Britain - The Official Thread

[mustafur]

Hate crime laws are a total joke.

Not a fan of UK policing speech in public and online, which clowns wanted this.

 

[DG_Silva]

As totally reprehensible as it is, how could it be considered a hate crime? There's no race/creed/religion being attacked or ridiculed - just a bunch of prats who should know better.

 

[Robin]

Tasteless? yes... a hate crime, not so much. There are always some twits mocking various disasters.

 

[Touring Mars]

As totally reprehensible as it is, how could it be considered a hate crime? There's no race/creed/religion being attacked or ridiculed - just a bunch of prats who should know better.

I'm not so sure about that - one person clearly makes a reference to "ninjas", which could be construed as a racist phrase. The person who posted it online could well be in trouble, as arguably that was the action that has caused the upset. I'm all for free speech and I don't believe that offending people is a crime, but this goes well beyond merely causing offence - I would imagine that survivors and families/friends of the victims would be deeply hurt by this.

 

[boiltheocean]

I’d like to know what the chances of someone involved with Grenfell seeing this would be if you took the mainstream media out of the equation. How much of the hurt could be attributed to them cashing in on public outrage?

 

[Touring Mars]

I’d like to know what the chances of someone involved with Grenfell seeing this would be if you took the mainstream media out of the equation. How much of the hurt could be attributed to them cashing in on public outrage?

I think we are fast approaching a point where the mainstream media ought to ignore stories that boil down to 'Idiots post idiotic video on Youtube'.

 

[Famine]

I'm not so sure about that - one person clearly makes a reference to "ninjas", which could be construed as a racist phrase. The person who posted it online could well be in trouble, as arguably that was the action that has caused the upset. I'm all for free speech and I don't believe that offending people is a crime, but this goes well beyond merely causing offence - I would imagine that survivors and families/friends of the victims would be deeply hurt by this.

I remember when trying to cut the head off an MP was a terrorist action, but apparently that one's now entirely fine for a Guy effigy...

... I guess it's okay if it's an unpopular MP.

 

[boiltheocean]

I think we are fast approaching a point where the mainstream media ought to ignore stories that boil down to 'Idiots post idiotic video on Youtube'.

It feels like we’re only just getting started in this area. It’s cheap journalism and television (ITV have given a clip show a 9pm Friday slot ffs) that a lot of people will watch.

If we want change we need to vote with our wallets, televisions and pageviews.

 

[baldgye]

I think we are fast approaching a point where the mainstream media ought to ignore stories that boil down to 'Idiots post idiotic video on Youtube'.

I think we’re well beyond that

 

[Dotini]

The Wall Street Journal reports knife attacks rise in Britain.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/britain-struggles-with-rise-in-knife-attacks-1541759400

If you are ever confronted by a person with a knife, by far the best advice is to run away as fast as you can. In the very unfortunate event you cannot run, here is some basic practical advice in regards to knife fighting:
- Cover your defensive hand with a glove, hat, jacket, scarf or other piece of protection.
- Use your feet actively to circle away from the assailant's knife hand.
- With your own weapon, strike at the assailant's hand, arm or face. Use a cutting or slicing action, not stabbing.

 

[UKMikey]

The Wall Street Journal reports knife attacks rise in Britain.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/britain-struggles-with-rise-in-knife-attacks-1541759400

If you are ever confronted by a person with a knife, by far the best advice is to run away as fast as you can. In the very unfortunate event you cannot run, here is some basic practical advice in regards to knife fighting:
- Cover your defensive hand with a glove, hat, jacket, scarf or other piece of protection.
- Use your feet actively to circle away from the assailant's knife hand.
- With your own weapon, strike at the assailant's hand, arm or face. Use a cutting or slicing action, not stabbing.

Your article is hidden behind a paywall so it's hard to tell but it looks as if they've confused inner-city London with knife crime in the whole of Britain.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Your article is hidden behind a paywall so it's hard to tell but it looks as if they've confused inner-city London for the whole of Britain.

Not sure how you get that from a few lines of text.

 

[UKMikey]

Not sure how you get that from a few lines of text.

That's why I said it's hard to tell. Living over here though I know that knife crime is not spread throughout the whole of Britain and the article led off with a London stabbing and talked about what the London mayor said.

 

[Johnnypenso]

That's why I said it's hard to tell. Living over here though I know that knife crime is not spread throughout the whole of Britain and the article led off with a London stabbing and talked about what the London mayor said.

I'm sure the majority happens in large cities as that's where the population is concentrated but it looks like knife crime is rising all across the country % wise.

 

[MatskiMonk]

- With your own weapon, strike at the assailant's hand, arm or face. Use a cutting or slicing action, not stabbing.

With your own weapon?

 

[Whitestar]

With your own weapon?

