one of the darkest times in recent mainland British history.

 

[Robin]

To try and pretend that the majority of millions of protesters are really continental Europeans sounds as childish and ignorant as anything I've heard during this debate.

Unlike the supposed slights on Leavers, I don't have to scour news items and photos to try and find such a statement as it was made right here.

Just an example directed at me in this thread...

I've actually wasted 2-3 hours typing out paragraphs in response to this, but I used the word **** a lot and called you an empowered English gammon wanker (though only by extension) ...

And you even liked the post

 

[Tired Tyres]

We also get a lot back from the EU.

The fundamental lie was that without the EU we would be better off and that leaving would be easy as we’re so powerful.

Neither of these things are/were true. If they were we’d already have a deal agreed by parliament that benefited us.
As it is the only deal we have is one that makes us worse off and that will probably reignite one of the darkest times in recent mainland British history.

Yes we do but even the EU when asked about the amount on the bus they didn't deny it. They did say it didn't include the rebate.

Being better offer is subjective. Banking on future trade deals is a reasonable stance. Then again saying that we would be better off staying in the EU is subjective as well. We can't know if the other way would be better. Once we've made our bed and no one would be asking at that point anyway. Remember Osbourne and his emergency draconian budget? Didn't turn out that way. Lot's of "the sky will fall in" things from Remain and mysteriously not happening at all. Neither side had a chance encounter with someone called "The Truth"

Leaving quickly is possible. Leaving quickly with a deal is not.

There is not a snowball chance in hell of us getting a positive economic deal under any circumstance due to the fear of giving others the idea.

 

[MatskiMonk]

We can't negotiate tariff free trade deals with anyone outside the EU. That wasn't a lie.

Realistically, that's a feature, not a benefit since we couldn't reasonably know when being sold that promise, that we would be better off. Promises like that are political snake oil.

Just an example directed at me in this thread...

I stand by that If you don't want people to think you're a racist, stop saying stuff a racist would say.

edit: also for the sake of context... the other half of the sentence you chopped off, was..

which I accept probably isn't fair or true and have decided not to post

 

[baldgye]

Yes we do but even the EU when asked about the amount on the bus they didn't deny it. They did say it didn't include the rebate.

Being better offer is subjective. Banking on future trade deals is a reasonable stance. Then again saying that we would be better off staying in the EU is subjective as well. We can't know if the other way would be better. Once we've made our bed and no one would be asking at that point anyway. Remember Osbourne and his emergency draconian budget? Didn't turn out that way. Lot's of "the sky will fall in" things from Remain and mysteriously not happening at all. Neither side had a chance encounter with someone called "The Truth"

Leaving quickly is possible. Leaving quickly with a deal is not.

There is not a snowball chance in hell of us getting a positive economic deal under any circumstance due to the fear of giving others the idea.

The last paragraph is the most pertinent.

While the sky hasn’t fallen in the U.K. has lost already because of Brexit. Many financial institutions have moved, the economy has suffered and investment in manufacturing has taken a hit.

And of course this is ignoring the one thing that both remain and leave forgot about... Ireland.


If Brexit was a positive and the right decision, why did Leave focus on racist propaganda, islamaphobia and the labelling of real economic issues that leaving the EU would encur as ‘project fear’?

 

[Robin]

I stand by that If you don't want people to think you're a racist, stop saying stuff a racist would say.

Which goes to show you and your mates in this thread have selective hearing and zero credibility.

I actually considered reporting you for that initial post but you explained yourself which I accepted, but seeing as your 'standing by it' with your little smiley face maybe you should be called out. It's pathetic.

EDIT - And for 'the sake of context' you said what you said and openly admitted writing hours of abuse that you were going to direct at me.

 

[DK]

edit: also for the sake of context... the other half of the sentence you chopped off, was..

The gammon press would be proud of such quote-mining.

 

[UKMikey]

The gammon press would be proud of such quote-mining.

Selective hearing/reading and zero credibility springs to mind.

 

[baldgye]

As the government continues to implode, the chancellor now seems to think a second referendum would be a ‘coherent’ idea...


https://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entr...1ebeef10677b?ncid=APPLENEWS00001&guccounter=1

 

[PzR Slim]

Petition just went past the 5 million mark.

 

[baldgye]

Guys, I’ve done it! I’ve found positive pro-Brexit news!

If we do default and leave the bloc without a deal, then we won’t run out of medicine!!! I know it’s not quite what was on the side of the bus, but everyone knew we where just joking.... anyway I digress;



This is really fantastic news and goes to show the sad level reMOANERs will go to to try and destory democracy!

