Britain - The Official Thread

[Liquid]

Britain before had remained fairly static in terms of immigration for centuries before that. Even the Norman conquest only led to 5% actually being Norman in England.

These two sentences contradict each other. If you don't like immigration to the island of Prydain then you don't like swarms of Anglo-Saxons coming over, imposing their language and imposing their laws on the natives, taking their land and killing those who disagree with them.

Sorry but you cannot have it both ways. At least you've admitted where your arbitrary "things were great when..." line is in Windrush.

 

[Biggles]

Post Windrush.

Britain before had remained fairly static in terms of immigration for centuries before that. Even the Norman conquest only led to 5% actually being Norman in England. If Britain was so multicultural before the second world war, why did a 1968 Gallup poll find that 83% of people thought contemporary controls on immigration were not strict enough?

--------

In other news a fairly big report has come out about immigration to the UK and its effects, and it won't make easy reading for Kippers but sure to give @baldgye some comfort:

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-much-needed-antidote-to-dog-whistle-politics

Immigration report is much-needed antidote to dog-whistle politics

I don't get your point.

The Normans "immigrated" to the England, effectively destroyed the existing oligarchy & imposed their own. This is what the British did in colonizing many other parts of the world in later centuries ... then, in the second half of the 20th century some of the colonized immigrated to Britain (although clearly not destroying the existing oligarchy).

 

[Liquid]

some of the colonized immigrated to Britain

*were invited to

The HMT Windrush boat docked in Jamaica to pick up people who were taking advantage of settlement packages to the UK and the 1948 Nationalities & Citizenship Act which offered all "colonists" UK citizenship if they lived in the UK.

 

[ExigeEvan]

Even the Norman conquest only led to 5% actually being Norman in England.

5%!? That's huge!

You realise only 5% of English population identify as Asian/British Asian.

Only 2.3% of England as Black/Black British.

Only 3% Muslim and 1.1% Sikh.

You're trying to use populist surveys to prove something that the statistics just don't support.

 

[Touring Mars]

British music legend Chas Hodges of Chas & Dave fame has passed away...



When I worked at the University of London, I used to frequent the staff bar, especially on a Friday night. But, to our collective dismay, the Mathematics department decided that the staff bar ought to be where they had their weekly departmental meeting... on a Friday night. This wouldn't have been too bad but for their demand that no music was to be played during their meeting, which caused indignation among the bar staff and regulars. The ultimate arbiter was the Head of Physics, who also hosted his group meetings in the staff bar (albeit on a Tuesday, and he didn't object to the music), but he was also something of an alcoholic, so he sympathised with us to some extent too. We came to a compromise that music could be played from 7pm onward, whether the meeting was over or not. A few weeks into this arrangement and things were getting a bit tense, as at about 7.10pm, we were asked to turn the music off again. My mate, the bar manager, was an avid fan of Chas & Dave and decided to not only ignore their request, but to put 'Snooker Loopy' by Chas & Dave on repeat - for an hour The Maths department were so infuriated that they reported him to the Head of Physics, but he sided with us and told them that they would be better off holding their meetings in the nearby Wetherspoon's pub, as they didn't play music. We never saw them again.

 

[UKMikey]

British music legend Chas Hodges of Chas & Dave fame has passed away...



When I worked at the University of London, I used to frequent the staff bar, especially on a Friday night. But, to our collective dismay, the Mathematics department decided that the staff bar ought to be where they had their weekly departmental meeting... on a Friday night. This wouldn't have been too bad but for their demand that no music was to be played during their meeting, which caused indignation among the bar staff and regulars. The ultimate arbiter was the Head of Physics, who also hosted his group meetings in the staff bar (albeit on a Tuesday, and he didn't object to the music), but he was also something of an alcoholic, so he sympathised with us to some extent too. We came to a compromise that music could be played from 7pm onward, whether the meeting was over or not. A few weeks into this arrangement and things were getting a bit tense, as at about 7.10pm, we were asked to turn the music off again. My mate, the bar manager, was an avid fan of Chas & Dave and decided to not only ignore their request, but to put 'Snooker Loopy' by Chas & Dave on repeat - for an hour The Maths department were so infuriated that they reported him to the Head of Physics, but he sided with us and told them that they would be better off holding their meetings in the nearby Wetherspoon's pub, as they didn't play music. We never saw them again.

Humanity's Greatest Minds thread is --> that way...