The dingdong between your legs maybe?

(I'll let myself out)

 

[Johnnypenso]

With your own weapon?

Of course. Anyone that cares about their safety, especially in the big cities, is going to be carrying something for self defense.

 

[Famine]

What are we defining as "knife crime" here? What do the percentage increases represent - incidents or incidence? What's the source data for this chart and why are there no labels (aside from three random counties, "London" and a key)?

 

[UKMikey]

Of course. Anyone that cares about their safety, especially in the big cities, is going to be carrying something for self defense.

We're talking about a circa 5,000 increase in a population of nearly 58 million people. Hardly reason to listen to non UK residents telling us to go out loaded for bear.

 

[Dotini]

Your article is hidden behind a paywall so it's hard to tell but it looks as if they've confused inner-city London with knife crime in the whole of Britain.

Here is the copy and paste. Too bad the charts, graphics and photos do not come across.

By
Will Horner
Nov. 9, 2018 5:30 a.m. ET

LONDON—Daniel Frederick, a 34-year-old father of three, was returning to his home on a London public-housing estate shortly after New Year’s when a group of teenagers stabbed him in the back seven times, yards from his flat near a children’s playground.

Mr. Frederick, a security guard, was targeted in a case of mistaken identity, police believe, but the assault was part of a crime trend that London’s mayor said this week would take a generation to solve: a surge in knife attacks in a country with relatively low levels of violent crime.


Mayor Sadiq Khan was speaking on Monday after a spate of four unrelated knife homicides in London in five days—the youngest victims were 15 and 17—put renewed focus on the national trend. A fifth knife killing followed that night.

Crime WaveKnife crime in Britain has surged, overtakingthe U.S...Crimes involving knives, per capitaSources: FBI, U.K. Office for National StatisticsNote: U.S. figures end in December. U.K. figures end inJune.
.per hundred thousandU.S.U.K.2011’12’13’14’15’16’17’180255075100125

...while the number of murders in London hasrisen, though below similarly sized New York...Yearly murders, 2010-17Sources: NYPD; Metropolitan PoliceNote: London figures end in March 2018.
New YorkLondon0100200300400500600
...and strict gun laws contribute to a low rateof British gun crime.Crimes involving firearms, per capitaSources: FBI, U.K. Office for National StatisticsNote: U.S. figures end in December. U.K. figures end inJune.
.per hundred thousandU.S.U.K.2011’12’13’14’15’16’17’180255075100125U.S.x2017x111 per hundred thousand

With strict British laws making guns hard to obtain, knives have become the weapon of choice for members of London gangs, who youth workers say fight over territory and are prepared to kill over trivial slights. As stabbings become more frequent, more young people feel compelled to carry knives for their own protection, fueling a cycle of violence.

Mr. Frederick’s sister, Louise Samuel, was at the hospital with her brother when he died in January. The five assailants, all 16 to 18 years old, were sentenced last month to a total of 64 years in prison.

Ms. Samuel, a former youth worker, said she can understand the peer pressure that drove them. She has already forgiven the boys, she said, and would like to meet them, “Just to know why they are so angry.”

Mr. Khan has set up a special unit of police, youth workers and doctors to target the causes of violence, which he said were “extremely complex, involving deep-seated societal problems like poverty, social alienation, mental ill-health and a lack of opportunity.”

The British government last month established a £200 million ($261 million) fund intended to put children who are 10 to 14 years old and at risk of violence on the right track before they become perpetrators.

There is little consensus on why knife violence began increasing in 2014, after declining for years, and continues to grow. Some opposition lawmakers have blamed government cuts to police numbers, while those in power argue that changes in drug trafficking, such as the greater involvement of teenagers in the sale of drugs, is the key factor.

Ms. Samuel said she wants to meet her brother’s killers ‘to know why they are so angry.’ PHOTO: MARY TURNER FOR THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
Youth workers say the closure of youth centers because of government budget cuts have left children to make their own rules on the streets. Numerous British charities are working to educate children about the dangers of carrying knives.

Despite prison sentences getting longer, the number of knife crimes in England and Wales jumped by 63% in the past four years, according to police statistics. Cities are the most affected areas with London hardest hit.

Murders in the capital rose to 153 between April 2017 and March 2018, compared with roughly 100 for each of the previous six years, according to London’s Metropolitan Police, which doesn’t specify killing methods. Across the country, knives are by far the most common instrument used in murders, official statistics show.

Yvonne Lawson in the Tottenham office of the Godwin Lawson Foundation, which she established to raise awareness of the dangers of carrying knives. Her son Godwin was killed in 2010. PHOTO: MARY TURNER FOR THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
The knives themselves have gotten bigger, said Detective Inspector Paul Considine, who led the investigation into Daniel Frederick’s murder.

