Britain - The Official Thread

[TenEightyOne]

Nope, I read the story wrong and the government has changed their policy on their own accord.

Still not available in NI though.

 

[UKMikey]

Still not available in NI though.

I guess that answers the trousers question...

 

[Robin]

Anyone else think it might be a good idea to separate out all the Grenfell Tower posts in this thread and place them in a dedicated one?

It looks like this whole incident is going to take years to resolve and it might be better to have a separate thread.

 

[Liquid]

I wonder if MP salaries have gone up in the 10 years of public sector pay freezes. I'm pretty sure it has.

It's quite incredulous for Liar Fox to say, minutes after defending the £1,000,000,000 bung to the DUP, that there isn't any money for pay rises for healthcare workers and fire service staff.

 

[TheCracker]

I guess that answers the trousers question...

No, the DUP is the belt that holds the trousers up.

 

[PeterJB]

Anyone else think it might be a good idea to separate out all the Grenfell Tower posts in this thread and place them in a dedicated one?

It looks like this whole incident is going to take years to resolve and it might be better to have a separate thread.

It's the Hillsborough of our generation.

 

[Liquid]

It's the Hillsborough of our generation.

We're going to wait 28 years for justice which should have been delivered from the start? Let's hope not.

 

[Famine]

Anyone else think it might be a good idea to separate out all the Grenfell Tower posts in this thread and place them in a dedicated one?

It looks like this whole incident is going to take years to resolve and it might be better to have a separate thread.

It's the Hillsborough of our generation.

We're going to wait 28 years for justice which should have been delivered from the start? Let's hope not.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/the-grenfell-tower-fire.357167/

 

[Danoff]

174 posts removed from this thread and placed in that one. That had to take a little effort. Thanks to the mods for being responsive and working hard to keep the site organized.

 

[polysmut]

174 posts removed from this thread and placed in that one. That had to take a little effort. Thanks to the mods for being responsive and working hard to keep the site organized.

Agreed. The care shown by the staff on a constant basis is surely what makes this site as great as it is.
Thanks staff for all that you do. 👍

 

[UKMikey]

Saw this in last night's paper and I was wondering whether anyone else thought it sounded a little arrogant. I understand the author's point about museums needing funding but I'm pretty sure there was creativity in the world before Britain started putting stuff in them.

http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/c...he-world-can-help-us-pay-for-it-a3581526.html

 

[homeforsummer]

Saw this in last night's paper and I was wondering whether anyone else thought it sounded a little arrogant. I understand the author's point about museums needing funding but I'm pretty sure there was creativity in the world before Britain started putting stuff in them.

http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/c...he-world-can-help-us-pay-for-it-a3581526.html

Surely the world already helps us pay for our creativity, buy purchasing products and services that emerge as a result of that creativity?

With regards to museums specifically, keep them free for everyone regardless of nationality, or charge everyone. A surcharge for overseas visitors seems like nothing more than needlessly gouging tourists. And, since the author is dealing primarily with London, and even mentions the price of hotels there, tourists already have to spend a crapload to enjoy the place, so at least let them return home full of praise for the only thing that's still free.

 

[TenEightyOne]

It's not unusual to see lower rates for foreign visitors in museums.

 

[Grayfox]

Surely the world already helps us pay for our creativity, buy purchasing products and services that emerge as a result of that creativity?

With regards to museums specifically, keep them free for everyone regardless of nationality, or charge everyone. A surcharge for overseas visitors seems like nothing more than needlessly gouging tourists. And, since the author is dealing primarily with London, and even mentions the price of hotels there, tourists already have to spend a crapload to enjoy the place, so at least let them return home full of praise for the only thing that's still free.

IMO it should work in this manner
a cheap rate for the public that can still pay for staff, rent, and maintenance.
FREE for students.

 

[UKMikey]

IMO it should work in this manner
a cheap rate for the public that can still pay for staff, rent, and maintenance.
FREE for students.

I agree. This silly authoress is suggesting we soak tourists and drive them away. I wonder what'd be wrong with a little corporate sponsorship here and there instead.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Surely the world already helps us pay for our creativity, buy purchasing products and services that emerge as a result of that creativity?

