Britain - The Official Thread

[baldgye]

It doesn't have to be feasible, it just has to happen. Seems like a very long leap to me to get from neither of the two main parties opposing brexit, to someone tabling revoke A50, and MP's voting in favour of it, to it actually getting called off. It is currently law and no-one will have the power to change that.



I don't see that the events would unfold like that. Since none of the parties that want it can overtake an incumbent pro-FPTP via a GE, it would require all the pro-PR MP's from the smaller parties to vote for it during normal business, and they'd probably all stand to gain from it at that point. For that to happen we need as few CON/LAB MP's in the house as possible. An election would then be held under the new system and at that point, it's not in the 'winners' interest to be pro-FPTP, because they've just won based on PR.



Oh good... well at least that means you can vote for pretty much anyone then, since they're all promising to do it.



Not while there's a majority rule from parties benefiting from FPTP, yay, a system we cannot change!



You will not get functional politics while peoples voices are systematically ignored.

Sorry I can’t pick quotes because mobile Safari is total garbage.

If something that isn’t feasible can happen, Brexit would have happened already. The ERG have been essentially in power since Bojo took control, yet what have we had? We’ve had the ******** about Brexit happening... it not happening and then being sold the same **** deal May had, followed by another postponement!

Brexit will bankrupt this country and best case, will force us into bed with America, which will worsen our food and take away our NHS. Our economy needs the EU.

So it comes back down to the question of who to vote for? And as you’ve said, basically everyone, bar everyone.

I don’t have the answers, I don’t know how I’m going to vote... the idea of a general election is exasperating. Listening to current political debate is enraging. Our country has become the battle ground for ignorance and foreign powers to interfere with. Everyone is a victim and everyone is a target.
Our own government spoofed a fact checking organisation to deride the opposition leader during a TV debate... and then mocked up a fake manifesto website and pushed it to the top of google searches, just because labour launched their actual manifesto! The government!

 

[Tired Tyres]

It is fundamentally straight forward. If you want to stay in the EU vote Liberal Democrat. If all 48% did that then they form the Government.

Do anything else at all, including not voting, and you gift the Conservatives the right to leave the EU. That will not be their fault, they would be doing what they've said they'd do all along.

It be the be the fault of anyone who wants to stay in the UK but doesn't vote Liberal Democrat.

 

[baldgye]

It is fundamentally straight forward. If you want to stay in the EU vote Liberal Democrat. If all 48% did that then they form the Government.

Do anything else at all, including not voting, and you gift the Conservatives the right to leave the EU. That will not be their fault, they would be doing what they've said they'd do all along.

It be the be the fault of anyone who wants to stay in the UK but doesn't vote Liberal Democrat.

https://metro.co.uk/2019/10/28/all-...in-would-leave-the-eu-on-october-31-10998235/

I was with you not so long ago, but I just don't think it's that easy or straightforward

 

[Daz555]

It be the be the fault of anyone who wants to stay in the UK but doesn't vote Liberal Democrat.

You can't ignore the need for tactical voting. Voting Lib Dem in some seats could gift the seat to the Tories.

 

[TenEightyOne]

If you have a referendum, that’ll lead to a serious change in policy (especially internationally), it’s prudent to have a threshold. Cameron didn’t because he was gambling this countries future on his ability to out manoeuvre a highly organised well funded and illegally operated opposition.

But there was a referendum on voting reform back in 2011, that's what I'm talking about.

 

[Daz555]

Anyway given the Tory lead (19 points and rising) a Tory majority is looking more and more likely.

I was in the fight to remain and the fight against Tory rule. Sadly I think the fight is lost.

On to 2024.

 

[MatskiMonk]

It is fundamentally straight forward. If you want to stay in the EU vote Liberal Democrat. If all 48% did that then they form the Government.

I'm not saying this is incorrect, but for every constituency where the leave vote is not stronger than the vote for the conservatives, this would not be true. In my constituency NEITHER leave nor remain got more votes than our Tory MP. So instantly, my vote towards that Lib Dem government would not get counted, even though it was counted as part of the 48%.

That will not be their fault, they would be doing what they've said they'd do all along.

It be the be the fault of anyone who wants to stay in the UK but doesn't vote Liberal Democrat.

Brexit is the fault of anyone who voted Conservative in 2015, it's the fault of those that voted Leave in 2016, it's the fault of anyone who voted for an MP of any party that has voted in support of it since. It's as simple as that. None of these things apply to me, for instance (I've never been represented by an MP I've voted for, I've never voted Tory and I definitely voted Remain), so frankly it's bollocks to try and hang 'the blame' on someone like me, who even if I do vote Lib Dem would still require a 700-odd % swing in my constituency for the government and parliament to even recognise my vote.

