Britain - The Official Thread

[baldgye]

Isn't it weird how Islamophobia (UK Muslim population of approx 3.4m) within the Conservatives gets brushed under the carpet whist anti-semitism (UK Jewish population of approx 300k) within the Labour party is being made out to be such a big issue?

Very weird

 

[Touring Mars]

Isn't it weird how Islamophobia (UK Muslim population of approx 3.4m) within the Conservatives gets brushed under the carpet whist anti-semitism (UK Jewish population of approx 300k) within the Labour party is being made out to be such a big issue?

I reckon there's a few things at play here, not least electioneering, but one large factor is credibility.

Ironically, I reckon Jeremy Corbyn's track record of integrity, honesty and credibility is far stronger than Boris Johnson's, but this is now coming back to bite him.

Corbyn's problem is that his fundamental values and political views are preventing him from doing what others (e.g. the Tories) might do, and just say whatever the press or public want to hear... he can't and won't do it. He also won't apologise for something that he doesn't believe he should apologise for. Couple this with the fact that the left-wing of Labour are openly and increasingly hostile to Israel (and sympathetic to the Palestinian cause), and Corbyn has a problem with no easy answers.

I reckon this is the crux of the problem - Corbyn will not compromise on his principles and denounce the anti-Israeli Labour left, and this is being perceived as leaving room in the party for anti-semitic views to not only exist but to deepen and spread.

Corbyn's own personal views are being ignored because he is also responsible for what everyone else in the party says or does, and unfortunately that includes a large anti-Israeli element. And while some Tory MPs may well be prejudiced in some (or indeed many) ways, there's no one unifying cause (like the Labour left's views on Israel) to focus criticism upon them. The irony is quite immense - that Corbyn is too honest to be able to deny that Labour has a problem with Israel, and this issue is dominating Labour's entire campaign, while Johnson has a huge credibility problem and leads a party that has multiple flaws, but no one flaw is big enough to ruin their campaign.

 

[TheCracker]

Corbyn's own personal views are being ignored because he is also responsible for what everyone else in the party says or does, and unfortunately that includes a large anti-Israeli element. And while some Tory MPs may well be prejudiced in some (or indeed many) ways, there's no one unifying cause (like the Labour left's views on Israel) to focus criticism upon them. The irony is quite immense - that Corbyn is too honest to be able to deny that Labour has a problem with Israel, and this issue is dominating Labour's entire campaign, while Johnson has a huge credibility problem and leads a party that has multiple flaws, but no one flaw is big enough to ruin their campaign.

I get increasingly annoyed that 'anti-Israel' (anti-zionism) views, or more accurately, Israel's foreign policy towards it's neighbours, is being painted as anti-semitic, which it isn't. You can denounce a countries political actions without it being an attack on that countries dominant religion. Or rather you should be able to.

But that's a different matter for a different thread.

 

[Dotini]

I get increasingly annoyed that 'anti-Israel' (anti-zionism) views, or more accurately, Israel's foreign policy towards it's neighbours, is being painted as anti-semitic, which it isn't. You can denounce a countries political actions without it being an attack on that countries dominant religion or people. Or rather you should be able to.

There are two basic reasons for having a conversation with someone. One is to speak and persuade, which probably isn't going to happen, The other is to listen and understand, which probably isn't going to happen either. Tant pis.

But your point is well-taken. In my own case, I have many Jewish friends for reasons I can't help - I just like them. But I am dubious of some of Israel's policies. My best plan is to listen and try to understand the other's point of view, i.e., to empathize. I have emended your post.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I get increasingly annoyed that 'anti-Israel' (anti-zionism) views, or more accurately, Israel's foreign policy towards it's neighbours, is being painted as anti-semitic, which it isn't.

Agreed, but in the case of the Labour party things aren't quite as simple as that. Corbyn doesn't support Israel but it's a little more difficult to say he's anti-Zionist, that isn't the same thing. Then there's the issue with the anti-Jewish messages that have come from members of the party - and anti-Jewish isn't the same as anti-Israel either. Posts that attack people who are ethnically Jewish are at the core of the problem, not an argument about Israel's geo-political goals.

For many people (and the press) these things are all the same and that's why it's an issue that could well sink Corbyn. I don't think he's a good party leader but I think the current turn of events is unfair given that he's always been clear about his stance on this issue (imo) and that, as @Touring Mars says, he's a man of principle.

 

[Tired Tyres]

I get increasingly annoyed that 'anti-Israel' (anti-zionism) views, or more accurately, Israel's foreign policy towards it's neighbours, is being painted as anti-semitic, which it isn't. You can denounce a countries political actions without it being an attack on that countries dominant religion. Or rather you should be able to.

But that's a different matter for a different thread.

You get people who are so against the country that it starts to become about the people as well.

 

[HenrySwanson]

Two people (plus the terrorist) have been confirmed to have died in today's terror attack.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50604781

 

[ryzno]

https://nypost.com/2019/11/30/londo...medium=site+buttons&utm_campaign=site+buttons
Hope our GTP London brethren are ok.

 

[TenEightyOne]

https://nypost.com/2019/11/30/londo...medium=site+buttons&utm_campaign=site+buttons
Hope our GTP London brethren are ok.