With regards to museums specifically, keep them free for everyone regardless of nationality, or charge everyone. A surcharge for overseas visitors seems like nothing more than needlessly gouging tourists. And, since the author is dealing primarily with London, and even mentions the price of hotels there, tourists already have to spend a crapload to enjoy the place, so at least let them return home full of praise for the only thing that's still free.

It isn't free though, it's subsidized by London/British taxpayers. It's easy to make an argument that the taxpayers that paid for the museum can use it free, but those visiting the country that don't pay taxes should pay.

 

[polysmut]

It isn't free though, it's subsidized by London/British taxpayers. It's easy to make an argument that the taxpayers that paid for the museum can use it free, but those visiting the country that don't pay taxes should pay.

You could also make an argument that one of the reasons the taxpayers pay for the museum is to attract the tourist dollar into the area.
I don't know if that means much in terms of whether those tourists should pay to use the museum. They're going to spend money in various places during their visit. It probably doesn't make much difference in the long run where they do it.

 

[ExigeEvan]

It isn't free though, it's subsidized by London/British taxpayers. It's easy to make an argument that the taxpayers that paid for the museum can use it free, but those visiting the country that don't pay taxes should pay.

Foreigners don't pay taxes? They will on food, hotel rooms, the good they buy and the transportation they use. Not bad really!

The simple reality is that any system would have a huge overhead simply to run it, and that's without the complexity of a selective system.

I like the idea of directly applying tax from a "problem" to a "solution".

Tax on red-top tabloids to fund museums, anyone?

 

[TenEightyOne]

The Lake District (a once-beautiful place now destroyed by sheep) has been awarded UNESCO World Heritage Site status. This status will "preserve farming" despite it being a minority industry nowadays and one that has caused immense ecological damage to the area. How the farming is to be preserved post-Brexit is another matter, there's no guarantee that the post-EU subsidies will be replaced by the government.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...e-district-world-heritage-site-george-monbiot

 

[Johnnypenso]

You could also make an argument that one of the reasons the taxpayers pay for the museum is to attract the tourist dollar into the area. I don't know if that means much in terms of whether those tourists should pay to use the museum. They're going to spend money in various places during their visit. It probably doesn't make much difference in the long run where they do it.

You could make that argument, yes.

Foreigners don't pay taxes? They will on food, hotel rooms, the good they buy and the transportation they use. Not bad really!

The simple reality is that any system would have a huge overhead simply to run it, and that's without the complexity of a selective system.

I like the idea of directly applying tax from a "problem" to a "solution".

Tax on red-top tabloids to fund museums, anyone?

Yes, because the relatively small amount of taxes collected on hotel rooms and food are comparable to the $100's of billions collected from the citizens and corporations residing in the U.K. Perhaps we should let them use the NHS for free as well?

 

[UKMikey]

There's also the question whether museum charges would cause attendance figures to drop so sharply that they cease to become viable.

https://www.museumsassociation.org/...092014-novium-museum-scraps-admission-charges

I don't know whether the situation would be different from the above in central London and other commentators have made the case for charging. The first article I quoted didn't do its cause any favours with the silly chest beating about how the world owes us for leading it in creativity though.

 

[homeforsummer]

It isn't free though, it's subsidized by London/British taxpayers. It's easy to make an argument that the taxpayers that paid for the museum can use it free, but those visiting the country that don't pay taxes should pay.

Foreigners don't pay taxes? They will on food, hotel rooms, the good they buy and the transportation they use. Not bad really!

Yes, because the relatively small amount of taxes collected on hotel rooms and food are comparable to the $100's of billions collected from the citizens and corporations residing in the U.K. Perhaps we should let them use the NHS for free as well?

Tourists don't contribute to the UK through taxes alone. They contribute by spending their money on products and services - to the tune of 10% of UK GDP - which in turn helps businesses and services operate, and who pay their own taxes, some of which are then used to help pay for things like free museums and healthcare.

And while the UK is doing its best right now to make Jonathan H. Foreigner feel unwelcome here, it's nice to think there are certain things they can do that are there simply for the benefit of all, at no up-front cost.

I'm also incredibly uneasy with your concept of charging only foreigners to use a service. How would such a thing operate? ID every visitor to every free museum to see whether they're a citizen or not?