 

[PzR Slim]

Guys, I’ve done it! I’ve found positive pro-Brexit news!

If we do default and leave the bloc without a deal, then we won’t run out of medicine!!! I know it’s not quite what was on the side of the bus, but everyone knew we where just joking.... anyway I digress;



This is really fantastic news and goes to show the sad level reMOANERs will go to to try and destory democracy!

So that’s not running out of medicine and blue passports. Doesn’t sound quite so bad now I think about it!

 

[Tired Tyres]

The last paragraph is the most pertinent.

While the sky hasn’t fallen in the U.K. has lost already because of Brexit. Many financial institutions have moved, the economy has suffered and investment in manufacturing has taken a hit.

And of course this is ignoring the one thing that both remain and leave forgot about... Ireland.


If Brexit was a positive and the right decision, why did Leave focus on racist propaganda, islamaphobia and the labelling of real economic issues that leaving the EU would encur as ‘project fear’?

I don't recall any of that as I tend not to listen when either side starts making claims, but I'd imagine it would have ticked the box for a lot of people. Immigration is a very real issue in the North. It is what prompted people who have NEVER voted before to make it clear to the government that what they have done is not acceptable. As for Project Fear. That was the Remain stance from the beginning. I don't recall a single instance of anyone pointing out the positives of membership during the entire campaign. Having said that, I really didn't pay that much attention at the time on what was said/claimed/counterclaimed.

It was made clear by the EU that the financial clearing that was done in London would have to be done from within the EU. Anyone with two braincells or more could see what that would mean. Indeed that in itself is a solidly good reason to leave now anyway. We have lost too much though this process to stay in the EU now.

You can make just as good an argument that lack of investment is caused by the current "What the hell do we do now?" situation we have been in since the first May deal knock back. We got a significantly better deal than most thought possible but that wasn't enough for the same 650 MP's who had quite cheerfully voted for activation of article 50.

No one - not even the Northern Irish or Irish brought up the Northern Ireland situation at the time. It was a stunning oversight at the time for all concerned.

 

[Touring Mars]

Like most people, I didn't automatically go for one option in the EU referendum, but considered both sets of arguments. I don't think I was ever close to voting Leave, but I certainly understand the arguments against the EU that led to the referendum being called in the first place, and I don't believe that the UK's future inside the EU is a given, even if the result of the referendum had been different.

What I would say, however, is that if I had decided to vote Leave, I'd be extremely angry at anyone who tried to explain away my vote as if I was too stupid to have weighed up all the issues, claims and counter-claims for myself. Trying to second-guess the reasons why anyone voted in any particular direction is an exercise in futility - and yet, there is no shortage of people who seem to believe that their interpretation of other people's reasons for voting is more valid than other people's votes.

 

[Famine]

Guys, I’ve done it! I’ve found positive pro-Brexit news!

Isn't this just a bit circular?

Some hospitals warned that a no-deal Brexit could see them running out of medicine, which pro-Remain individuals pounced on as a negative of Brexit. The RCPCH says that we won't.

That's the pro-Remain "running out of medicine" scenario being ruled out as a Brexit negative by otherwise apolitical institutions, not a pro-Leave Brexit benefit. I don't know why pro-Remain Twitter commentators are suggesting that it's a Brexit benefit claimed by pro-Leave people...

It'd be quite like a general sending a memo to the DOD suggesting they were concerned that remaining in the EU will cause nuclear war with Russia, an expert institution saying "no, it won't" and then a rabid Brexiteer saying "Oh at last, a benefit to remain! It won't cause nuclear war! Whoop-de-doo!".


I'm also not sure what pro-Remain Twitter is doing by currently chortling itself inside out at placards and chants at the second referendum march yesterday* calling for Theresa May to **** herself/off and referring to certain politicians as ****s and tits, when it curdles into apoplexy and "is this the standard of debate now?" when any slight of any kind comes from the pro-Leave population towards it and pro-Remain politicians.

The extremists on both sides are frankly appalling.

No one - not even the Northern Irish or Irish brought up the Northern Ireland situation at the time. It was a stunning oversight at the time for all concerned.

Both the Irish and Northern Irish - and even the British - did bring it up at the time:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35502736

It just got lost in all the insults flung by both sides at each other.

*For all the "gammon" comments from remain towards leave, that march sure seemed to be very white, very middle-aged and very ABC1...