Seriously though, RIP Chas.

 

[HenrySwanson]

These two sentences contradict each other. If you don't like immigration to the island of Prydain then you don't like swarms of Anglo-Saxons coming over, imposing their language and imposing their laws on the natives, taking their land and killing those who disagree with them.

Sorry but you cannot have it both ways. At least you've admitted where your arbitrary "things were great when..." line is in Windrush.

I don't see how that's true?

One is saying immigration hardly happened in the centuries before Windrush (unless you have evidence to the contrary) and another is saying that the Norman conquest, something that happened virtually a millenium before it and arguably the biggest event in the isle's history led to up to only 1/20 of the population being of that people.

I don't see where people see this great mix of international cultures pre-Windrush?

 

[TenEightyOne]

the Norman conquest, something that happened virtually a millenium before it and arguably the biggest event in the isle's history led to up to only 1/20 of the population being of that people.

That's being a little disingenuous though... William's claim to the throne through previous Viking and Anglo settlements was a valid one - so while the figures for Frankish Vikingrs and Norse Vikingrs are separate they're part of the same movement, bloodlines, clans and Earldoms.

I don't see where people see this great mix of international cultures pre-Windrush?

In the history and the archaeology, mostly. The Roman occupation saw many settlers from across Europe as whole families would move to military/trade settlements. In the years following their withdrawal, trade (with the inevitable accompanying settlement) took place with many Mediterranean, Baltic and Nordic cultures. As time went the influx of Angles was enough that they declared a new country in the south of Britain. By the late 800s the Vikingr sighting raids turned into the arrival of a 'Great Army' which settled en masse, with families, alongside major Anglo-Saxon settlements and along main roads. The other Vikingrs were, of course, down in Northman's Land (Normandy) bribing Charles the Simple to let them settle in case his head fell off. Eventually the Frankish Normen made their way across the English Channel to take the power that they considered Harold Godwinsson to have dishonestly seized. Trade continued unabated, of course, England and Britain still had things to sell and things they needed to buy - ports remained the melting pot of transient cultures that they remained until the late 20th Century.

The Flemish and the Dutch interchanged with populations from the Thames to the Humber (much of East Yorkshire owes its existence to their land management skills). Millions of people in Britain are of Irish descent, an immigration that has gone on for hundreds and hundreds of years. About 1% of the entire population by the end of the 1600s was Huguenot, by the end of the 17th there were around 40,000 Africans in Britain (usually take to mean Sub-Saharan). By the 1800s a new breed of foreigner was invented - the American. About 100,000 of them arrived. And ze Germans. The ruling house of Hanover made the British court and interesting place to be and many moved to Britain for work or society. Transient Jewish populations, Chinese populations, Roma populations... not as numerous but the list goes on and on.

So what about those insular villages in nowhere-land? They exist today. The other day Mrs. Ten interviewed an old chap who happily explained that he'd never left his Holderness village except for once when he bought a tractor. He rode a cart horse to the sale (in the next village) and brought the horse back tethered to the tractor. That was thirty years ago, he hasn't needed to go out for anything else since. There are lots of people/places like that and they're quintessentially of their own culture and part of - not just 'British' culture - rural culture pretty much anywhere in Europe. There are whole communities analagous to that idea. Other people interviewed noted that they'd lived there thirty years and were still "offcomed'uns", or foreigners.

Just because there are places like that doesn't mean that there aren't towns or cities, particularly coastal/trade settlements, that haven't seen a lot of very different cultures over hundreds and hundreds of years. To imply that it really begins with Windrush seems mad.

 

[Liquid]

I don't see where people see this great mix of international cultures pre-Windrush?

Even 1,400 years after the Angles and Saxons first invaded Britain, the Welsh still don't see the English as being "the same people".

 

[ExigeEvan]

I don't see where people see this great mix of international cultures pre-Windrush?

Have you never watched Peeky Blinders?

 

[HenrySwanson]

5%!? That's huge!

You realise only 5% of English population identify as Asian/British Asian.

Only 2.3% of England as Black/Black British.

Only 3% Muslim and 1.1% Sikh.

You're trying to use populist surveys to prove something that the statistics just don't support.

Just taking the Muslim population:

According to the 2011 Census, 2.7 million Muslims live in England and Wales, up by almost 1 million from the previous census, where they form 5.0% of the general population[2] and 9.1% of children under the age of five.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_England

So....more than the Norman conquest, from one religious group alone
And it's data from 2011.....care to bet if it's increased or decreased since then?

