Brexit - The UK leaves the EU

Deal or No Deal?

  • Voted Leave - May's Deal

  • Voted Leave - No Deal

  • Voted Leave - Second Referendum

  • Did not vote/abstained - May's Deal

  • Did not vote/abstained - No Deal

  • Did not vote/abstained - Second Referendum

  • Voted Remain - May's Deal

  • Voted Remain - No Deal

  • Voted Remain - Second Referendum


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While I think a certain amount of 'We told you so' is justified, and even necessary, this is definitely a fair point... indeed, one cannot expect to bridge a large divide by more divisiveness. That said, it does need to be a two way street, and I think the thing I would like to see is more people who voted Leave but now regret it not only making their voices heard, but doing something about it.

But I agree, things are not going to change in a hurry, so the opposite to what I want to see also needs to happen in the immediate future, which is that we just have to make the most of it and not waste too much time or energy on protesting a result that cannot be overturned.

I can certainly see a purpose in noting the effects of brexit as they happen, but if it's not done in an honest and impartial way then IMO it doesn't have much persuasiveness. Just as it's easy now to find horror stories of fish and meat rotting, it's as easy to have that dismissed as mere 'teething troubles'. For example most paperwork related problems will in time smooth out, become computerised, and fewer mistakes will be made. But there will still be a cost; there's obviously a downside to having paperwork, computerised or not, and costly mistakes will still be made sometimes. My opinion is that a tally of longer-term effects is more likely to change minds.

That said, I'm pretty sure any Leavers have left this thread already having got the result they wanted, so it's probably a moot point in that respect. I think all of us have no choice but to make the most of it, and part of that is assessing how things are going to be in whatever way we can find useful - this thread seems the right place to discuss that kind of stuff. I saw earlier that Nissan are staying, but haven't posted it because it deserves a roundup of the whole sector and I haven't had time to do a deep dive into it (the TL;DR is likely to be that the "55% local production" rule is key, but there are many other factors).
 
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BBC list out a few more cases of doorstep charges etc on deliveries from the EU, some with a little more breakdown.

But for this post I'm looking into Ellie and her coat, since enough was revealed in that article to find the retailer of said coat. That would be Scotch and Soda, with the page for the coat on their 'GB' site here:

scotchsodacoatgb.jpg

Added one to the cart, and on that page there were these clearly displayed comments under the total:
  • We ship throughout the United Kingdom
  • Please note orders will be shipped from the Netherlands
  • 60-day return guarantee
The Brexit banner takes you to a page which starts off with:
Brexit update

Please note orders will be shipped from the Netherlands

How do I pay the VAT?
The prices on the website are including VAT.

NOTE: At delivery, customs and import duties might be charged. Scotch & Soda is not responsible for these charges.

Why do I have to pay import duties or custom fees?

Since the United Kingdom left the European Union (01.01.2021) all shipments coming from outside the United Kingdom need to pay import duties and/or custom fees to import the goods into the United Kingdom.

... except it would seem the price for the coat did not include VAT - which would be correct, it shouldn't since it is over £135. However, an item less than £135 also didn't show "inc. VAT" next to its price, which it should have done (as it does on their NL site).

Overall as a first go at providing some heads up it's not terrible, but the information could definitely be improved on.

Anyway... Ooh! Bargain! Well, not if we look at their NL site...

scotchsodacoatnl.jpg

Riiight. Taking off the 21% NL VAT we get €123.94, then convert to GBP and it's £109.68. So they are already charging almost £65 more, before any VAT, duty and fees get charged on its way into the UK! Had they charged that fair price, along with some some postage and handling (even maybe a UK surcharge), and added the UK VAT on at their end, then the final all-inc delivered price would've been about £150-ish rather than £262.

I'd say poor Ellie got fleeced.
 
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I'd say poor Ellie got fleeced.
In this case it could easily be an honest mistake by the retailer, or an improperly configured part of the website not calculating things correctly. But at the same time I know nothing about this retailer or their reputation, so it's possible they've been using confusion with exchange rates to their advantage for a long time.