 

[baldgye]

But there was a referendum on voting reform back in 2011, that's what I'm talking about.

Ah ok, sorry assumed you where talking about Brexit. Given how that result went and that it was far more decivice than the last referendum, is there even a demand for another?

I'm with you guys in electoral reform, but the basis of our political structure is fundamentally broken... anything built on it at the moment will have no value or strength

 

[MatskiMonk]

I'm with you guys in electoral reform, but the basis of our political structure is fundamentally broken...

That's why we need reform now.

 

[TenEightyOne]

It is fundamentally straight forward. If you want to stay in the EU vote Liberal Democrat. If all 48% did that then they form the Government.

Nope. You can have a party that gets 4,000,000 votes but only one parliamentary seat while another party gets a seat from just 1,000,000 votes. It really doesn't balance the way you think it does.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Nope. You can have a party that gets 4,000,000 votes but only one parliamentary seat while another party gets a seat from just 1,000,000 votes. It really doesn't balance the way you think it does.

If everyone who voted to remain voted Liberal Democrat and everyone else was split between Labour/Conservative, as usual, it would lead to a Liberal Democrat government.

 

[baldgye]

That's why we need reform now.

And who would lead that Bojo? Corbs? Neither are widley trusted and both have to deal with Brexit before anything else...

 

[MaxAttack]

Brexit is going to happen, we're eating dog**** pie either way - the bad guys, the racists and the liars won.

I wish things were as black and white, good and evil as you make them out to be here.

I wonder if I'm a racist, liar or just a bad guy?

You have your opinion and it's informed, I'm sure, but saying everyone who didn't vote the same as you is racist, lying or evil is juvenile in the highest degree.

Maybe our politics wouldn't be such a ****ing mess if we didn't just instantly dehumanise people the moment they disagree with us.

 

[baldgye]

That's why we need reform now.

The more I think about this, the more poorly thought out I think it is.
Electoral reform, in a world of social media and rising violent right-wing extremism... and on the cusp of financal ruin for the country (via Brexit) is the correct enviroment to go through electoral reform, something the general public has little interest in-if you look at polling the nations key issues (I belive at the moment it's in this order; the NHS, the enviroment and Brexit) and the results and fallout of the last referendum on the matter?

 

[MatskiMonk]

Maybe our politics wouldn't be such a ****ing mess if we didn't just instantly dehumanise people the moment they disagree with us.

Take it this way if you like, but you're assuming at who I'm pointing the finger, and it should be abundantly clear that by now I do not consider the British electorate to be winners in any of this irrespective of their stance on the EU.

The more I think about this, the more poorly thought out I think it is. Electoral reform, in a world of social media and rising violent right-wing extremism... and on the cusp of financal ruin for the country (via Brexit) is the correct enviroment to go through electoral reform, something the general public has little interest in-if you look at polling the nations key issues (I belive at the moment it's in this order; the NHS, the enviroment and Brexit) and the results and fallout of the last referendum on the matter?

Well, at least being against electoral reform narrows down your choices again. Personally I'm not comfortable with yet another election knowing that last time the Tories gained 42 more seats than their share of the votes would dictate, and the Lib Dems got 35 less... or that the SNP got 15 more, and the Greens 10 less, or that the DUP and Sinn Fein got 6 more, whilst over a million peoples vote has no representation in the house at all. It makes a mockery of it even if everyone turning up at the ballot box was well informed. But I guess we can wait until the end of social media, violent right-wing extremism and serious economic worry to do anything about it.

 

[baldgye]

My eyes are rolling so fast it’s making me dizzy

 

[Tired Tyres]

My eyes are rolling so fast it’s making me dizzy

Let me know if your head starts going round. On second thoughts don't.

We need proportional representation but how to make sure no berlusconi situations can arise. So two votes then. One for the party and one for a person who needs public support to take up a seat.

 

[baldgye]

Let me know if your head starts going round. On second thoughts don't.

We need proportional representation but how to make sure no berlusconi situations can arise. So two votes then. One for the party and one for a person who needs public support to take up a seat.

Good luck with getting the that agreed by the public... and then getting a proper turnout.

I’m not against PR I think it’s a better and fairer system, but we’ve got bigger more pressing needs.


PR wouldn’t count for **** if we’ve not got an economy

 

[TenEightyOne]

We need proportional representation but how to make sure no berlusconi situations can arise

And as I said, we've had a referendum on the matter and it was rejected by the people. However much you want it you lost the vote. Sound familiar?

 

[baldgye]

And as I said, we've had a referendum on the matter and it was rejected by the people. However much you want it you lost the vote. Sound familiar?

 

[Tired Tyres]

And as I said, we've had a referendum on the matter and it was rejected by the people. However much you want it you lost the vote. Sound familiar?

