Britain - The Official Thread

  • Thread starter Ross
  • 13,238 comments
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How will you vote in the 2024 UK General Election?

  • Conservative Party

    Votes: 2 6.9%
  • Green Party

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Labour Party

    Votes: 14 48.3%
  • Liberal Democrats

    Votes: 2 6.9%
  • Other (Wales/Scotland/Northern Ireland)

    Votes: 1 3.4%
  • Other Independents

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other Parties

    Votes: 2 6.9%
  • Spoiled Ballot

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Will Not/Cannot Vote

    Votes: 8 27.6%

  • Total voters
    29
  • Poll closed .
And it still is. Some studies show higher rates of certain kinds of cancer amongst heavy mobile phone users, others counter by pointing out that cancers in that part of the head often cause a noticeable impairment to hearing which is more likely noticed in somebody who relies on phone-to-head conversations in day-to-day life.

I don't see what Panorama did wrong in that case. They heavily quoted the WHO (whose advice the government of the time was following) and the government's head of public health who disagreed with the WHO.



That's for another thread... but when you have a process underway that's as idiotic as Brexit seems to be (a friend met David Davis the other day to ask about exports post-Brexit and came away with the impression that he still has zero idea) then it's hard to tell a sensible story.

I can't do the first paragraph, it'll trigger me too much. I was going to re-watch it and highlight the insane points they made. If people were debating wi-fi signals giving you cancer, it's the BBC's job to accurately talk to experts and doctors and not even indulge the idiocy of the argument. Science is peer-reviewed (that's how it works), it's not the job of the uneducated to try and peer-review science and I feel that is something the general public has forgotten.


The issue I have is not only is Brexit idiotic, it's that the BBC constantly gives platforms to people who know nothing, but who have a vested interest in it. Jacob Reese-Mogg will be financially better off if/when we leave the EU, he also knows next to nothing, has no incite... yet he's constantly on Question Time...


Practically everyone on question time panels seem to be halfwits, from the MPs who give vague unhelpful answers to the token journalists and comedians who pretend to know what they’re talking about. There is the odd exception but if you didn’t have any of them on the show would be a bit empty, plus if we have to put up with the likes for Diane Abbott then I’m sure we can live with everyone else they bring on. :lol:


The only person I've come across who's able to break it down for politicians is James O'Brien. But he's no longer allowed onto the BBC it seems due to his pro-Remain stance. Though pro-Brexit people are, of course allowed to perpetuate their insanity...
 
The only person I've come across who's able to break it down for politicians is James O'Brien. But he's no longer allowed onto the BBC it seems due to his pro-Remain stance. Though pro-Brexit people are, of course allowed to perpetuate their insanity...

Wouldn’t say it had anything to do with his stance on Brexit, they have plenty of pro-remain people on, in fact it’s remainers are probably a majority of their panellists.
 
Wouldn’t say it had anything to do with his stance on Brexit, they have plenty of pro-remain people on, in fact it’s remainers are probably a majority of their panellists.

:thinking emoji:
Do you think so? Do you think the political voices that oppose Brexit are as loud as the ones who are pushing for it?

(I'm genuinely asking by the way, I'm not having a go)
 
:thinking emoji:
Do you think so? Do you think the political voices that oppose Brexit are as loud as the ones who are pushing for it?

(I'm genuinely asking by the way, I'm not having a go)

Difficult one to answer, I’d say the majority of panellists argue for going ahead with Brexit but that a majority are remainers. I find it’s usually a mix of strong remainers who want to see the decision reversed, remainers who say the decision shouldn’t be reversed and that we should go ahead with Brexit (usually MPs following their parties position) and people who voted Brexit. Most are usually in the middle group (3 people ish), with maybe 2 people who voted Brexit and 1 or 2 who strongly supports remain.

So to answer your question, yes if you mean people who voted remain and no if you mean people who want the decision to leave reversed (or at least openly admit it).
 
Difficult one to answer, I’d say the majority of panellists argue for going ahead with Brexit but that a majority are remainers. I find it’s usually a mix of strong remainers who want to see the decision reversed, remainers who say the decision shouldn’t be reversed and that we should go ahead with Brexit (usually MPs following their parties position) and people who voted Brexit. Most are usually in the middle group (3 people ish), with maybe 2 people who voted Brexit and 1 or 2 who strongly supports remain.