I feel like this is going to be a major point of contention over the next year or two, especially as the less-than-honest online retailers start actively trying to obscure that they're overcharging UK customers for things rather than just issuing the occasional refund when someone actually notices and files a complaint.
 
Riiight. Taking off the 21% NL VAT we get €123.94, then convert to GBP and it's £109.68. So they are already charging almost £65 more, before any VAT, duty and fees get charged on its way into the UK! Had they charged that fair price, along with some some postage and handling (even maybe a UK surcharge), and added the UK VAT on at their end, then the final all-inc delivered price would've been about £150-ish rather than £262.

I don't see the relevance - the issue isn't whether or not any given seller is charging a fair price. It's more about whether or not customers are being clearly told about a change in delivery arrangements and costs.

As it is there is only that single mention of origin. It would be fair to say that many users of that site (a com/gb page) have no idea that this single line has any financial meaning, listed as it is with the usual things under the Checkout button. It also says "Shipping: Free", and lists a UK phone number. It's not until you open a sample of return paperwork that you find this isn't shipped from one of their UK stores and that you can't even return it to one.

To an extent the situation is also the fault of Westminster for not being honest or transparent about what the effects of forming our own four-country trade territory would be.

scotchsoda.PNG
 
Online retail has flourished whilst the UK was an EU member state. It's fair to say that most people, and many, many smaller retailers just don't have the knowledge to navigate these issues seamlessly, because we've never had to - having said that, from the UK perspective, you'd have to be fairly naive to think there wasn't going to be any additional cost or hassle - even if you reasonably wouldn't know what it was going to be.

On the flip side. Caveat Emptor. As someone that believes the high street and keeping things local where possible is better for society than the retail future we're heading towards, I have to confess - friction between consumers and online retailers gives me a little smile. Consumers have largely ****ed over the High Street, flocking to online retailers instead.. if occasionally the consumer gets ****ed over...

tenor.gif



edit: The beeb reporting some more case studies...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55752541
 
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The issue here is that - aside from the bus, which turned out to be a wonderful way to focus the Remain camp on the wrong argument - Brexit was never a financial thing for a lot of Leavers.

They knew (or... you know... didn't, but also didn't care or even come close to comprehending) that there would be an immediate financial penalty to leaving the EU. It has always been totally inevitable that, once any kind of free trade deal was off the table (which was itself almost inevitable; all the benefits of being in the EU with no responsibilities is an incredibly hard sell), losing free trade with our biggest trading partners would come with a cost.

No story about how much it's costing, or how much extra red tape there is at the border, will matter because that wasn't the point of Brexit for them. It was to stop Germany (because Nazis), Spain (because Gibraltar), France (because they ignore all the rules anyway), Italy (because Mafia), or whomever for whatever stereotypical reason or historic slight, telling the UK what laws it can and can't have.

Northern Ireland border and GFA? They don't care. Empty fish markets? They don't care. Mild shortage of electronic goods? They don't care. Kent is a car park? They don't care (so long as it doesn't reach Tunbridge Wells or Sevenoaks). They just don't want a bunch of people we beat in wars to dictate our laws.

Waving the fact that UK manufacturers are facing bigger expenses and delays because they may use EU-origin parts at them won't even register. If it does, it'll be petty EU bureaucracy punishing us for leaving. Anything more than that will probably be "well, we don't make anything any more anyway; now we're out of the EU we can bring back British manufacturing and ingenuity to be the best in the world again" (because, you know, that's how that works and everything).


The fact that Remain never understood how unimportant the financial argument was and kept hacking at it (and being outraged over a bus) is a good part of why it didn't win. It spent so much time on a dead-end argument on people who'd never change their minds, when all it needed to do was convince the floating voters about non-trade benefits to it all...
This is a fantastic assessment. I think most of you know I was a leave voter but it seems fair to clarify before I waffle here;

The whole Brexit referendum reminds me of Julius Caesar, Shakespeare's classic analysis of the struggle between reason and rhetoric.

