Britain - The Official Thread

[PeterJB]

I've just noticed that UKIP of all parties are running a candidate in Cardiff Central named Sarul-Islam Mohammed...

 

[TenEightyOne]

I've just noticed that UKIP of all parties are running a candidate in Cardiff Central named Sarul-Islam Mohammed...

He's in with a chance too. Jumped ship from Plaid Cymru a few years back iirc, one might say that's quite a change in outlook.

 

[Dotini]

Don't you think the conservatives will do very well in Wales?

 

[TenEightyOne]

Don't you think the conservatives will do very well in Wales?

Small-c conservatives on the furthest right, no. Big-C Conservatives, I can see them making gains. Currently the Welsh political make-up is a social-democractic one with liberals (the centre ground) and Labour (the left wing) holding a majority.

 

[Touring Mars]

Rolf Harris is to be released from prison this week - however his freedom may well be short-lived as he is currently standing trial for other historical sexual offences. He's been appearing in court via videolink until now, but will be attending court in person for the last few days of the trial, which will probably see him sent straight back to jail.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/18/rolf-harris-to-be-released-from-prison-on-friday

 

[Dotini]

Small-c conservatives on the furthest right, no. Big-C Conservatives, I can see them making gains. Currently the Welsh political make-up is a social-democractic one with liberals (the centre ground) and Labour (the left wing) holding a majority.

Overnight BBC radio made it seem to me that Wales favors Brexit and immigration controls, and implied they were going Conservative in ever larger numbers.

 

[TenEightyOne]

The word "Conservatives" has been getting smaller and smaller on the Theresa May posters... now I can't see it at all on the Big Blue Bus.

 

[Famine]

Cross-posting from the football thread, but:

New £500,000 Sheffield United signing Ched Evans, who cheated on his girlfriend with a teenage girl who was so drunk and pilled up that it took five years to decide whether she was capable of consenting (while his mates allegedly filmed it), warns women against drinking to excess because of genuine rapists.

I... I... I... I...

What good can he possibly think will come out of this?

I just... the... but?

​

 

[Dotini]

The word "Conservatives" has been getting smaller and smaller on the Theresa May posters... now I can't see it at all on the Big Blue Bus.

View attachment 647876

Could be called Tory, but would even banana make any difference?

 

[TRGTspecialist]

The word "Conservatives" has been getting smaller and smaller on the Theresa May posters... now I can't see it at all on the Big Blue Bus.

View attachment 647876

For all we know they secretly disbanded the Conservative party when everyone wasn't looking.....



When she's currently more popular than her party, go nuts I suppose. The DUP did that heavily last year when Arlene Foster had just replaced Peter Robinson as leader, and no one had realised how awful she was yet.

-----------------------------------------


Among the Tory manifesto pledges:



Presumably as long as Corbyn is Labour leader we'll be having a general election every year?

 

[TenEightyOne]

Could be called Tory, but would even banana make any difference?

It's odd because only about 74,000 people will be eligible to vote for her specifically. We don't elect a Prime Minister, we elect constituency representatives from any given party. This election is unusual in focussing on the personalities (such as they are) far more than the parties. It's May .vs. Corbyn.

 

[Liquid]

Diet Davros and Beardy Weirdy are the only two choices, if you believed the "news" papers.

I actually went on a bit of a rant on FB about this; people should take at least a cursory glance at the candidates who are standing in the constituency. You can't vote for May, you can't vote for Corbyn, you can't vote for Wood, you can't vote for Farron.

In fact, you can't vote directly for the Prime Minister and you never have been able to.

 

[ExigeEvan]

Don't you think the conservatives will do very well in Wales?

Conservatives typically get a large vote from the grey old folk, something they can't rely on in Wales for historical reasons (Thatcher, mines etc).

That's not to say they won't do well on the back of Brexit and Corbyn being viewed as a townie aristocrat by many.

 

[Liquid]

In related news, former Wales First Minister Rhodri Morgan has died at the age of 77.

A father of the nation, I always quite like Rhodri; big on Wales and Welsh issues and fought tooth and nail for devolution. A breath of fresh air for national politics after the unpopularity of Alun Michael. He also had in his plus column the fact that he frequently rubbed Tony Blair up the wrong way because Morgan didn't tow New Labour party line.

Gorffwys Mewn Hedd

 

[Famine]

Political Compass update for GE2017 is actually quite shocking:

​

Just for comparison here's the Compass for the US election primaries:

​

The Conservative Party has always been the most conservative party - that's no shock - but the social stance is incredible. This is turkeys voting for Christmas stuff - they're only outstripped by actual fascists (UKIP this time, BNP in 2010) for their ludicrously authoritarian stance.

