Britain - The Official Thread

[Spurgy 777]

What solution? There is only one solution; We make into British law all the EU trade laws you are so desperate to escape.
What other solution is there?

I wouldn't consider that a solution for reasons I've said before (it isn't really leaving the EU if we do). But I don't have a solution and frankly why would I? It's not my job to solve every issue raised in the negotiations, but I trust (maybe naively I'll admit) that the governments working on the issues will do theirs and come up with a solution that works for all parties.

Except that it isn't a fact.

You keep saying that without actually backing it up in anyway, care to provide some sources? And not sure why you put that quote in spoilers as I didn't get my information from either campaign but instead from everyone I've ever seen talk about the issue on both sides of the argument. You are the first person I've ever seen say that we are able to do anything meaningful about immigration from the EU and you've yet to back it up, so you'll understand my skepticism.

So we need to leave the worlds biggest economy and the union which we do over 50% of our trade with, so we can trade with, no one else?

I can understand you cutting down my posts for simplicity, but please at least read what I say if you do and don't make strawmen out of them. I clearly said that the ability to trade with other countries isn't the issue, but that it's the cost of that trade that matters. If you want to play that game, why do we want a trade agreement with the EU if we can trade with them regardless?

Spoiler

That's right, to make trade easier and cheaper.

Why would it benefit the EU more to have a trade agreement with us than to not and impose tariffs on us? You've said there isn't anyone else you want to trade with, so the EU can get a better deal in trading with us, they can charge us more and pay us less. There member states become better off financially and no other EU state thinks leaving would actually be a good idea.

Because free trade makes it easier and cheaper for both EU and UK industries to sell goods, increasing sales and putting up tariffs would hurt both sides.

Why can't you?

It may well be a disastrous move to do so, but that doesn't mean it can't be done, nor does it mean that may not end up being the final option.

After all the model already exists, Gibraltar is not part of the EU customs union and has a hard border.

You sort of answered your own question, you can technically do it but it's not a good idea and shouldn't really be an option. Technically you could nuke the whole of Ireland and forget the whole thing but you won't see me asking "why can't you?" as it's obviously not a good solution.

 

[baldgye]

But I don't have a solution and frankly why would I? It's not my job to solve every issue raised in the negotiations, but I trust (maybe naively I'll admit) that the governments working on the issues will do theirs and come up with a solution that works for all parties.

You don't have a solution, the leaders in both the Republic and Northern Ireland don't have solutions, but maybe the politicians in London do? No wait, they don't which is why this is a monumental problem.

You keep saying that without actually backing it up in anyway, care to provide some sources?

How can I provide sources on laws that don't exist? Why don't you instead list the EU laws that prevent us from managing our own immigration. They seem to have been enough to convince you to vote (I'm making an assumption here that you voted to leave) so you must know them.
But because I'm a great guy some light reading on the subject (just want to also point out that EU migrants are a net positive to the economy)

If you want to play that game, why do we want a trade agreement with the EU if we can trade with them regardless?

Because we cannot simply trade with the EU if we want too. The EU is a massive political entity that's set up to help it's member states.

Because free trade makes it easier and cheaper for both EU and UK industries to sell goods, increasing sales and putting up tariffs would hurt both sides.

Why is it easier? Why would you even be an EU member state if you could get free trade deals? Why would the EU charging us more while being able to make our exports less valuable hurt the EU? Yes they would hurt slightly from our absence but the other member states could prosper. Germany has so much money in the bank through their own productivity they don't know what to do with it, literally.

 

[PeterJB]

I still don't think it's fair to dismiss the opinions of a non-voter out of hand when they still pay taxes.

There's not much of an opinion to work with if they remain silent.

 

[Scaff]

You sort of answered your own question, you can technically do it but it's not a good idea and shouldn't really be an option. Technically you could nuke the whole of Ireland and forget the whole thing but you won't see me asking "why can't you?" as it's obviously not a good solution.

Brexits not a good solution to the UKs issues with the EU, that's still happening (and doesn't need false equivalency to illustrate the point).

The fact is that none of the options the UK has offered in regards to the border are workable, as such a hard border is very much a real possibility, regardless of how bad an outcome it is.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Out of interest, how many people here that are throwing the 'trade deal' phrase around actually have first hand experience of the infrastructure and administration involved in not having a trade deal? I don't know that much, but I can only imagine the chaos the massive increase in load on both could cause - irrespective of the net £/€ amounts on government spreadsheets.

 

[baldgye]

Out of interest, how many people here that are throwing the 'trade deal' phrase around actually have first hand experience of the infrastructure and administration involved in not having a trade deal? I don't know that much, but I can only imagine the chaos the massive increase in load on both could cause - irrespective of the net £/€ amounts on government spreadsheets.