Many remain talking points were, and remain, extremely reasonable, but the almost entirely rhetorical leave campaign won the day. I think many remain supporters and voters felt quite secure that they had the right of it, and that any basic logical analysis by a reasonable person would lead to the conclusion to vote remain. Remain campaigns came from an assumed position of general correctness, resting on the presumption that reason would prevail.

Meanwhile, the leave campaign focused heavily on lowest common denominators, snappy rhetorical statements and catchphrases, big bombastic adverts and of course the sore thumb that was the bus.

I don't think remain campaigners took the emotional, or symbolic sides of the argument as having any weight - in a perfect world, they wouldn't - and didn't anticipate so many voting with their hearts before their minds.

The leave campaign was full of flaws, from the realistic factual perspective, but it was executed to far more fanfare and pomp than the remain campaign, which maintained a rational and analytical aesthetic thru most of campaigning time.

I will not say one was better than the other - one was more honest, and the other more successful. But I do think it makes a certain parallel to the power struggles of Rome after the death of Caesar, as described by the bard - in that case, rhetoric also won the day, and in the face of pretty infallible reason.
 
So.. they lied then... ?
I'd take the idea that political campaigners lied, embellished, twisted or hid the truth as an absolute given in any campaign.

So yes, they lied, and lied well - remain should have tried the same, because anyone expecting a fair fight in an election or referendum is living in cloud cuckoo land.

To clarify - I don't intend to condemn the remain campaign, or legitimise the claims made by leave in these posts. Just describing the landscape as I see it, and why I think things went down as they did.

Generally people prefer the beautiful lie to the ugly truth, I guess.
 
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In this case it could easily be an honest mistake by the retailer, or an improperly configured part of the website not calculating things correctly. But at the same time I know nothing about this retailer or their reputation, so it's possible they've been using confusion with exchange rates to their advantage for a long time.

I feel like this is going to be a major point of contention over the next year or two, especially as the less-than-honest online retailers start actively trying to obscure that they're overcharging UK customers for things rather than just issuing the occasional refund when someone actually notices and files a complaint.

Agreed, there's a lot of possible explanations and I stopped short of claiming this is a direct result of brexit-scalping because we don't know what the price comparison would've been before.

I don't know how typical brexit-scalping will be. I'd like to think most retailers will have enough integrity to not hide the passing on of extra costs they face in the price, and rather do it in the shipping/handling - that would probably benefit them overall since more things would remain under the £135 threshold.

I don't see the relevance - the issue isn't whether or not any given seller is charging a fair price. It's more about whether or not customers are being clearly told about a change in delivery arrangements and costs.

It's relevant if it's due in any part to brexit, which I admit we can't say. This isn't simply not charging a fair price, it's charging one price to NL and a very different one to GB. To be fair, they also charge an inflated price to Taiwan ($216) compared to US ($159) - it seems they have a US warehouse since it's out of stock there. However, the Taiwan price is still less than the GB one, it seems comparable to their 'rest of world' price of €174.97 (about £156).

As it is there is only that single mention of origin. It would be fair to say that many users of that site (a com/gb page) have no idea that this single line has any financial meaning, listed as it is with the usual things under the Checkout button. It also says "Shipping: Free", and lists a UK phone number. It's not until you open a sample of return paperwork that you find this isn't shipped from one of their UK stores and that you can't even return it to one.

To an extent the situation is also the fault of Westminster for not being honest or transparent about what the effects of forming our own four-country trade territory would be.


Indeed (on both points). If it weren't for the fact that they do actually have a couple of shops in London (and that UK phone) I'd say @MatskiMonk's 'caveat emptor' would be the end of it, but there hasn't been any appreciable efffort to inform people by the gov. I wasn't aware of the VAT rule changes even though they were published back in July.