Labour's shift is as incredible. Under Corbyn the party has moved -7.5 points on the social scale and -8 on the economic scale. Broadly it's a contradictory position - allowing people to get on with their lives but taking their money off them - but it's the first time I've seen one of the big three outside the conservative half of the chart since 1992. As far as an actual difference between the major parties goes, it's enough that it might win them votes, but so many are put off by Corbyn's vacillating on key issues and in fact any other issues, it may not make a difference.

Liberal Democrats still haven't returned to liberalism, having abandoned it for the Coalition. They should be the centrist's choice, but won't be.

The Greens are becoming marginally more conservative. They'll probably never cross into the conservative side - environmentalism needs a lot of capital and that means a lot of wealth redistribution - but -2.5/-5 is a big step right from the steady -4/-5 of the last two elections...

 

[Liquid]

@Famine Do you agree with the chart placements?

 

[TenEightyOne]

Political Compass update for GE2017 is actually quite shocking

That puts Labour back to their '70s positioning, something we discussed briefly earlier in this thread. Labour's current manifesto is certainly a confusing mix of Proper Socialism, social democracy and authoritarianism.

 

[TRGTspecialist]

ITV's minnows leaders debate is on.



May not turning up as expected, but no Corbyn either? What? He's spent weeks complaining about May refusing to debate anyone. At least her cowardly position has been consistent........how did Corbyn think he could get away with it without looking hypocritical?

 

[Spurgy 777]

ITV's minnows leaders debate is on.



May not turning up as expected, but no Corbyn either? What? He's spent weeks complaining about May refusing to debate anyone. At least her cowardly position has been consistent........how did Corbyn think he could get away with it without looking hypocritical?

Hasn't he always said he wouldn't go if May didn't? Agree he still should have gone though.

 

[Famine]

@Famine Do you agree with the chart placements?

To an extent, yes. I think the social position is a little too much Corbyn and not enough Labour though - he believes that there's no real leader in the party, he's just the first among equals, but the sheer number of employment laws in the manifesto alone should put the party as more authoritarian than it is.

 

[Liquid]

The irony being that the Prime Minister is supposed to be, nominally, first amongst equals but we've been getting nothing but THERESA MAY THERESA MAY THERESA MAY THERESA MAY for the last few weeks and let's face it, many, many decades of Prime Ministers dictating how the cabinet behaves instead of cabinet meetings being a democratic, shared process.

 

[W3H5]

Rolf Harris is to be released from prison this week - however his freedom may well be short-lived as he is currently standing trial for other historical sexual offences. He's been appearing in court via videolink until now, but will be attending court in person for the last few days of the trial, which will probably see him sent straight back to jail.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/18/rolf-harris-to-be-released-from-prison-on-friday

If he did what's he's accused of doing then he should stay imprisoned for the rest of his miserable life.

 

[Lizard]

Hasn't he always said he wouldn't go if May didn't? Agree he still should have gone though.

Yes he always has done. Personally I too think he should have gone. Although from a campaign point of view there is more at risk than there is to gain from doing that, aka from a strategic point of view attending the debate would be rather stupid.

To an extent, yes. I think the social position is a little too much Corbyn and not enough Labour though - he believes that there's no real leader in the party, he's just the first among equals, but the sheer number of employment laws in the manifesto alone should put the party as more authoritarian than it is.

I think it is judging employment laws as part of the left right scale, as it is a restriction on the free market for the good* of the workers.

*Yes I know some here think that the regulations are actually bad for the workers.

 

[Famine]

I think it is judging employment laws as part of the left right scale, as it is a restriction on the free market for the good* of the workers.

Good point.

However, Corbyn does support the IPA (not to be confused with the IRA, which is its own issue), and that's basically the surveillance equivalent of East Germany. It's a long way from there to liberalism, no matter how LGBT-friendly, pro-legalisation of cannabis and anti-Israel (which seems to be a prerequisite to be 'liberal' these days) he is.

*Yes I know some here think that the regulations are actually bad for the workers.

It depends on the regulation - national minimum wage, for example, is terrible for workers. Bear in mind that workers do have all the power already. There wouldn't be 🤬 jobs with 🤬 pay and conditions if workers refused to do them. Insert 'but they have to in order to survive' here, ignoring the race-to-the-bottom aspect of humans willing to undercut each other to everyone's detriment.

The much lambasted zero-hour contracts wouldn't even be a thing if people weren't willing to do them. There are some for whom a zero-hour contract is an ideal solution. Corbyn's plan to ban them hurts the people who want to do them and the people who are willing to do them - and that's a million people. By forcing an increase in national minimum wage too, it reduces the money pool available to employers for employment.

That certainly makes the employed better off (until inflation takes care of the wage rise and everything's back to square one), but it increases the number of unemployed and increases the prosperity gap between them. I thought making the poor poorer and the rich richer was a Tory thing to do?