I think this is a good interview to share (apologies, it's not my upload so the intro music etc isn't my choice);

 

[TenEightyOne]

leaders in both the Republic and Northern Ireland don't have solutions, but maybe the politicians in London do? No wait, they don't

To add to that difficulty the incumbent government relies on some mad, swivel-eyed Northern Irish loons to stay in position.

I wouldn't consider that a solution for reasons I've said before (it isn't really leaving the EU if we do). But I don't have a solution and frankly why would I? It's not my job to solve every issue raised in the negotiations, but I trust (maybe naively I'll admit) that the governments working on the issues will do theirs and come up with a solution that works for all parties.

Until the late 1990s there was a hard border. They've probably still got the bollards, easy to put it back up

 

[Liquid]

Until the late 1990s there was a hard border. They've probably still got the bollards, easy to put it back up

Let's just hope the sniper nests have been thoroughly destroyed.

 

[Lizard]

I wouldn't consider that a solution for reasons I've said before (it isn't really leaving the EU if we do). But I don't have a solution and frankly why would I? It's not my job to solve every issue raised in the negotiations, but I trust (maybe naively I'll admit) that the governments working on the issues will do theirs and come up with a solution that works for all parties.

And yet you have always been firm with me that you don't trust the government one bit no matter which party.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Do you disagree that the statement "more than half of the country voted for Brexit" is misleading?

"More than half of the country voted for Brexit" just isn't true.

I disagree, yes. It's only the losers that point to turnout figures or some "flaw" in the system. Those that voted are the only ones that count. Whoever chose not to vote is irrelevant. That's how elections and votes work in a democracy.

 

[UKMikey]

I disagree, yes. It's only the losers that point to turnout figures or some "flaw" in the system. Those that voted are the only ones that count. Whoever chose not to vote is irrelevant. That's how elections and votes work 8n a democracy.

If the opinions of the people who didn't vote are irrelevant and the opinions of those who voted on the losing side are irrelevant then how about the opinions of those who voted on the winning side and regret it?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...hought-uk-stay-in-eu-remain-win-a7102516.html

If they are irrelevant too then what we're left with is an almighty mess in which only some of the people who voted to leave are getting what they want. We can ignore what everybody else thinks but it won't make things any easier going forward. No wonder Cameron jumped ship and slung his hook.

Fortunately your opinion as a non British national is even less relevant to the situation.

 

[Touring Mars]

I still don't think it's fair to dismiss the opinions of a non-voter out of hand when they still pay taxes.

It's not so much that people dismiss the opinions of others out of hand simply because they didn't vote - it is more that one cannot expect one's opinion to count for anything (especially in a simple two-option referendum question) if you elect not to vote.

What is considerably more disturbing is when people who have lived, worked and paid taxes in the UK for many years are denied the right to vote (e.g. the 2+ million EU nationals working in the UK) while UK expats working (and paying taxes) abroad did get to vote. That to me is patently unfair and there is little doubt that the outcome of the referendum would have been very different if that situation had been reversed.

 

[baldgye]

It's not so much that people dismiss the opinions of others out of hand simply because they didn't vote - it is more that one cannot expect one's opinion to count for anything (especially in a simple two-option referendum question) if you elect not to vote.

What is considerably more disturbing is when people who have lived, worked and paid taxes in the UK for many years are denied the right to vote (e.g. the 2+ million EU nationals working in the UK) while UK expats working (and paying taxes) abroad did get to vote. That to me is patently unfair and there is little doubt that the outcome of the referendum would have been very different if that situation had been reversed.

Just a question, kind of related to this, but not about Brexit... Do you think all UK nationals should have had a vote in the Scottish Independence vote?
It's something that I'm not really sure how I feel about, but as a Scott maybe you have a more relevant opinion/stance on it?

 

[Touring Mars]

Just a question, kind of related to this, but not about Brexit... Do you think all UK nationals should have had a vote in the Scottish Independence vote?
It's something that I'm not really sure how I feel about, but as a Scott maybe you have a more relevant opinion/stance on it?

Tough question - I wouldn't be averse to the idea that the rest of the UK got a vote, but I would imagine that the pro-Independence camp would claim it defeated the purpose of the vote - practically by definition 'self-determination' is all about ignoring the wishes of everyone else!

 

[TheCracker]

Just a question, kind of related to this, but not about Brexit... Do you think all UK nationals should have had a vote in the Scottish Independence vote?

That would have been like asking the rest of the EU to vote in the brexit referendum. If the Eurovision is anything to go by, the 'leave' vote would have been a landslide.

 

[MatskiMonk]

That would have been like asking the rest of the EU to vote in the brexit referendum. If the Eurovision is anything to go by, the 'leave' vote would have been a landslide.

These days I'd almost rather such things were decided by singing competitions... can't seem to trust politicians or the general public to get it right!