I think in this case the site could do more to warn that further charges are likely to be applied when the cart is over £135, but generally not really sure that much responsibility for this can be put on stores. They certainly ought to do more to show that VAT is being collected by them at source for orders less than £135, there's currently no indication of that whatsoever before putting in payment details. I presume they tack it on after, since it isn't in the price shown at the cart stage.

I don't really have any agenda when posting these things, it's all an aside to pointing out that most cases that will make the news can't be taken as typical. I started that post looking at the site from the angle of how obvious it was that there would be charges, and only later noticed the 'unfair' pricing when looking to see how they displayed VAT to an NL customer. Anyway, basically just doing a case study beyond the summary that's in the news.

Here's one that I hope is not typical: Reichelt. That's their (old?) .co.uk that now gets you to the .com site with DE selected (although still .com/gb in the url). They seem to have simply cut UK - and Ireland (!) - from the places they will sell to (which is basically anywhere in the world, apart from maybe Russia, couldn't spot them in the long list). Trying to login to my account gets invalid username or password, password reset request hasn't come through either. For me this one is just a minor inconvenience, they were sometimes just a bit cheaper than buying from a UK seller, but if that's the route that many stores take then it's a bigger issue.
 
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I'd take the idea that political campaigners lied, embellished, twisted or hid the truth as an absolute given in any campaign.

So yes, they lied, and lied well - remain should have tried the same, because anyone expecting a fair fight in an election or referendum is living in cloud cuckoo land.

To be honest I was more curious why you seemed to make such an effort to avoid stating something so obvious.
 
To be honest I was more curious why you seemed to make such an effort to avoid stating something so obvious.
I guess I supposed the word "rhetoric" would imply a lack of adherence to the truth.

I didn't take an effort not to mention it, it's just my post was too rambling and incoherent to state it clearly.

I don't think a more truthful campaign from leave or a more rhetorical campaign from remain would have changed my vote, which is based in a distrust of unaccountable bureaucratic superstates - a stance I've explained before, I believe, in this thread.

Sorry if you thought I was out to misinform - it was incompetence rather than malice.
 
Sorry if you thought I was out to misinform - it was incompetence rather than malice.

Fair enough.

I don't think a more truthful campaign from leave or a more rhetorical campaign from remain would have changed my vote, which is based in a distrust of unaccountable bureaucratic superstates - a stance I've explained before, I believe, in this thread.

At the start of all this referendum talk I was only 60:40 remain, I could have been persuaded by a more effective campaign to vote leave, because I'd never really considered the issue that deeply. I was aware of some of the benefits, and obviously some of the bad headline grabbing stuff was on my mind too. Once the Leave campaign picked up, it became obvious to me that the campaign relied only on divisive lies (and rhetoric), which persuaded me not to vote for it. A more honest appraisal and campaign may have won my vote, even if it had not painted a picture of sunny uplands.

The additional layers of government, or bureaucracy, along side our own system is perhaps one of the few pro-leave arguments I agree with. However, this is not because I disagree with the principle, just the way it's executed. Since the referendum, I've only become more and more appalled at our own system of government as I've learned more about it. For that reason, I have a low tolerance for the argument against the EU's unaccountable bureaucrats from anyone that isn't also livid at our parliamentary democracy... which given the nations strong contingent of Pro-Leave Tories means I have a low tolerance many people, including most of my friends!

Most of my friends: "Let's vote for Boris to get Brexit done, and send those unelected EU bureaucrats packing!"
Boris: "Excellent let's get Brexit done and stuff the House of Lords full of my campaign donors, family, and friends!"

It's utterly bonkers to have a grievance with the EU on this front, but give our Lords Spiritual and Lords Temporal a free pass to life time peerages and a direct say in our laws and government.
 
give our Lords Spiritual and Lords Temporal a free pass to life time peerages and a direct say in our laws and government.

This is the thing that gets me the most, people often (seemingly) didn't realise that they could vote for their MEP. They thought they were taking back control from some overloaded unelected gravy train when in fact they were delivering it to one.
 