 

[polysmut]

I'm also incredibly uneasy with your concept of charging only foreigners to use a service. How would such a thing operate? ID every visitor to every free museum to see whether they're a citizen or not?

I thought I remembered the Race Relations Act 1976 made it illegal to discriminate, when offering services to the public, based on nationality, national origin, race, colour or ethnicity. Which I thought would have meant museums couldn't base their entry fees on a visitor's nationality.
I looked up the Act yesterday after I'd seen this thread and I see that it has been repealed, replaced by the Equality Act 2010. During a very quick glance through the newer Act, I failed to spot anything similar. I imagine there must be something along those lines in there though?

 

[ExigeEvan]

Yes, because the relatively small amount of taxes collected on hotel rooms and food are comparable to the $100's of billions collected from the citizens and corporations residing in the U.K. Perhaps we should let them use the NHS for free as well?

The 37.6 million overseas visitors who came to the UK in 2016 spent £22.5 billion – both setting records. These figures represent a 4% increase in volume and 2% (nominal) increase in value compared with 2015.

Also estimated to be £21.5Bn in VAT (about 20% of all UK VAT!), £3.2Bn in air passenger duty, 9.5% of total employment and 10% of all businesses.

So it's not small. And we certainly do let them use the NHS for free in emergency situations.

[EDIT] VAT and spend numbers don't add up. Half asleep, let me check my sources.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I looked up the Act yesterday after I'd seen this thread and I see that it has been repealed, replaced by the Equality Act 2010. During a very quick glance through the newer Act, I failed to spot anything similar. I imagine there must be something along those lines in there though?

Museum passes on sale at Holy Island yesterday were significantly cheaper for holders of foreign passports than for UK nationals (or people who couldn't provide the appropriate passport)... so I guess that no such provision stands

 

[homeforsummer]

I imagine there must be something along those lines in there though?

I'd hope so in something called the Equality Act!

 

[polysmut]

I'd hope so in something called the Equality Act!

The Act was designed to consolidate various sexism/racism/other laws, at least according to Parliament's website. It seems from @TenEightyOne's comment that it doesn't cover the situation described here.

 

[homeforsummer]

Yeah, it seems not. Though that neatly illustrates how these Acts often seem a bit half-assed. If it only deals with sexism, racism and similar I suspect the gist of it is more "affirmative action" than true "equality".

 

[polysmut]

Yeah, it seems not. Though that neatly illustrates how these Acts often seem a bit half-assed. If it only deals with sexism, racism and similar I suspect the gist of it is more "affirmative action" than true "equality".

This is one part of the table of contents, to give an idea of the areas covered by the Act.

Part 2 Equality: key concepts

1. Chapter 1 Protected characteristics
   1. 4.The protected characteristics
   2. 5.Age
   3. 6.Disability
   4. 7.Gender reassignment
   5. 8.Marriage and civil partnership
   6. 9.Race
   7. 10.Religion or belief
   8. 11.Sex
   9. 12.Sexual orientation

From
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/contents

 

[Johnnypenso]

Tourists don't contribute to the UK through taxes alone. They contribute by spending their money on products and services - to the tune of 10% of UK GDP - which in turn helps businesses and services operate, and who pay their own taxes, some of which are then used to help pay for things like free museums and healthcare.

And while the UK is doing its best right now to make Jonathan H. Foreigner feel unwelcome here, it's nice to think there are certain things they can do that are there simply for the benefit of all, at no up-front cost.

I'm also incredibly uneasy with your concept of charging only foreigners to use a service. How would such a thing operate? ID every visitor to every free museum to see whether they're a citizen or not?

I will continue the financial contribution argument if you wish but I think you'll find that the rate of taxation on money spent on lodging and goods and services does not compare to the overall rate of taxation on citizens who pay those same taxes after they've already paid their income tax, property tax etc. You should also check your source. Your numbers are faulty. As I said earlier, you can make an argument of allowing free museums for all based on tourism.

Over in Canada and the United States as well, we routinely charge foreign students much more money to attend out state subsidized universities and colleges. In Canada it's as much as 4x what a Canadian would pay. Would you be incredibly uneasy with that as well?