So to answer your question, yes if you mean people who voted remain and no if you mean people who want the decision to leave reversed (or at least openly admit it).

I think this is the issue. I agree with you but I think that's the problem, how can you be a 'Remainer' if you then want or are pushing for Brexit to happen... how is that balanced? Brexit barely won, yet the majority of the panellists are pushing for it...
 
I think this is the issue. I agree with you but I think that's the problem, how can you be a 'Remainer' if you then want or are pushing for Brexit to happen... how is that balanced? Brexit barely won, yet the majority of the panellists are pushing for it...

Because the majority of people, even those who voted remain, want to go ahead with it and accept that that was the result of the vote. It seems to only be the extreme of remain voters who are continuing to push for the result they want and a reversal through more referendums, and the panels reflect that. Just because you accept that the result of a vote didn't go your way doesn't mean you no longer support what you voted for.
 
Because the majority of people, even those who voted remain, want to go ahead with it and accept that that was the result of the vote. It seems to only be the extreme of remain voters who are continuing to push for the result they want and a reversal through more referendums, and the panels reflect that. Just because you accept that the result of a vote didn't go your way doesn't mean you no longer support what you voted for.
I’m not sure that’s quite the case to be honest...

It would be like when Labour lost the last general election and then for them to be campaigning for Tory policies...

But anyway, I guess this is less now about the bbc and more about Brexit :lol:
 
The Spectator magazine has started to cause a bit of a stir after one of its (rather far right) columnists wrote a piece entitled “In praise of Wehrmacht: The real story of D-Day is the heroism of the German soldiers who were vastly outnumbered but fought nobly and to the death.”

https://www.timesofisrael.com/respected-british-magazine-publishes-defense-of-nazi-german-troops/

In a tangent to the BBC discussion, the chairman of Press Holdings (who own the Spectator) is the BBC's very own (and of course totally impartial) Andrew Neil.


Because the majority of people, even those who voted remain, want to go ahead with it and accept that that was the result of the vote.
That's quite debatable.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/26/britons-favour-second-referendum-brexit-icm-poll
 


Do you think further discussion and voting would lead to a firm and clear resolution of your issues? Or is there the chance that greater confusion, polarization and conflict could ensue? Which is the more desirable outcome? Should the future be one of more unanimity and homogeneity, or one of more diversity and choice with individuals and identity groups enjoying separate realities?
 
Considering the large devide betweennage democraphics has anyone ever wondered if we should implement an upper age restriction for voting on issues that would have a long term impact.

It seems a bit unfair to me that the people who mainly vote in favour of brexit are the ones who won't feel the long term ramifications of said action. They are effectively voting over other peoples lives.

There are reasons to be opposed but it's a thaught I've been.entertaining myself as to find out what my actual stance is on said case.

Do you think further discussion and voting would lead to a firm and clear resolution of your issues? Or is there the chance that greater confusion, polarization and conflict could ensue? Which is the more desirable outcome? Should the future be one of more unanimity and homogeneity, or one of more diversity and choice with individuals and identity groups enjoying separate realities?

There is a chance it leads to more polerisation. There is a chance it leads to less.

But since the first was based on accepting a negotiated deal in favour of the unknown it wouldn't look daft to me to let the people vote on wheter they find the current deal better.
 
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I’m not sure that’s quite the case to be honest...

It would be like when Labour lost the last general election and then for them to be campaigning for Tory policies...

But anyway, I guess this is less now about the bbc and more about Brexit :lol:

That's not a good comparison at all, a general election is 650 odd votes, not 1, which is why Labour MPs continue to support Labour policies because they won their individual vote. A better comparison to a remainer accepting the result and wanting to go ahead with Brexit, or any other losing side in a single vote accepting the result of that vote, is say a Tory MP who lost a seat to a Labour MP not calling for an immediate re-vote and accepting that they lost that vote and that their constituency should be represented by the opposing party.
Considering the large devide betweennage democraphics has anyone ever wondered if we should implement an upper age restriction for voting on issues that would have a long term impact.

It seems a bit unfair to me that the people who mainly vote in favour of brexit are the ones who won't feel the long term ramifications of said action. They are effectively voting over other peoples lives.

There are reasons to be opposed but it's a thaught I've been.entertaining myself as to find out what my actual stance is on said case.

Do you think old people are completely unrelated to younger people? Or that they simply don't care how the country will end up for their children and grand children? Sure some are unlikely to be directly affected but I'm sure they vote on what they consider to be in the best interest of the countries and their families best interest, like most people do, so their opinion shouldn't be any less valid.
 