The DUP are making hay out of the shredded Article 16 threats. They do have a point, they represent voters who want full Union but have found themselves part of the EU-by-proxy and less attached to Great Britain. Even if their message is correct for the voters I always find there's too much of the swivel-eyed-loon about Arlene Foster to take her seriously. She's a kind of anti-Sturgeon.
 
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The EU have made a massive blunder with this threat, and it will have an impact even though it has been withdrawn for the moment.

Both the UK and the EU can, if they believe the other side is not playing ball, unilaterally override parts of the Brexit agreement, but this is the first time that one side has actually taken a step that would have effected hard border-like conditions in Ireland, to the consternation of London, Belfast and Dublin.

This is a tricky moment, though, because it kind of proves the swivel-eyed Brexit loons right to some extent - that the EU can threaten a hard border all they want, but it isn't going to happen.

So that begs the question, if the EU can't play that card but find themselves in a situation where they have to do something, what will they do? The EU can certainly make life difficult for the UK in a number of ways that doesn't involve implementing a hard border in Ireland, but that in itself will not help with the immediate problem that the EU suspect that the UK will use NI as a back door to continue to export vaccines from the EU when otherwise they would block such exports.

There's an obvious but very controversial option that has been mooted in this thread before - if you can't put the border between Eire and NI, you put the border between Eire and the rest of the EU. I don't think it will come to that, but it might. In other words, the EU may have no choice but to limit exports of vaccines to Ireland as a whole in order to stop illicit cross-border exports (although they themselves are responsible for making such exports illicit in the first place).
 
The DUP are making hay out of the shredded Article 16 threats. They do have a point, they represent voters who want full Union but have found themselves part of the EU-by-proxy and less attached to Great Britain. Even if their message is correct for the voters I always find there's too much of the swivel-eyed-loon about Arlene Foster to take her seriously. She's a kind of anti-Sturgeon.

Oh dear oh dear. Only yesterday I for once found myself in agreement with Foster, when she called the imposition of article 16 despicable and "an absolutely incredible act of hostility". Yet now she's calling for it :rolleyes: ... the same words apply!


The EU have made a massive blunder with this threat, and it will have an impact even though it has been withdrawn for the moment.

Both the UK and the EU can, if they believe the other side is not playing ball, unilaterally override parts of the Brexit agreement, but this is the first time that one side has actually taken a step that would have effected hard border-like conditions in Ireland, to the consternation of London, Belfast and Dublin.

This is a tricky moment, though, because it kind of proves the swivel-eyed Brexit loons right to some extent - that the EU can threaten a hard border all they want, but it isn't going to happen.

So that begs the question, if the EU can't play that card but find themselves in a situation where they have to do something, what will they do? The EU can certainly make life difficult for the UK in a number of ways that doesn't involve implementing a hard border in Ireland, but that in itself will not help with the immediate problem that the EU suspect that the UK will use NI as a back door to continue to export vaccines from the EU when otherwise they would block such exports.

There's an obvious but very controversial option that has been mooted in this thread before - if you can't put the border between Eire and NI, you put the border between Eire and the rest of the EU. I don't think it will come to that, but it might. In other words, the EU may have no choice but to limit exports of vaccines to Ireland as a whole in order to stop illicit cross-border exports (although they themselves are responsible for making such exports illicit in the first place).

The whole thing is a bit more than a blunder only impacting NI. Export controls aren't being put in place to stop an illicit route into the UK, they don't need to actually do border checks anywhere - this isn't just about a bit of cigarette smuggling, this is large companies directly supplying national health services! Whether successful or not, this is an attempt to be able to restrict Pfizer's ability to supply the UK - presumably using the exact opposite argument that they are using against AZ, namely that a 'best effort' does not imply a committed delivery date (re UK contract with Pfizer). Regardless of the legal status of it, it would be morally reprehensible to prevent people who've had a first dose of Pfizer vaccine from getting the second within what is already an extended timeframe.