 

[baldgye]

That would have been like asking the rest of the EU to vote in the brexit referendum. If the Eurovision is anything to go by, the 'leave' vote would have been a landslide.

Yeah it would I agree, tho logistically easier haha... idk it was, as an English chap with parents who live in Scotland, something I thought about during the campaign.

The English get a decent amount of stick from the Scotts, rightly and/or wrongly. So it would have been interesting if we had been included in the vote, least from my English way of thinking. But I’ve not had chance to speak to a Scottish person about it who can’t stop screaming about how awful the English are, so I was just seeing what his opinion was.

These days I'd almost rather such things were decided by singing competitions... can't seem to trust politicians or the general public to get it right!

I think the bigger issues is the power and control billionaire’s have through the media empires they own.
If newspapers reported accurately, fairly and went only after the truth and facts. We wouldn’t have a generation who was brought up resenting Europe, resenting asylum seekers and immigrants.

Instead we have people, similar to those in this thread who spout reasons for Brexit that are simply not true, but they hold to.

 

[Famine]

The English get a decent amount of stick from the Scotts, rightly and/or wrongly. So it would have been interesting if we had been included in the vote, least from my English way of thinking.

Self-determination doesn't work if other people are doing the determining.

 

[baldgye]

Self-determination doesn't work if other people are doing the determining.

Like I said, I wasn’t pushing for it. Just wanted a Scott’s opinion on something I’d thought off on the run up to the vote.

I swung hugely from wanting us to just grow up and learn to get along with one another to, ok fine, if you want to ruin your economy go for it... only... of course... we then went and did that to ourselves

 

[MatskiMonk]

If newspapers reported accurately, fairly and went only after the truth and facts. We wouldn’t have a generation who was brought up resenting Europe, resenting asylum seekers and immigrants.

Instead we have people, similar to those in this thread who spout reasons for Brexit that are simply not true, but they hold to.

That might have been true a decade ago, these days Social Media is as detrimental as Mainstream Media IMHO. None of the people that work for us (most of who voted Leave) read newspapers, or watch the news on TV - because as with politics, they know it's all bull**** and feel disassociated from it... but they do sit about heads down, spoon feeding themselves on social media at every chance they get, which they seemingly gulp down, and regurgitate via the share button.

Having said that, to contradict myself, given the voting demographic by age showed that it was the 50+ year old population that wanted to leave, maybe it is the older population being manipulated by traditional mainstream media, and the facebooking generations aren't as bad as I think they are!

 

[Mr Tree]

That might have been true a decade ago, these days Social Media is as detrimental as Mainstream Media IMHO. None of the people that work for us (most of who voted Leave) read newspapers, or watch the news on TV - because as with politics, they know it's all bull**** and feel disassociated from it... but they do sit about heads down, spoon feeding themselves on social media at every chance they get, which they seemingly gulp down, and regurgitate via the share button.

Having said that, to contradict myself, given the voting demographic by age showed that it was the 50+ year old population that wanted to leave, maybe it is the older population being manipulated by traditional mainstream media, and the facebooking generations aren't as bad as I think they are!

Interesting. I always felt social media was ruining the 'collective truth'.
Would milenials and younger have a more sensitive trigger for plain fake news habing been brought up in this connected world? I've read the younger generations have a way easier time distinguishing news from infomercials.

 

[baldgye]

That might have been true a decade ago, these days Social Media is as detrimental as Mainstream Media IMHO. None of the people that work for us (most of who voted Leave) read newspapers, or watch the news on TV - because as with politics, they know it's all bull**** and feel disassociated from it... but they do sit about heads down, spoon feeding themselves on social media at every chance they get, which they seemingly gulp down, and regurgitate via the share button.

Having said that, to contradict myself, given the voting demographic by age showed that it was the 50+ year old population that wanted to leave, maybe it is the older population being manipulated by traditional mainstream media, and the facebooking generations aren't as bad as I think they are!

Yeah I think that’s it.
Also, what is it that drives social media ‘news’ and ‘info’ posts? People that grew up, or grew up in an environment that the newspapers perpetuated. Scaff hit on the key arguments of Brexit and they were lies, yet he said himself they seemed to be common place ‘facts’... because no one in the mainstream media (BBC included) did their job and actually accurately reported on this insanity. Instead they just gave them platforms to spread their lies and hatered.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Would milenials and younger have a more sensitive trigger for plain fake news habing been brought up in this connected world? I've read the younger generations have a way easier time distinguishing news from infomercials.

I think it's more likely related to how specific issues are put across and how they relate to younger and older generations. The NHS campaign that 'Leave' ran was bound to appeal to older people that probably have more interaction with Healthcare and the NHS. If they'd had promised £375,000,000 per week to make housing more affordable, or to provide more free university places, perhaps younger people might have been more tempted to vote leave. So I don't think it's that older people fall or the lies more, it's just maybe that the lies were targeted at them.