That's being a little disingenuous though... William's claim to the throne through previous Viking and Anglo settlements was a valid one - so while the figures for Frankish Vikingrs and Norse Vikingrs are separate they're part of the same movement, bloodlines, clans and Earldoms.



In the history and the archaeology, mostly. The Roman occupation saw many settlers from across Europe as whole families would move to military/trade settlements. In the years following their withdrawal, trade (with the inevitable accompanying settlement) took place with many Mediterranean, Baltic and Nordic cultures. As time went the influx of Angles was enough that they declared a new country in the south of Britain. By the late 800s the Vikingr sighting raids turned into the arrival of a 'Great Army' which settled en masse, with families, alongside major Anglo-Saxon settlements and along main roads. The other Vikingrs were, of course, down in Northman's Land (Normandy) bribing Charles the Simple to let them settle in case his head fell off. Eventually the Frankish Normen made their way across the English Channel to take the power that they considered Harold Godwinsson to have dishonestly seized. Trade continued unabated, of course, England and Britain still had things to sell and things they needed to buy - ports remained the melting pot of transient cultures that they remained until the late 20th Century.

The Flemish and the Dutch interchanged with populations from the Thames to the Humber (much of East Yorkshire owes its existence to their land management skills). Millions of people in Britain are of Irish descent, an immigration that has gone on for hundreds and hundreds of years. About 1% of the entire population by the end of the 1600s was Huguenot, by the end of the 17th there were around 40,000 Africans in Britain (usually take to mean Sub-Saharan). By the 1800s a new breed of foreigner was invented - the American. About 100,000 of them arrived. And ze Germans. The ruling house of Hanover made the British court and interesting place to be and many moved to Britain for work or society. Transient Jewish populations, Chinese populations, Roma populations... not as numerous but the list goes on and on.

So what about those insular villages in nowhere-land? They exist today. The other day Mrs. Ten interviewed an old chap who happily explained that he'd never left his Holderness village except for once when he bought a tractor. He rode a cart horse to the sale (in the next village) and brought the horse back tethered to the tractor. That was thirty years ago, he hasn't needed to go out for anything else since. There are lots of people/places like that and they're quintessentially of their own culture and part of - not just 'British' culture - rural culture pretty much anywhere in Europe. There are whole communities analagous to that idea. Other people interviewed noted that they'd lived there thirty years and were still "offcomed'uns", or foreigners.

Just because there are places like that doesn't mean that there aren't towns or cities, particularly coastal/trade settlements, that haven't seen a lot of very different cultures over hundreds and hundreds of years. To imply that it really begins with Windrush seems mad.

But of significant number?

If we are talking of madness, would it be fair to ask if multiculturalism as it is now existed in the centuries before Windrush - that 35% of the people who worked in London had been born abroad as it was the case in 2007?

My main argument was that multiculturalism made, for good and bad modern Britain, and before it the country was a largely stable group of people.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Just taking the Muslim population:

According to the 2011 Census, 2.7 million Muslims live in England and Wales, up by almost 1 million from the previous census, where they form 5.0% of the general population[2] and 9.1% of children under the age of five.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_England

In 1911 half of the world's entire muslim population lived in the British Empire, an important driver in the movement of people's. Islam has a history of contact with England/Britain going back over a thousand years. Why the obsession with religion? Is it a driver of immigration?

So....more than the Norman conquest, from one religious group alone

As per my earlier comments: many of those friendly to the invaders (e.g. from the same families or historic jarldoms) were already here. It was a consolidation of power, not an entire replacement. Godwinsson betrayed William the Bastard and was arguably the one who'd wrongly seized power. Just counting the number of Frankish Normen who arrived is pretty pointless.

If we are talking of madness, would it be fair to ask if multiculturalism as it is now existed in the centuries before Windrush - that 35% of the people who worked in London had been born abroad as it was the case in 2007?

As I said earlier we know that migrating populations largely settled around large ports or trade centres. There's no accurate distribution picture but then we're not really concentrating on London. London wasn't always the capital city.

My main argument was that multiculturalism made, for good and bad modern Britain

Yes.

and before it the country was a largely stable group of people.

No.

 

[baldgye]

Just to change the topic to something, a bit more uplifting...