“The weapons we are coming across at the moment are zombie knives, specifically designed to cause major injury to human beings,” he said, describing a type of knife, banned in Britain, the size of a machete with serrated edges and jagged protrusions.

Knife crimes increase just after schools close, said Duncan Bew, a trauma surgeon who founded a charity that educates children about the dangers of gangs and carrying knives. “They feel that their environment is so violent that they aren’t protected unless they carry a weapon,” he said.

Some of Mrs. Lawson’s photographs of Godwin. She visits London schools to share the story of his death with students in an effort to educate them on the dangers of knives. PHOTO: MARY TURNER FOR THE WALL STREET JOURNAL

Dr. Bew said the injuries he has seen have grown worse in the past two years, with victims receiving multiple stab wounds in hard-to-treat areas, suggesting, he said, an intent to kill.

Yvonne Lawson tours London schools to tell the story of losing her son eight years ago to convince children not to carry knives. “It doesn’t get any easier,” she said in the two-desk office of the Godwin Lawson Foundation, in Tottenham, North London. “Sometimes I share that story, sometimes I break down and sob, sometimes I never get to the end.”

Godwin Lawson, a 17-year-old promising soccer player and former altar boy, was killed by a single stab wound to the heart in 2010 when he tried to break up a fight involving a friend.

“As a Christian, we brought him up to be caring and to look after others,” Mrs. Lawson said.

The young man that killed her son, now in prison, has requested to meet her, as has his family. She will, she said, as she leafed through photos of Godwin spread across her desk, but not yet.

“Forgiveness is part of healing and when I am ready I would like to…but it has got to be when I am ready.”

Letters from schoolchildren who have been visited by Yvonne Lawson. PHOTO: MARY TURNER FOR THE WALL STREET JOURNAL

With your own weapon?

I do not advise anybody to carry a weapon. I advise you to run at the least sign of danger or threat. However, in you must dwell for any significant amount of time in a dangerous area and feel you must be able to defend yourself in a last resort, you may wish to consider arming yourself. I am not advising you do this. But if you do, I would advise you that there are much better weapons than a knife, and if you carry any weapon at all, I would advise you seek training in its use. The worst solution is to carry a weapon, not know how to use it, then attempt to use it when you could have run or fallen on your knees begging for mercy.

 

[MatskiMonk]

I do not advise anybody to carry a weapon. I advise you to run at the least sign of danger or threat. However, in you must dwell for any significant amount of time in a dangerous area and feel you must be able to defend yourself in a last resort, you may wish to consider arming yourself. I am not advising you do this. But if you do, I would advise you that there are much better weapons than a knife, and if you carry any weapon at all, I would advise you seek training in its use. The worst solution is to carry a weapon, not know how to use it, then attempt to use it when you could have run or fallen on your knees begging for mercy.

Yeah, I understand I put a question mark at the end of my sentence, but the nature of my statement was more ... Are you aware what the legal options are in the UK for offensive "defensive" weapons?

 

[Dotini]

Yeah, I understand I put a question mark at the end of my sentence, but the nature of my statement was more ... Are you aware what the legal options are in the UK for offensive "defensive" weapons?

The laws and regulations regarding the carrying of knives and other weapons vary across state, county and city limits all across America. I assume the same thing may be true for the places you live, work and travel. I make it my business to know what the legal requirements are in my particular area.

Please allow me to add that I am a peaceful and cautious man. I have not been involved in any sort of violent confrontation since I was in a fistfight as a teenager, although I am disregarding the handful of years I spent in service in my 20's. That said, once I retired from racing, I have involved myself in martial arts for the last 6 years, including training in the knife and dagger. It is not for the purpose of self-defense, but for health, fun and socialization. Practicing martial arts is somewhat akin to racing, but it is safer, easier to do on a weekly basis, and far less expensive.

 

[MatskiMonk]

The laws and regulations regarding the carrying of knives and other weapons vary across state, county and city limits all across America. I assume the same thing may be true for the places you live, work and travel. I make it my business to know what the legal requirements are in my particular area.

Please allow me to add that I am a peaceful and cautious man. I have not been involved in any sort of violent confrontation since I was in a fistfight as a teenager, although I am disregarding the handful of years I spent in service in my 20's. That said, once I retired from racing, I have involved myself in martial arts for the last 6 years, including training in the knife and dagger. It is not for the purpose of self-defense, but for health, fun and socialization. Practicing martial arts is somewhat akin to racing, but it is safer, easier to do on a weekly basis, and far less expensive.

I've been "mugged" once, I did my best to cave the little ****ers head in with the bluntest thing I had on me at the time (a bottle of the Grand Old drink of the South) and he left the scene in a far worse state than me... the police were kind enough to word my statement that if he turned up in hospital it was clear my actions were those of self-defence... but in practice, you're not allowed to carry offensive weapons, which means your best bet is to carry a 3" foldable knife and hope its a suitable deterrent...