 

[PzR Slim]

Like most people, I didn't automatically go for one option in the EU referendum, but considered both sets of arguments. I don't think I was ever close to voting Leave, but I certainly understand the arguments against the EU that led to the referendum being called in the first place, and I don't believe that the UK's future inside the EU is a given, even if the result of the referendum had been different.

What I would say, however, is that if I had decided to vote Leave, I'd be extremely angry at anyone who tried to explain away my vote as if I was too stupid to have weighed up all the issues, claims and counter-claims for myself. Trying to second-guess the reasons why anyone voted in any particular direction is an exercise in futility - and yet, there is no shortage of people who seem to believe that their interpretation of other people's reasons for voting is more valid than other people's votes.

It’s quite easy to understand why a lot of people voted to leave. They plaster it all over social media, and for a great number of those people, their reasoning is so inept and incorrect that stupidity or gullibility can be the only cause. I don’t tar every person who voted leave with that brush.

 

[baldgye]

Isn't this just a bit circular?

Some hospitals warned that a no-deal Brexit could see them running out of medicine, which pro-Remain individuals pounced on as a negative of Brexit. The RCPCH says that we won't.

That's the pro-Remain "running out of medicine" scenario being ruled out as a Brexit negative by otherwise apolitical institutions, not a pro-Leave Brexit benefit. I don't know why pro-Remain Twitter commentators are suggesting that it's a Brexit benefit claimed by pro-Leave people...

It’s to point out that prior to the vote, Leave campaigners and politicians where making the 350m claim. Pushing the idea that the NHS would be better off with us outside the EU. It’s gone from that, to reassuring people we won’t run out of medicines...

The extremists on both sides are frankly appalling.

The extremist Remainers being people with rude placards? These people are as bad as the racist propaganda spread by the Leavers?*

Maybe I’m missing something?

*I guess it’s also worth reminding people of the huge spike in racist attacks and hate crimes following the result of the referendum. Racists felt empowered.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Guys, I’ve done it! I’ve found positive pro-Brexit news!

If we do default and leave the bloc without a deal, then we won’t run out of medicine!!! I know it’s not quite what was on the side of the bus, but everyone knew we where just joking.... anyway I digress;



This is really fantastic news and goes to show the sad level reMOANERs will go to to try and destory democracy!

As a second tier supplier to the NHS we've seen stockpiling equating to 18 weeks useage, it's caused no end of issues but has been the only way to mitigate usefully against Brexit since we can't pay wages with "there'll be no disruption", if there is disruption.

 

[Famine]

It’s to point out that prior to the vote, Leave campaigners and politicians where making the 350m claim. Pushing the idea that the NHS would be better off with us outside the EU. It’s gone from that, to reassuring people we won’t run out of medicines...

But again, it hasn't. The concept we might run out of some medicines was put forward by one professional body, and jumped on by certain media outlets as "Brexit will cause medicine shortages". The concept has now been rejected by another professional body, and now we're getting told, sarcastically, that at last Brexit sees benefits. It's a circular argument - those in favour of Brexit are being attacked for something they never claimed.

Have we run out of things that they did actually claim to deride?

The extremist Remainers being people with rude placards? These people are as bad as the racist propaganda spread by the Leavers?*

Anyone who believes in insulting people who do not share their point of view is a dreadful human being.

I guess it’s also worth reminding people of the huge spike in racist attacks and hate crimes following the result of the referendum. Racists felt empowered.

Perhaps if everyone stopped insulting each other and treated each other with basic human respect, no-one would feel like people who don't share their point of view are less than human and feel quite so justified in denying them human rights?

Radical concept, I know.

Incidentally, here's your huge spike:

Other nations have recorded the same trends - the USA and Canada included - and I'm somewhat unsure of the effect Brexit has had on that. But there's certainly a trans-Atlantic commonality in the rise of high-profile individuals who don't mind engaging in mud-slinging...

 

[baldgye]

Perhaps if everyone stopped insulting each other and treated each other with basic human respect, no-one would feel like people who don't share their point of view are less than human and feel quite so justified in denying them human rights?

Gotcha, so rude placards are just as bad as racism.

But again, it hasn't.

As a second tier supplier to the NHS we've seen stockpiling equating to 18 weeks useage, it's caused no end of issues but has been the only way to mitigate usefully against Brexit since we can't pay wages with "there'll be no disruption", if there is disruption.

Edit:

Incidentally, here's your huge spike:

Evidence to the contrary;
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018...e-referendum-even-allowing-for-other-factors/