The event's being given a bit more news time than it's worthy of, imo, I'd like to see the same time and resources put into the causes of all the other knife deaths in the capital this year, or to all the terrorist threats/incidents that haven't happened near Westminster.

That's not to diminish the horror of two murders of innocent people - I'd just like to see a little less sensationalism and a little more sensible contextualisation.

 

[Dotini]

Lacking any national consensus or purpose, the UK has become an inviting open global playground.

Britain's Dec. 12 election is a bitter fight to shape the country's future, with voters not only hoping to chart the next steps of Brexit, but also picking between startlingly different visions of the country from right-wing Prime Minister Boris Johnson and left-wing Labour Party leader Jeremy Corbyn.

However, it isn't just British voters who are influencing Britain's future. A number of wealthy American individuals and organizations appear also to be having a big influence on this fraught British election.

---

The prominent left-leaning newspaper the Guardian reported Friday that 11 wealthy American donors have given a total of more than $3.7 million to influential right-wing British groups over the past five years.

Through his Open Society Foundation, Soros - another U.S. citizen - is reported to have donated about $800,000 to anti-Brexit groups, though some Conservatives in Britain have alleged the real figure is considerably higher.

---

The news comes as Washington focuses on allegations of foreign influence on U.S. elections and is a reminder that outside the United States, the problem is often seen through the opposite lens: wealthy Americans seeking to influence foreign elections.

https://www.greenwichtime.com/news/article/In-a-bitter-British-election-influence-of-14872390.php

 

[Liquid]

BBC diplomatic correspondent James Lansdale said the Conservatives' HQ is not keen on a meeting [between Trump and Johnson] "to avoid pictures that could be used by his opponents" in the upcoming general election.

Even the Tory Party know that Trump is poisonous PR.

 

[Touring Mars]

Did anyone watch Panorama's documentary about Prince Andrew's connections to Jeffrey Epstein last night?

To say it looks bad for Prince Andrew would be a masterpiece of understatement - it looks very, very bad.

I don't doubt for a minute that he is lying through his teeth - but unfortunately I also don't doubt that he will get away with it too.

 

[Dotini]

Did anyone watch Panorama's documentary about Prince Andrew's connections to Jeffrey Epstein last night?

To say it looks bad for Prince Andrew would be a masterpiece of understatement - it looks very, very bad.

I don't doubt for a minute that he is lying through his teeth - but unfortunately I also don't doubt that he will get away with it too.

Hasn't he been banned from public life? Will he commit suicide? Go into exile?

 

[TenEightyOne]

Hasn't he been banned from public life?

He is taking time away from his public office, his royal grant has been removed (he's a wealthy man nonetheless) but if there was a "ban" enforced by Big Liz then we'll never hear about it.

Will he commit suicide? Go into exile?

He's too arrogant for the first and claims an ancient birthright that is honoured by the British people (however ridiculously) and will just carry on with his private life as he chooses. Whatever his birthline he's definitely just one in a very long family line of hard-partying shaggers - his undoing is being alive in an age of instant communication with its inability to have the press ditch a story through a single phone call from the Palace.

 

[Tired Tyres]

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ohnson-brexit-britain-politics-media-business

This is depressing.

 

[baldgye]

I remember when I said about Brexit that the newspapers had systematically poisoned people on Europe and that they're influence over peoples perceptions was a problem and was told that no-one payed attention to the news.

Yet here we are, where the news papers are part of the war on facts and reality. Where an increase on the top 5% of earners is attacked as a robbery of the masses...

Spoiler

When you have major publications paying the PM hundreds of thousands of pounds to write racist columns what possible chance does logic, fact and reason have?


Disclaimer: I have no affiliation or affection for the Labour Party or Corbs, just an easy example.

 

[Famine]

I've updated the poll, 'cos there's only a week left of comical disarray.

 

[MatskiMonk]

I've updated the poll, 'cos there's only a week left of comical disarray.

It's probably too late now, but I'd have been curious to see will not, and cannot separated out.

 

[Tired Tyres]

I remember when I said about Brexit that the newspapers had systematically poisoned people on Europe and that they're influence over peoples perceptions was a problem and was told that no-one payed attention to the news.

Yet here we are, where the news papers are part of the war on facts and reality. Where an increase on the top 5% of earners is attacked as a robbery of the masses...

Spoiler

When you have major publications paying the PM hundreds of thousands of pounds to write racist columns what possible chance does logic, fact and reason have?


Disclaimer: I have no affiliation or affection for the Labour Party or Corbs, just an easy example.

Because you are pretending that anyone bothers with newspapers anymore outside of older people that grew up with them pre internet. These people aren't going to be swayed either. They've voted Labour/Conservative or nobody ever since they could vote and they will not change who they vote for regardless of who writes what in what.

Your concern should be what happens online. You will know some of the truly disgusting things the Conservative party have done on Twitter with renaming feeds and editing interviews to leave false impressions.

 

[baldgye]

Because you are pretending that anyone bothers with newspapers anymore

I remember when I said about Brexit that the newspapers had systematically poisoned people on Europe and that they're influence over peoples perceptions was a problem and was told that no-one payed attention to the news.