Considering the large devide betweennage democraphics has anyone ever wondered if we should implement an upper age restriction for voting on issues that would have a long term impact.

It seems a bit unfair to me that the people who mainly vote in favour of brexit are the ones who won't feel the long term ramifications of said action. They are effectively voting over other peoples lives.

There are reasons to be opposed but it's a thaught I've been.entertaining myself as to find out what my actual stance is on said case.
I think that’s a fair question, but given that the Leave EU campaign has been caught and charged with cheating regarding their campaign and that prominent Leave politicians admitted to lying after the vote, I don’t see how the result can even be valid.

IMO I don’t think the government should even be legally allowed to pose yes/no referendums on international policies...

...but then the media as a whole has been pushing anti Eu reteric(?) by its millionaire/billionaire owners has been unchallenged in doing so that now even the BBC can’t help but pander to the right... and now we have this total mess

That's not a good comparison at all, a general election is 650 odd votes, not 1, which is why Labour MPs continue to support Labour policies because they won their individual vote. A better comparison to a remainer accepting the result and wanting to go ahead with Brexit, or any other losing side in a single vote accepting the result of that vote, is say a Tory MP who lost a seat to a Labour MP not calling for an immediate re-vote and accepting that they lost that vote and that their constituency should be represented by the opposing party.

Except the referendum was split almost exactly down the middle (48-52?) how can the majority of politicians and people then just accept this as “well now we have too”... no we don’t and on top of that the leave campaign was campaigned on with lies.

If you oppose something just because half of people don’t agree dosnt mean you should just cave and accept it...

In fact the idea that we should only leads more credence to the idea of how imbalanced the BBC and media in general, is...
 
That's not a good comparison at all, a general election is 650 odd votes, not 1, which is why Labour MPs continue to support Labour policies because they won their individual vote. A better comparison to a remainer accepting the result and wanting to go ahead with Brexit, or any other losing side in a single vote accepting the result of that vote, is say a Tory MP who lost a seat to a Labour MP not calling for an immediate re-vote and accepting that they lost that vote and that their constituency should be represented by the opposing party.


Do you think old people are completely unrelated to younger people? Or that they simply don't care how the country will end up for their children and grand children? Sure some are unlikely to be directly affected but I'm sure they vote on what they consider to be in the best interest of the countries and their families best interest, like most people do, so their opinion shouldn't be any less valid.

I'm not saying they don't have the best intrest in mind. I do wonder if it should be as valid. Don't you think kids aged 14-18 have the best intrset of the country in mind? We don't let them vote?

I am wondering if their opinion is as valid. Can you see how condescending it sounds that old people have the best intrest in mind and their opinion is relevant while their vote actually affects the people who would want it the other way.

Those people will die soon yet their actions will have lasting affects on the people who where forced into it.

I understand it's grim way of looking at things.
And I admit being biased against anything imposed by my grand parents and parents generation. I've always been worth **** in my fathers eyes due to being in college and onny people who worked unwerstand the world. So yeah I am very snowflaky on the subject of older generations 'imposing' their will on people and I have a disgust for the anti intellectual due to my knowledge being considered worthless as I didn't work at age 18. (This while I went to a bar to work every weekend to pay for my own food and drinks while in college)
 
I'm not saying they don't have the best intrest in mind. I do wonder if it should be as valid. Don't you think kids aged 14-18 have the best intrset of the country in mind? We don't let them vote?

I am wondering if their opinion is as valid. Can you see how condescending it sounds that old people have the best intrest in mind and their opinion is relevant while their vote actually affects the people who would want it the other way.

Those people will die soon yet their actions will have lasting affects on the people who where forced into it.

I understand it's grim way of looking at things.
And I admit being biased against anything imposed by my grand parents and parents generation. I've always been worth **** in my fathers eyes due to being in college and onny people who worked unwerstand the world. So yeah I am very snowflaky on the subject of older generations 'imposing' their will on people and I have a disgust for the anti intellectual due to my knowledge being considered worthless as I didn't work at age 18. (This while I went to a bar to work every weekend to pay for my own food and drinks while in college)

To be fair, I think there is a difference between a child (under the age of 18) and a senior citizen (over the age of 65/70). While they can and have the right to only vote for their own interest they are far more capable of making an informed decision, and probably, on average are more educated and have more political knowledge than say, the poor... so then, should we also not let them vote?
 