Re. "The EU can certainly make life difficult for the UK in a number of ways ...", sure, they can, but is any of it reasonable or even defensible at all?!

In the article WHO criticises EU over vaccine export controls, the BBC describes the EU's move as:
What is the EU doing?
The European Union is introducing export controls on coronavirus vaccines made in the bloc, amid a row about delivery shortfalls.

The so-called transparency mechanism gives EU countries powers to deny authorisation for vaccine exports if the company making them has not honoured existing contracts with the EU.

"The protection and safety of our citizens is a priority and the challenges we now face left us with no choice but to act," the European Commission said.
Yep, they used 'so-called' appropriately for once!

Earlier in the week I'd already seen this escalation called a row between the UK and the EU, which at that point it wasn't - it was a row between EU and AZ. It is entirely the EU who is starting a row with UK with these export controls, and we will be forced to respond in kind with similar controls.

This explosive, nuclear option first, approach from the EU is only going to backfire. They will end up with not much more vaccine than they had before, while having soured relations with multiple allied countries and sullied their reputation globally. Also, I can only imagine that restrictions on vaccine ingredients will be a net loss to all involved.

TBH, when I say EU above I mainly mean VDL. The buck stops with her. It's one thing for national leaders and ministers to put out strong rhetoric, rather meaningless in the end (particularly Macron), but quite another for actions to be put in place from the top.


update 17:55 GMT: BBC article EU 'fiasco' on NI heaps pressure on Commission makes the same points, but IMO still plays down how harmful export restrictions of any kind would be (regardless of NI).

From The Guardian:
“We were worried about vaccine nationalism – but the person we feared was Trump, that he would be able to pressurise a US company, and perhaps buy up the drug stocks,” said a former adviser at the Department of Health. “We never expected there would be a row with the EU.”
 
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Article in The Telegraph has some more than juicy quotes about VDL: Calls for 'vindictive' Ursula von der Leyen to resign over Irish border debacle - European Commission president accused of carrying out Brexit vendetta in damaging move to impose border checks.
Motivated by her hatred of Brexit, Ursula von de Leyen overruled her top trade advisors with a plan for a new Irish border, The Telegraph has learnt.

The European Commission president was warned she would cause uproar but pressed on regardless as part of what one of her own employees called “an increasingly vindictive” attitude towards the UK government.

Furious Brussels-based diplomats were on Saturday piling pressure on the Commission chief over her disastrous handling of the affair amid suggestions of waning confidence in her abilities.

Her aborted decision to force through a border without even notifying either Ireland or the UK was considered highly damaging for the reputation of the Brussels executive, which had promised over years of Brexit negotiations that this was precisely what it was trying to avoid.

“She needs to go. Now,” one diplomat told the Sunday Telegraph. “She told f------ no-one. After four years of tedious skullduggery over the backstop. Surely the commission could have thought of the optics?”

The Brussels regulator “is quite successfully undermining its own credibility on the rule of law,” the diplomat continued. “Do they really think this will improve their credibility as contract negotiator? It’s not like you couldn’t see this coming…Was there no one to protect her from going here? Everyone has just gone stark raving mad.”

It continues with complaints about the vaccine rollout etc.

In contrast to that article, VDL was previously helpful to us getting a deal to the point of seriously annoying Barnier, as noted in this article in The Week from the beginning of December: France vs. Germany rift revealed as row over Brexit deal concessions intensifies - Conflict between EU power brokers triggered during Michel Barnier’s Covid isolation.
"The Brexit talks suffered a serious setback after France and Germany clashed over concessions offered by the EU to the UK during negotiations conducted by a stand-in for the bloc’s chief negotiator Michel Barnier, it has emerged."

After Barnier was forced to self-isolate after being exposed to Covid-19, European Commissioner Ursula von der Leyen “tightened her grip on the negotiations” by sending Stephanie Riso, her deputy chief of staff, to run the talks, according to The Times.