Yet here we are, where the news papers are part of the war on facts and reality. Where an increase on the top 5% of earners is attacked as a robbery of the masses...

Your concern should be what happens online.

Good thing these newspapers have zero presence online...

 

[Liquid]

It almost feels redundant to say it but Boris Johnson really is an absolute 🤬.

 

[PzR Slim]

It almost feels redundant to say it but Boris Johnson really is an absolute 🤬.

How anyone can think, 'He's the guy for me!' after the way he has behaved is beyond me.

 

[HenrySwanson]

It almost feels redundant to say it but Boris Johnson really is an absolute 🤬.

I think this is in response to this story: https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ture-of-boy-forced-to-sleep-on-hospital-floor

Boris Johnson has been accused of not caring after he repeatedly refused during a TV interview to look at a photo of a four-year-old boy forced to sleep on the floor at an overcrowded A&E unit, before pocketing the reporter’s phone on which he was being shown the picture.

I'm pulling this quote from the comment section in The Times that was written by a doctor about another story that dealt with A+E waiting times and why they had increased that I believe to be a good representation of the source of the problems faced in hospitals around the country. I think it can be used to show why the aforementioned picture situation arose:

I’m an A&E registrar, here is what is wrong with emergency departments at the moment:

• Too few alternatives. People can’t (or have the perception of being unable to) get a GP appointment in a timely manner to get a referral to a service, so they present to their local ED to get the referral. This splits them into 2 camps, one camp of patient genuinely does need an emergency referral to a specialty, which could have been prevented had they been seen by their GP earlier or had the referral pathway been an option. The other camp don’t need an emergency referral, which results in a difficult period of waiting for the patient where there is nothing I can do, but they continue to have their issue. How can this be fixed? More availability of GP appointments (both urgent and booked) in the community.

• I have no space to admit my patient - this is exit block, has been going on for years since we tried to reduce our hospital bed numbers much further than almost all other developed nations. How can this be fixed? Build more hospitals and have allow cottage hospitals and rehabilitation beds to take over the care of the relatively well but infirm elderly patients.

• I have too few staff. I can only see so many patients, my nurses can only do so many things at once. We need more doctors and we need more nurses. This can’t be a quick fix, and does require more training, more incentive to train, and more immigration into the country.

• the emergency department is the front door to the hospital. Causes a blockade of patients. This needs sorting at a local level but does need money and investment to set up new admissions pathways.

• less PFI restriction - I work at a large PFI hospital, the costs involved in the simplest of tasks are astronomical. We really need to cut and run from PFI deals and stop forcing competition. One example is every few years hospitals are forced to completely ditch all monitoring equipment and rerun the tender to supply.

• Too much demand. Yes, this is an issue. As a population we expect modern medicine to immediately fix any problem and have no patience for things to get better. This is difficult to fix, access to allied health professionals (Pharmacists, physios) will help a little and there has been some push towards this.

• mental health, this is a crisis, I can do little in the acute phase and it accounts for a large number of patients in my department (whether directly or indirectly). Most of which need counselling and CBT rather than medication, but there is so little access to this.

• Elderly patients are sicker and sicker - this is a by-product if simply living longer. More things to concurrently go wrong causes more complex emergency presentations leading to longer hospital stays. We need More beds, more GPs, more cottage hospitals.

Overall, we need more GP appointments, more psychiatry and mental health investments, more hospitals and rehab beds, more emergency department staff and less money going towards private finance initiatives. This is clearly not a quick fix. (I will await the response where people claim I missed immigration - I didn’t - it’s so far down the problem list that it is a distraction from the real issues facing emergency care, and I suspect this is deliberate).

IMO 5/8 of those can be ameliorated by a caring, competent government and I sincerely believe another however many years of Boris is going to be up to that task.

 

[baldgye]

How anyone can think, 'He's the guy for me!' after the way he has behaved is beyond me.

Not only him, but his entire party. They’ve been actively peddling fake news and openly lying to people and the press... it’s outstanding how anyone could sit down and think, yeah that’s the party for me!

 

[Famine]

This is like a physical cartoon by Brant, on The Day Today:



What reality are we actually in right now?

 

[TheCracker]

"Here's Boris!"

 

[Touring Mars]

USA: Our current leader is the ultimate embarrassment
UK: Hold my beer...

 

[baldgye]

What reality are we actually in right now?

The bad one.... hell that stupid photo op made the front page for his bosses at the telegraph

That half-wit Tory Telegraph columnist still can’t get her head around fake news...

 

[Liquid]

This is like a physical cartoon by Brant, on The Day Today:



What reality are we actually in right now?

As someone pointed out on Twitter, there's no better fitting metaphor than destroying a wall you put up yourself.

Edit:

No prizes for guessing what jokes are being made of this.

 

[baldgye]

Ladies and gentlemen, the next Prime Minister of Great Britain and Northern Ireland;
https://www.businessinsider.com/bor...organ-2019-12?utm_source=reddit.com&r=US&IR=T
Boris Johnson hid in a fridge to avoid a television interview as his aide swore at a reporter