Yes it does. I'm just suggesting a way back.

 

[Liquid]

Took me almost two weeks to register a postal vote with the benevolent overlords of record keeping at Flintshire County Council but to their credit, they had my postal ballot paper delivered the very morning after the deadline closed.

Tory candidate lives in London, well outside the Alyn & Deeside constituency. BP candidate also doesn't live in the area but at least they do live in Wales (Ynys Mon is Anglesey).

 

[Tired Tyres]

Cut of point to register to vote is midnight tonight. Almost three million people have registered for the first time since last week or the week before when it was said that nine million people eligible to vote hadn't registered.

 

[TenEightyOne]

The Yorkshire Air Ambulance has dropped Prince Andrew. Only figuratively, unfortunately.

 

[baldgye]

https://www.businessinsider.com/boris-johnson-election-campaign-funded-wife-putin-ally-lubov-2019-11

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...port-intelligence-agency-grieve-a9187616.html

What a strange coincidence this all is

 

[Touring Mars]

Jeremy Corbyn has perhaps landed his first serious blow to the Conservatives today as he reveals hundreds of pages of unredacted documents detailing UK-US talks regarding a possible future trade deal and, more pertinently, the status of the NHS.

These documents don't prove that the UK government are actually planning to yield to any US demands, but they do make it pretty obvious that it is going to be very difficult (/impossible) to strike a trade deal with the US that doesn't involve the NHS in some way. The BBC are also reporting that the documents go much further than the NHS, including US demands on changing UK employment law, and noting a US preference for a no deal Brexit (which Trump has already make quite clear).

This could be very damaging for Johnson though no doubt the Conservative Party spin doctors will already have prepared a response and try to dismiss the documents as 'old' and otherwise insignificant. The harder problem for Johnson could well be the fact that these negotiations have taken place at all and that it seems to be pretty clear that a much-vaunted trade deal with the US will almost certainly come at a very high cost to the UK.

Perhaps more damningly, the very rationale behind any trade deal talks with the US is to mitigate the economic impact of leaving the EU, which automatically puts the UK in a weak position relative to the US, who arguably do not need a trade deal with the UK save for perhaps strategic reasons. That being the case, it is very hard to see what leverage UK negotiators have with the US... and Trump has made it abundantly clear that any deal that does not benefit the US and give them exactly what they want will not happen. It's obvious that the UK cannot do a trade deal with the US that does not involve the NHS in some way.

 

[Liquid]

In my most cynical view, a much-vaunted trade deal with the USA is tantamount to the UK becoming the 51st state.

 

[baldgye]

Jeremy Corbyn has perhaps landed his first serious blow to the Conservatives today as he reveals hundreds of pages of unredacted documents detailing UK-US talks regarding a possible future trade deal and, more pertinently, the status of the NHS.

These documents don't prove that the UK government are actually planning to yield to any US demands, but they do make it pretty obvious that it is going to be very difficult (/impossible) to strike a trade deal with the US that doesn't involve the NHS in some way. The BBC are also reporting that the documents go much further than the NHS, including US demands on changing UK employment law, and noting a US preference for a no deal Brexit (which Trump has already make quite clear).

This could be very damaging for Johnson though no doubt the Conservative Party spin doctors will already have prepared a response and try to dismiss the documents as 'old' and otherwise insignificant. The harder problem for Johnson could well be the fact that these negotiations have taken place at all and that it seems to be pretty clear that a much-vaunted trade deal with the US will almost certainly come at a very high cost to the UK.

Perhaps more damningly, the very rationale behind any trade deal talks with the US is to mitigate the economic impact of leaving the EU, which automatically puts the UK in a weak position relative to the US, who arguably do not need a trade deal with the UK save for perhaps strategic reasons. That being the case, it is very hard to see what leverage UK negotiators have with the US... and Trump has made it abundantly clear that any deal that does not benefit the US and give them exactly what they want will not happen. It's obvious that the UK cannot do a trade deal with the US that does not involve the NHS in some way.

I'm so shocked. Wow. Who would have thought that leaving our biggest trading partner would put us in a weaker negotiating position and that good will to all men isn't a legitimate negotiation tactic?
Flabbergasted.

 

[baldgye]

Boris Johnson said that Islamophobia is a 'natural reaction' to Islam and that 'Islam is the problem'
via

I guess this is why Christophobia is so rampant in the UK and why Boris has been urging the Queen to address it.

 

[TheCracker]

Isn't it weird how Islamophobia (UK Muslim population of approx 3.4m) within the Conservatives gets brushed under the carpet whist anti-semitism (UK Jewish population of approx 300k) within the Labour party is being made out to be such a big issue?