To be fair, I think there is a difference between a child (under the age of 18) and a senior citizen (over the age of 65/70). While they can and have the right to only vote for their own interest they are far more capable of making an informed decision, and probably, on average are more educated and have more political knowledge than say, the poor... so then, should we also not let them vote?

I agree.

Truth is I wouldn't say a single word to my grandparents ever again if they voted in said refferendum. They have no right to make descissions over my future. They should not have any right to impose their 1940's worldview on long lasting global politics.

When voting for parlement they should still have every right. 4-6yrs is not a long time.


Edit and as I admitted this is emotional for me to so I might be very biased on this subject because of it.
 
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@Spurgy 777 The issue I have with the idea of a 'Remainer' pushing on with Brexit is that Brexit's best BEST case end game situation is having us abide by ALL the same EU law we do now, but have literally no power or input on those laws... that's the best possible end game, to simply be worse off than we already are...

Who voted for that? 52% of people didn't vote for that.
 
Don't you think kids aged 14-18 have the best intrset of the country in mind? We don't let them vote?
There's so much wrong with this question it's hard to know what the start point of tackling it is.

We don't let children drink, smoke, drive, join the army, work full time, have sex or indeed do anything with any kind of wide-ranging responsibility or consequences because their bodies and brains are not yet fully formed. We don't even hold them responsible for their actions until they're 10, because they're not judged to be capable of understanding cause and effect, and right and wrong.

They don't magically all gain this ability at 18, but that's a convenient cutoff point where the majority of humans will be at a developmental plateau, as opposed to at 14 where a majority will still be in rapid development.

Given that they can't really do anything that has any responsibility, how are they - with no (or very little, at best) experience of anything - supposed to be thought capable to determine the best path for the entire nation, or decide on things like foreign policy, tax strategy and trade?


When I was 14, a lot of my peers (and I went to a private school) thought that all cats were girls and all dogs were boys. Today's 14-year olds would vote for Hitler - actual Hitler - if he wore a Manchester United shirt, swore on live TV, did the floss dance, called himself Hitler McHitlerface and referred to the PM as "Theresa GAY, LOL". No offence to any bright 14-year olds here - I've trusted my eldest girl's judgment more than most adults' since she was 8 - but you know that a lot of people your age are absolute asshats who talk in Spongebob memes and think literally any behaviour of any kind is okay if you're just "trolling" or it's "banter".

Those people will die soon yet their actions will have lasting affects on the people who where forced into it.
They should not have any right to impose their 1940's worldview on long lasting global politics.
How old do you think these people are? UK life expectancy is currently ~80, and people who have a "1940s worldview" are 81 at their youngest ("young adult" - 12 years old - when attitudes and beliefs start to become less fluid, in 1949). Over-80s aren't even 5% of our population - they're not exactly a decisive voting demographic.
 
There's so much wrong with this question it's hard to know what the start point of tackling it is.

We don't let children drink, smoke, drive, join the army, work full time, have sex or indeed do anything with any kind of wide-ranging responsibility or consequences because their bodies and brains are not yet fully formed. We don't even hold them responsible for their actions until they're 10, because they're not judged to be capable of understanding cause and effect, and right and wrong.

They don't magically all gain this ability at 18, but that's a convenient cutoff point where the majority of humans will be at a developmental plateau, as opposed to at 14 where a majority will still be in rapid development.

Given that they can't really do anything that has any responsibility, how are they - with no (or very little, at best) experience of anything - supposed to be thought capable to determine the best path for the entire nation, or decide on things like foreign policy, tax strategy and trade?


When I was 14, a lot of my peers (and I went to a private school) thought that all cats were girls and all dogs were boys. Today's 14-year olds would vote for Hitler - actual Hitler - if he wore a Manchester United shirt, swore on live TV, did the floss dance, called himself Hitler McHitlerface and referred to the PM as "Theresa GAY, LOL". No offence to any bright 14-year olds here - I've trusted my eldest girl's judgment more than most adults' since she was 8 - but you know that a lot of people your age are absolute asshats who talk in Spongebob memes and think literally any behaviour of any kind is okay if you're just "trolling" or it's "banter".