UK intelligence agency admits unlawfully spying on (the registered charity) 'Privacy International'

 

[Touring Mars]

One of the Salisbury tourists suspects in the attempted murder of the Skripals and the murder of Dawn Sturgess is identified as a highly decorated Russian war hero...

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-...irov-identified-gru-colonel-anatoliy-chepiga/

 

[baldgye]

One of the Salisbury tourists suspects in the attempted murder of the Skripals and the murder of Dawn Sturgess is identified as a highly decorated Russian war hero...

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-...irov-identified-gru-colonel-anatoliy-chepiga/

*remembers a certain Russian memebers post*
But if only we knew WHICH Alexander!

 

[baldgye]

Kinda linked to @Touring Mars post above... with Russian meddling in elections, murdering British citizens with chemical weapons and trying to murder others on British soil... do we think that the UK could fall victim to Russia's cyber army?

I read though this insane and terrifying Wired article and I can't see why they wouldn't. Especially after the UK publicly called them out for there use of chemical weapons on British soil... and given the fact that the sanctions for them carrying out cyber attacks have been, small.

 

[Lizard]

So.
Things we don't have enough money for.
NHS.
Keeping people off the breadline.

Things we do have money for.
1bn pounds to keep your party in government.
120 million pounds in having a Brexit festival.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...great-exhibition-queen-victoria-a8561021.html

 

[adamp93]

Jacob Rees-Mogg is staying at our hotel during the party conference. There's a small but very real chance I'll get sacked for calling him a four letter word.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Jacob Rees-Mogg is staying at our hotel during the party conference. There's a small but very real chance I'll get sacked for calling him a four letter word.

His surname is two of them, and they're pretty offensive in combination.

 

[Lizard]

Jacob Rees-Mogg is staying at our hotel during the party conference. There's a small but very real chance I'll get sacked for calling him a four letter word.

Just send the cleaner in at 3am.

 

[Touring Mars]

A quick question about the AUP - given that videos of fatal car crashes are not allowed in the Motorsport forum, does that mean we will not be allowed to post videos of Theresa May's conference address in here?

 

[Tired Tyres]

Jacob Rees-Mogg is staying at our hotel during the party conference. There's a small but very real chance I'll get sacked for calling him a four letter word.

Reminds me when Portillo was in govenment. He visited my workplace. Fortunately I found out in advance and booked the day off! I really didn't want to risk it.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Reminds me when Portillo was in govenment. He visited my workplace. Fortunately I found out in advance and booked the day off! I really didn't want to risk it.

I served John Prescott his lunch in a local pub back when he was the Shadow Transport Secretary. Unfortunately some diversions must have been in place as the food was a little late.

 

[UKMikey]

I served John Prescott his lunch in a local pub back when he was the Shadow Transport Secretary. Unfortunately some diversions must have been in place as the food was a little late.

Good thing he didn't lose his temper and decide to punch you out Clarkson-style.

 

[adamp93]

Just send the cleaner in at 3am.

He asked for newspapers, I could bang the door to let him know they've arrived at 5 o'clock.

 

[baldgye]

I've only had one run-in with a politician and it was while I was working in a newsagents. Our local MP Bill Cash had just done something worthy of being in a sandwich board advertising The Sentinel, it was something like CASH GETS PAID or something silly like that. And he wanted it. It came with great satisfaction that I told him that it was advertising one of the products we sell, and until the end of the day (when it was due to rain and be ruined) it couldn't be removed. He was most upset, when he left several of the people in the shop asked me if I knew who he was...


Also found out there was a massive anti-Brexit rally in Brum this weekend that I managed to sleep through, prob for the best

 

[baldgye]

Boris now back on message, positioning himself for Tory leadership...





what an unbearable **** he is

From the Tory conference;

Responding to Johnson's speech, former Brexit minister Steve Baker says he was "very proud to be there to listen to it".

He says: "The great thing about Boris is he's our best evangelist for Conservatism bar none. My goodness, doesn't the country need some joy right now?

"And that's what Boris brings, some joy, some hope, some optimism and a clear articulation of what it is we need to do, so I'm glad he made the speech."

 

[Tired Tyres]

We have GOT to have Boris as PM. It would be hilarious.

 

[TenEightyOne]

We have GOT to have Boris as PM. It would be hilarious.

No.

 

[Tired Tyres]

No.

Yes. For giggles.