Still, that can always be offset by increasing unemployment benefits - which, naturally, have to be at the same level as the living wage or nobody would be able to live off it (hey, stay at home or do a 36.5-hour 🤬 job for the same money? No brainer... bye bye huge pool of menial workers), which can be taken care of by an increase in corporation tax - since those corporations never do anything but make all the stuff we buy and employ people, and make profit so that they can expand and make more, newer, better stuff and employ more people. Which reduces the money pool available to employers for employment. GOTO 10.


On the bright side, he wants to 'reindustralise' the North (why us and not London?). He also supports - though this isn't in the manifesto, just like the manifesto doesn't reflect his own position on Trident - the cancellation any new nuclear power stations in favour of 'clean' coal (which we don't produce any more). Which I'm fairly sure is a Trump policy...


Edit: New poll!

 

[Spurgy 777]

Edit: New poll!

Well the only vaguely competent party are the Tories, so them?... Maybe? I don't know Tempted to spoil my ballot.

 

[Famine]

Well the only vaguely competent party are the Tories, so them?... Maybe? I don't know

The problem is that they're almost entirely evil this election...

Political Compass update for GE2017 is actually quite shocking:

​

The Conservative Party has always been the most conservative party - that's no shock - but the social stance is incredible. This is turkeys voting for Christmas stuff - they're only outstripped by actual fascists (UKIP this time, BNP in 2010) for their ludicrously authoritarian stance.

 

[Spurgy 777]

The problem is that they're almost entirely evil this election...

Exactly

 

[Lizard]

Well the only vaguely competent party are the Tories

In your opinion. As long as I have known you you have been pretty far right (not extremist I just mean on the economic scale).

Personally I don't see how May can be considered competent considering how she is dealing with Brexit. Although to be fair she is more competent than Dave ever was. Dave would go into a meeting and bend over for France, Germany and anyone else at the table.

 

[Famine]

In your opinion.

That being the name of the forum...

However, taking the regional parties out of the frame you're left with Conservative, Labour, Liberal Democrat, Green and UKIP.

Let's ignore UKIP, as they've had, like, twenty leaders this year so far and Farage might still be in charge or might not be and their poll numbers have absolutely tanked because of the referendum. Plus they don't have enough MPs to play musical chairs or chess. In terms of showing leadership, they don't.

Greens kinda have to be ignored too, on the same basis of sod all MPs. The Greens are so bad at leadership that they don't even have a leader - they have two doing a job share. Imagine foreign dignitaries coming over to meet the Prime Minister, only to find out it's the other one.

The Liberal Democrats... Almost everyone forgets on a daily basis that Tim Farron exists - most would think it's still Nick Clegg. Except for gay people, who had a spell of hating him utterly for suggesting homosexuality is a sin and then refusing to acknowledge or backtrack on that by saying 'Well, we're all sinners.'. Smooth. Their recent history is to cosy up to David Cameron and let him rub their belly. Leadership is... absent.

Labour. Corbyn is so bad at leading that he had to go to court so that he could get into the leadership election called as a result of him being terrible at leading - most of his shadow cabinet resigned - because he didn't have the required support of his own MPs but argued that he was the existing leader so should be part of the election. At the moment, his party is a nest of vipers and most of those who quit in protest at his leadership are back in it again.

Which leaves Theresa May who, aside from essentially winning her leadership election when the only other remaining person said something wildly ridiculous about motherhood (which May could never experience) and had to quit the race on that basis, has no particularly obvious leadership flaws and no rumours of dissent amongst the well-whipped party.

So on the basis of 'parties that can lead the country', the only really competent option is in a blue dress.


But judging by the Compass, by 'lead' they mean 'control'.

 

[Spurgy 777]

In your opinion. As long as I have known you you have been pretty far right (not extremist I just mean on the economic scale).

Seems the political compass website disagrees with you;

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...e-pop-quiz-in-op.288475/page-11#post-11820686

I may agree with some or even quite a few policies proposed by far right parties, that does not automatically make me far right.

Personally I don't see how May can be considered competent considering how she is dealing with Brexit. Although to be fair she is more competent than Dave ever was. Dave would go into a meeting and bend over for France, Germany and anyone else at the table.

She is the only one with any sensible proposals with regard to how to deal with Brexit. Every other party (ignoring UKIP) is advocating staying in the single market and the only practical difference between that and staying in the EU is that we won't get a vote on the laws we will have to follow. Otherwise it is essentially exactly the same thing and completely ignores all of the main reasons why people voted to leave.

Their negotiating tactics are awful as well as they're not willing to put no deal on the table. Now granted, that outcome would be bad for both sides, and is something I imagine both sides would want to avoid, but if you're not even willing to consider leaving without a deal your alternatives are to accept the deal, regardless of how bad it is, or stay in the EU.

Are you beginning to see a pattern? The Tories are the only ones genuinely trying to take us out of the EU whilst every other major party is trying their best to ignore the referendum result without saying "we know better than the stupid peasants".