Good examples of why it was criminal that Scotland allowed 16 year olds to vote in it's last referendum
 
The Spectator magazine has started to cause a bit of a stir after one of its (rather far right) columnists wrote a piece entitled “In praise of Wehrmacht: The real story of D-Day is the heroism of the German soldiers who were vastly outnumbered but fought nobly and to the death.”

https://www.timesofisrael.com/respected-british-magazine-publishes-defense-of-nazi-german-troops/

I did a course on a similar subject during my final year at uni. The Wehrmacht, for those who aren't sure, was the official German armed forces from 1936-1945 linked with the German state and not to be confused with the Stürmabteiling (SA - private security lit. Stormtrooper division), Schutzstaffel (SS - security and surveillance group lit. Protection squad) or Waffen-SS (armed SS) which were paramilitary organisations directly linked with the NSDAP political party.

The accepted narrative in West Germany for many decades was that the German army was apolitical and only doing what it had to do to defend the integrity of the German state regardless of the political aims of the government. Discussion of any war crimes committed by the Luftwaffe (air force), Kriegsmarine (navy) or Heer (army), particularly the Heer, was a taboo subject and often outright dismissed without qualification; it was the Nazis and the SS who did all the bad stuff.

It is known that the Wehrmacht worked closely with the SS and Waffen-SS in some of Germany's war crimes such as the combat war crimes during the invasions of Poland, Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union whereas the SS and Waffen-SS were chiefly behind the civilian repression and extermination crimes against humanity. But it wasn't until the 1990s that this became an acceptable course of discussion and even then, it was still extremely controversial to suggest that the German army was doing more than just fighting a fight.

With regards to the article you're talking about, I guess it's down to the angle or perspective. In some contexts I would be more inclined to write in defence of the Wehrmacht. And that context is key because writing about a collective entity for a singular incident or about singular individuals is where things get blurred. Specific incidents and specific contexts.

But to actively praise them is probably not quite the right thing to do.
 
Can you imagine this happening even 5 years ago?

It’s insane

In The Spectator? Yes. Irreverent insanity (harmless or otherwise) is one of their major selling points.

But to actively praise them is probably not quite the right thing to do.

Quite - with the proviso (as you point out) that a lot of any story is to do with context. Once you're into a conscripted war with non-service punished in harsh terms (as it was in Germany and elsewhere at the time) the cannon-fodder-level troops such as the bulk of the Wehrmacht (with your exceptions noted) really had as little choice in the matter as "our own boys".
 
In The Spectator? Yes. Irreverent insanity (harmless or otherwise) is one of their major selling points.

Perhaps, but 5 years ago it would have been just insane (or maybe not, 5 years ago maybe isn't far enough back in time now...), but today it has a very real purpose of furthering extreme right-wing idea's
 
Perhaps, but 5 years ago it would have been just insane (or maybe not, 5 years ago maybe isn't far enough back in time now...),

I'll go for "not" out of those choices. In the specific events that the article provokes the reader into considering there's also a very specific context.

but today it has a very real purpose of furthering extreme right-wing idea's

Newsflash: The Spectator can further right-wing ideas. It's a position that some of their writers stand on very proudly.
 
Newsflash: The Spectator can further right-wing ideas. It's a position that some of their writers stand on very proudly.

I didn't say they couldn't... but the UK is now in the position of literally crippling it's self economically and politically thanks to right wing propaganda, scare tactics and lies. All the things the media and journalists should be protecting us from, but haven't and now can't.

Articles like that one are powerful tools, more so now than in any period I can remember. But hey, maybe that was just me living in ignorance... hell, I convinced we'd never be stupid enough believe the lies of racists and to vote to leave :lol:
 
Except the referendum was split almost exactly down the middle (48-52?) how can the majority of politicians and people then just accept this as “well now we have too”... no we don’t and on top of that the leave campaign was campaigned on with lies.

A vote is a vote, you can't keep redoing it because the result was close because a decision has to be made one way or another. Also, the remain campaign lied just as much if not more with all their scare mongering and predictions of doom, so frankly if anyone on either side listened to the campaigns and didn't find out information for themselves then that's their own fault.

If you oppose something just because half of people don’t agree dosnt mean you should just cave and accept it...

Unfortunately it's a compromise you have to make for a democracy to work, a country can't run if it keeps changing it's mind on what it wants to do every 5 seconds because no decisions are ever made and implemented.

In fact the idea that we should only leads more credence to the idea of how imbalanced the BBC and media in general, is...