... thing is... this is the UK, we do not have the American mentality of "the best Defence, is a good Offence"... and the bottom line for the majority (in my experience), is that you accept the risk of not having a defense on the basis of the low probability of attack.

And I'm fine with this, personally. I enjoy RDR2, but I don't want the UK to become a wild west frontier of self-defence... it'll escalate things far faster than anyone wants.

Just my two cents.

 

[Dotini]

...carry a 3" foldable knife and hope its a suitable deterrent...

In most jurisdictions here, we are allowed 3.5", fixed or folding, concealed or open. Pretty thin gruel for defense, but handy for cutting twigs and shoelaces. Like you, I'm lucky to live in an area where the risk of needing defense is very low.

 

[Johnnypenso]

What are we defining as "knife crime" here? What do the percentage increases represent - incidents or incidence? What's the source data for this chart and why are there no labels (aside from three random counties, "London" and a key)?

I'll have to find it again. I thought I linked it but I guess I forgot. It was UK publication..Telegraph or Sun maybe...

We're talking about a circa 5,000 increase in a population of nearly 58 million people. Hardly reason to listen to non UK residents telling us to go out loaded for bear.

You've had a 15,000 incident or 60% increase in knife crime in the last 4 years. If that isn't concerning I'm not sure what would be.

 

[UKMikey]

You've had a 15,000 incident or 60% increase in knife crime in the last 4 years. If that isn't concerning I'm not sure what would be.

I'm sure most people in Britain find it concerning given the front page headlines, but see it as an inner city gang problem amongst a certain age group, not a reason to arm oneself as unhelpfully suggested above. That'd be like pouring petrol on a fire.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I'm sure most people in Britain find it concerning given the fornt page headlines, but see it as an inner city gang problem amongst a certain age group, not a reason to arm oneself as unhelpfully suggested above. That'd be like pouring petrol on a fire.

Explain how me, for example, a law abiding citizen who has never been arrested or even accused of a crime, arming myself in self-defence, is like pouring petrol on a fire. How is arming myself against criminals and thugs, a worse alternative than being completely defenceless if I can't outrun what is quite often a younger and fitter opponent?

 

[UKMikey]

Explain how me, for example, a law abiding citizen who has never been arrested or even accused of a crime, arming myself in self-defence, is like pouring petrol on a fire.

That's a false equivalence. This is not Canada or the USA. Carrying offensive weapons is prohibited in the UK, and I wouldn't be a law abiding citizen by carrying a knife for self defence or otherwise.

I'm in agreement with @MatskiMonk's post above. As far as I know nobody over here is clamouring for assault knives to be licensed for widespread use, especially in the current climate, unless you know differently. I believe we would like to see fewer weapons on the streets, rather than more, and that a better funded police force would be a more widely accepted solution.

... thing is... this is the UK, we do not have the American mentality of "the best Defence, is a good Offence"... and the bottom line for the majority (in my experience), is that you accept the risk of not having a defense on the basis of the low probability of attack.

And I'm fine with this, personally. I enjoy RDR2, but I don't want the UK to become a wild west frontier of self-defence... it'll escalate things far faster than anyone wants.

Me, neither.

 

[Johnnypenso]

That's a false equivalence. This is not Canada or the USA. Carrying offensive weapons is prohibited in the UK, and I wouldn't be a law abiding citizen by carrying a knife for self defence or otherwise.

I'm in agreement with @MatskiMonk's post above. As far as I know nobody over here is clamouring for assault knives to be licensed for widespread use, especially in the current climate, unless you know differently. I believe we would like to see fewer weapons on the streets, rather than more, and that a better funded police force would be a more widely accepted solution.



Me, neither.

View attachment 779410

What false equivalence? I didn't say anything about Canada or U.S.A. I asked how a law abiding citizen who has never been arrested or even accused of a crime, arming myself in self-defence, is like pouring petrol on a fire? I'm not equating anything to anything.

 

[UKMikey]

What false equivalence? I didn't say anything about Canada or U.S.A. I asked how a law abiding citizen who has never been arrested or even accused of a crime, arming myself in self-defence, is like pouring petrol on a fire? I'm not equating anything to anything.

Well, all I can do is refer you to my and @MatskiMonk's previous posts. If you don't want to read them there's not much I can do.

You can't carry a knife in Britain and be a law abiding citizen. Our knife murder rates are lower than another country's with a widely armed population. Breaking the law and carrying weapons is ultimately not the answer.

When non US citizens weigh in on the American guns debate they're widely rebuffed as not knowing anything about the local situation. I don't see why I can't ask that we be granted the same courtesy.