Riso and the UK team reportedly then “began to make real progress - so much so that alarm bells rang in Paris and some other capitals”.

An EU official told the newspaper that Barnier was so unhappy with the direction the talks were talking that he contacted EU ambassadors to “guide” member states to issues on which he thought too many concessions had been made.

“He raised flags,” the source said. “It was masterful and subtle but everyone was aware that Barnier himself was not happy with the Von der Leyen and Riso approach of getting a deal ‘whatever’ it takes.”

I certainly recall news reports tallying with that, separately noting progress (while Barnier was in isolation) and then a serious setback when he returned. For example the BBC: Brexit: Time running out as Brexit trade talks restart:
The UK and the EU have resumed talks on post-Brexit trade in London, with time running out to achieve a deal.

A senior UK government source said the prospects of a breakthrough were "receding" and accused the EU of making "11th-hour" demands.
...
France's Europe minister, Clement Beaune, warned that his government could "veto" any deal reached between the UK and EU, if it did not satisfy his country's demands.
Act 11, with France playing the villain - after Barnier's prompting off-stage?

As we know, after that it was a series of calls between Boris and Ursula that finally got things moving back towards a deal.

So what the hell is going on in VDL's mind? It seems to me that it's less about Brexit than about finding a scapegoat for her incompetence no matter what the cost. If so, she ought to resign on that charge alone.
 
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Last week my stepfather passed away after a very long battle with Alzheimer's. He was from a modest, middle class, very English background. His keen intellect led to his receiving a scholarship to University College, Oxford where he studied PPE & became secretary of the Oxford Union. After graduating from Oxford in 1958 he did a Masters degree at the College Of Europe in Bruges.

The College of Europe in Bruges was founded in 1949 by leading historical European figures and founding fathers of the European Union, including Salvador de Madariaga, Winston Churchill, Paul-Henri Spaak and Alcide De Gasperias one of the results of the 1948 Congress of Europe in The Hague to promote "a spirit of solidarity and mutual understanding between all the nations of Western Europe and to provide elite training to individuals who will uphold these values" and "to train an elite of young executives for Europe". Wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_of_Europe

Somewhat unusually for an Englishman, my father spoke fluent French & German, & decent Spanish, Italian & Swedish. He looked very "English" (think Edward Heath), but had a truly pan-European outlook. During his business career he ran a company that exported British-made products to all corners of the globe. The advance of Alzheimer's means that he was probably not aware of Brexit. Just as well, as it would have represented a devastating reversal of everything he believed in & worked towards during his life. :indiff:
 
Brexit Madness - New Zealand Lamb Enters EU Easier Than Welsh! - YouTube

Here's a short video that explains that it is now easier for the EU to import lamb from New Zealand than it is from Wales.

Due to NZ having better alignment with the EU on veterinary checks than the UK, it is currently onerously difficult for Welsh lamb producers to export to the EU.

And indeed, many other food producers across the UK are being hammered by new restrictions on exporting to the EU.

But, playing devil's advocate for a second here, doesn't this beg a rather obvious question - Welsh lamb producers were able to export lamb into the EU up until the end of 2020 with no problem because the UK was still in the EU single market... so the question of whether Welsh lamb is actually acceptable for consumption within the EU was, until six weeks ago, a clear yes.

Doesn't this imply that the EU deliberately holds imports from third countries to a much higher standard than they do from within their own single market?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but it comes across as somewhat paradoxical that the EU requires importers to align ever more closely with EU regulations in order to easily import produce, but they don't hold their own member states to anything like the same level of scrutiny. This is a bit weird, because it means that nations that diverge from EU standards (like the UK is currently doing) are likely to face huge difficulties in trading with the EU, while being inside the EU paradoxically allows you to diverge as much as you want because Single Market member states don't require the same level of checks between them...
 
Seems like a benefit of being in the club than outside it.

Welsh farmers were, on the whole, quite pro-Brexit. Get what they deserve.
 
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