If you think that the BBC in imbalanced for reflecting the fact that most people can accept when the result of a vote doesn't go their way, and doesn't fill half of their panels with extreme remain voters who want more referendums until we get the "right" result, then you are far more biased than they are.

I'm not saying they don't have the best intrest in mind. I do wonder if it should be as valid. Don't you think kids aged 14-18 have the best intrset of the country in mind? We don't let them vote?

Frankly I don't like the idea of letting most people vote as it is as a lot of people vote based on incredibly stupid reasons. But I really don't think it's a good idea letting people as young as 14 vote because what do they know? Not a lot of anything on average. I'm 22, fairly well educated and try to keep my opinions as factually based as possible and I'd probably even exclude myself voting on most things as I'm hardly enough of an expert to make a truly informed decision, at least to a degree I'd be satisfied with, I can only vote on best guess based on what I do know. I suppose you can vote on general principles but they will be difficult to apply to a lot of cases.

I am wondering if their opinion is as valid. Can you see how condescending it sounds that old people have the best intrest in mind and their opinion is relevant while their vote actually affects the people who would want it the other way.

Those people will die soon yet their actions will have lasting affects on the people who where forced into it.

Yes their opinion is valid, they have the right to vote on the future of the country that they have lived in for decades and on the future of their families. It's about as disrespectful as saying "🤬 your opinion, this is my country now, you can just shut up because you'll be dead soon anyway".

This is all ignoring the fact that ensuring that only people who will be affected by a vote can vote is impossible. Someone aged 70 years old could die in 5 years, or could die in 30, so how do you draw the line? On the flip side someone aged 18 could die before someone aged 80, so to say that old people shouldn't be allowed to vote because they might not be affected by is a ridiculous idea.

@Spurgy 777 The issue I have with the idea of a 'Remainer' pushing on with Brexit is that Brexit's best BEST case end game situation is having us abide by ALL the same EU law we do now, but have literally no power or input on those laws... that's the best possible end game, to simply be worse off than we already are...

Who voted for that? 52% of people didn't vote for that.

Meh, you think it's the best case scenario for Brexit, 52% of people would probably say otherwise. The best Brexit was presented as one where the UK parliament has the final say in all laws, where we have the power to make our own trade deals, control immigration from the EU and where were no longer paying the EU money for a trade agreement. Whether all of that is achievable or not is up for debate, but that is what people who voted Brexit seemed to be voting for and support.

It's not surprising at all that you think that the best Brexit is one where we practically don't leave the EU at all and essentially remain, as you said nothing would change other than we no longer get to vote so what would be the point in leaving if we were to do that? It's why I hate the idea of a "soft" Brexit, there's no such thing, it's just remaining without any say on EU laws.
 
I did a course on a similar subject during my final year at uni. The Wehrmacht, for those who aren't sure, was the official German armed forces from 1936-1945 linked with the German state and not to be confused with the Stürmabteiling (SA - private security lit. Stormtrooper division), Schutzstaffel (SS - security and surveillance group lit. Protection squad) or Waffen-SS (armed SS) which were paramilitary organisations directly linked with the NSDAP political party.

The accepted narrative in West Germany for many decades was that the German army was apolitical and only doing what it had to do to defend the integrity of the German state regardless of the political aims of the government. Discussion of any war crimes committed by the Luftwaffe (air force), Kriegsmarine (navy) or Heer (army), particularly the Heer, was a taboo subject and often outright dismissed without qualification; it was the Nazis and the SS who did all the bad stuff.

It is known that the Wehrmacht worked closely with the SS and Waffen-SS in some of Germany's war crimes such as the combat war crimes during the invasions of Poland, Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union whereas the SS and Waffen-SS were chiefly behind the civilian repression and extermination crimes against humanity. But it wasn't until the 1990s that this became an acceptable course of discussion and even then, it was still extremely controversial to suggest that the German army was doing more than just fighting a fight.

With regards to the article you're talking about, I guess it's down to the angle or perspective. In some contexts I would be more inclined to write in defence of the Wehrmacht. And that context is key because writing about a collective entity for a singular incident or about singular individuals is where things get blurred. Specific incidents and specific contexts.

But to actively praise them is probably not quite the right thing to do.
Quite agree, the story from both sides is something that can be done (and has been done - both factually and objectively - Antony Beevor springs to mind), that's not what the Spectator piece is however.

Not that its a massive surprise given the author.
 
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