It could be that younger people do have a better nose for fake news, and therefore were put-off by the low-blow campaigning on both sides and chose not to vote. Younger people seemed to want to Remain, but less of them voted - perhaps they are apathetic because political campaigning is all about lies and propaganda.

As another example of 'who do you trust', I get one of these every year from the government to tell me how my income tax has been spent...

.. I look at that, and I think... what planet are people on if they think diverting money from Europe to the NHS will make a difference... we are crippled by our welfare system...

... but, I haven't fact checked that, so for all I know, this is being reported in this fashion to manipulate my opinion.

 

[Tired Tyres]

I think it's more likely related to how specific issues are put across and how they relate to younger and older generations. The NHS campaign that 'Leave' ran was bound to appeal to older people that probably have more interaction with Healthcare and the NHS. If they'd had promised £375,000,000 per week to make housing more affordable, or to provide more free university places, perhaps younger people might have been more tempted to vote leave. So I don't think it's that older people fall or the lies more, it's just maybe that the lies were targeted at them.

It could be that younger people do have a better nose for fake news, and therefore were put-off by the low-blow campaigning on both sides and chose not to vote. Younger people seemed to want to Remain, but less of them voted - perhaps they are apathetic because political campaigning is all about lies and propaganda.

As another example of 'who do you trust', I get one of these every year from the government to tell me how my income tax has been spent...

.. I look at that, and I think... what planet are people on if they think diverting money from Europe to the NHS will make a difference... we are crippled by our welfare system...

... but, I haven't fact checked that, so for all I know, this is being reported in this fashion to manipulate my opinion.

Oh they could fix that easily. They just wouldn't survive the process. Image a political saying "starting now, those of you with children will no longer receive child support."

 

[baldgye]

Oh they could fix that easily. They just wouldn't survive the process. Image a political saying "starting now, those of you with children will no longer receive child support."

What if, you change the word ‘children’, to ‘disability’...

 

[Mr Tree]

I think it's more likely related to how specific issues are put across and how they relate to younger and older generations. The NHS campaign that 'Leave' ran was bound to appeal to older people that probably have more interaction with Healthcare and the NHS. If they'd had promised £375,000,000 per week to make housing more affordable, or to provide more free university places, perhaps younger people might have been more tempted to vote leave. So I don't think it's that older people fall or the lies more, it's just maybe that the lies were targeted at them.

It could be that younger people do have a better nose for fake news, and therefore were put-off by the low-blow campaigning on both sides and chose not to vote. Younger people seemed to want to Remain, but less of them voted - perhaps they are apathetic because political campaigning is all about lies and propaganda.

As another example of 'who do you trust', I get one of these every year from the government to tell me how my income tax has been spent...

.. I look at that, and I think... what planet are people on if they think diverting money from Europe to the NHS will make a difference... we are crippled by our welfare system...

... but, I haven't fact checked that, so for all I know, this is being reported in this fashion to manipulate my opinion.

What constitutes welfare? Where does it become health? What's state pensions are there private pensions?

If welfare only is people who don't have a job without a medical reason behind it. Damn that number would be high. If it involves child support and extra help to go to school ('scholarships') yeah that would be a large chunk of money well spent imho.

What if, you change the word ‘children’, to ‘disability’...

Is that welfare or health?

 

[Tired Tyres]

What if, you change the word ‘children’, to ‘disability’...

Because I choose the biggest cost in welfare?

Anyway did you miss the government attempts to reclassify disabled people to get out of giving them money?

 

[Johnnypenso]

If the opinions of the people who didn't vote are irrelevant and the opinions of those who voted on the losing side are irrelevant then how about the opinions of those who voted on the winning side and regret it?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...hought-uk-stay-in-eu-remain-win-a7102516.html

If they are irrelevant too then what we're left with is an almighty mess in which only some of the people who voted to leave are getting what they want. We can ignore what everybody else thinks but it won't make things any easier going forward. No wonder Cameron jumped ship and slung his hook.

Who said the opinions of the people who voted on the losing side are irrelevant? You should be quoting the person that said that instead of me.

Fortunately your opinion as a non British national is even less relevant to the situation.

Fortunately your opinion is completely irrelevant since the votes have been cast and the decision made. It's all just crying in your beer now.

 

[baldgye]

Because I choose the biggest cost in welfare?

Anyway did you miss the government attempts to reclassify disabled people to get out of giving them money?

Sorry, it was a bit of a joke. The government have already cut funding all over the place for people with disabilities and other than those affected, few cared.

Fortunately your opinion is completely irrelevant since the votes have been cast and the decision made. It's all just crying in your beer now.

No it isn't.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Sorry, it was a bit of a joke. The government have already cut funding all over the place for people with disabilities and other than those affected, few cared.

I know. Mistreat animals and people get upset. Mistreat the disabled and nobody notices...