Britain - The Official Thread

[axletramp]

I spent two years learning about the Industrial Revolution for my History O level. Even then I thought it was a bit weird that we weren't being taught anything more recent or relevant. I probably got closer to learning about society and population during my Geography A level when I studied human and social geography. Still, at least I know plenty about grumpy Northerners and their grim working conditions, working 28 hours a day at their Twiddleing Nancies and living 'in't shoebox in't middle of the road'.

Also, interesting to see that the O level system could be making a comeback over the GCSE 'experiment' for the last 30 years or so.

 

[DK]

I think I know more about British history from studying history in an Irish secondary school than the average British secondary school student.

 

[Liquid]

Now, we do have an old thread with sparse posts on Scottish independence but I feel this news story is worthy of the Britain thread wholly.

BBC - Chancellor says leaving the UK means leaving the Pound

Bully tactics? Yeah, of course it is. I would say I agree though. It's not as though the Sterling zone doesn't exist. Yes, it hasn't legally existed since 1979 but there are currencies pegged to the British pound at par such as Jersey Pound, Guernsey Pound, Falkland Pound, Gibraltar Pound and so on so it's not as though being part of the UK is exclusive membership to a Pound (or the Pound) currency.

However, given that Scotland is not seeking BOT or Crown Dependency status, I can understand why Westminster wouldn't want to issue its currency to another fully independent status. Independence is not an option of cherry picking the best benefits of UK membership. It is something the SNP must really consider and deliberate over in addition to other stuff I've mentioned in a few posts like border controls, railway access, airspace, maritime borders, North Sea oil, passports, continued eligibility for British passports, Schengen, army, Trident and so on.

But I don't know exactly how the SNP has addressed all these points or whether they're going for a 100% "we want independence now now now now now" and will iron out the details later.

I personally do not think an independent Scotland should retain the Pound. Retention of British currency should be part of UK membership and Scotland, if keeping the Pound is a vital issue, should seek greater autonomy instead.

 

[TheCracker]

I personally do not think an independent Scotland should retain the Pound. Retention of British currency should be part of UK membership and Scotland, if keeping the Pound is a vital issue, should seek greater autonomy instead.

An independent Scotland should reinstate the Groat as currency IMO. 1 British Pound = 25 Scottish Groats.

1 Deep fried Mars Bar = 7 Groats
4 Pack of Tennents Super = 266 Groats

 

[Liquid]

I'm pretty sure Scotland used to have a dollar as a coin.

 

[Sanji Himura]

Did a quick look see on Wikipedia, it makes no mention as to Scotland's currency before they adopted the Pound Sterling.

Still, the concept of a dollar that is somewhat weaker than and dependent on the Pound Sterling would have to give England some incentive to let Scotland have its independence, right? By dependent, I mean that when the Pound is strong in the markets, the dollar is strong with it.

 

[Touring Mars]

give England some incentive to let Scotland have its independence, right?

England will (alas) have no say as to whether Scotland becomes independent - the rest of the UK are not voting in the referendum. Of course, the 'continuing' UK will necessarily have a major say in what an independent Scotland will ultimately be like, and the first major issue is the currency. Alex Salmond and the SNP have made it quite clear what they want - but it doesn't seem to have occurred to them that they might actually have to negotiate on some things - and not just the small stuff either, but on some of the most fundamental points, such as currency, sharing the national debt, defence etc.. As the currency debacle is already showing quite clearly, there is a gulf of difference between what the SNP are demanding and what the rest of the UK might want.

I don't know enough about it to be honest, but it seems rather obvious that Scotland will have to drop the pound if it wants to be truly independent. Salmond hasn't ruled out joining the Euro, but I can tell you right now, I don't know anyone who has come out and said they'd welcome that. The other option is to create a completely new currency, but I don't know how that would go down with our European masters to whom we apparently are going to have to re-apply for membership of the EU. I don't have as much of a problem with an all new currency than I do with joining the Euro, but then I also don't know whether having a new currency has any advantages of retaining the Pound and remaining in a monetary union with the UK (hence rendering independence pretty irrelevant anyway).

Incidentally, it grinds my gears big time that 800,000 Scots living in England will not be allowed to vote in the referendum, while EU students who have only been in the country a matter of months (and who may only ever live in Scotland for the duration of their studies) will be allowed to vote. That makes absolutely no sense to me.

 

[DK]

Incidentally, it grinds my gears big time that 800,000 Scots living in England will not be allowed to vote in the referendum, while EU students who have only been in the country a matter of months (and who may only ever live in Scotland for the duration of their studies) will be allowed to vote. That makes absolutely no sense to me.

It makes sense if you're David Cameron.

 

[Sanji Himura]

England will (alas) have no say as to whether Scotland becomes independent - the rest of the UK are not voting in the referendum. Of course, the 'continuing' UK will necessarily have a major say in what an independent Scotland will ultimately be like, and the first major issue is the currency. Alex Salmond and the SNP have made it quite clear what they want - but it doesn't seem to have occurred to them that they might actually have to negotiate on some things - and not just the small stuff either, but on some of the most fundamental points, such as currency, sharing the national debt, defence etc.. As the currency debacle is already showing quite clearly, there is a gulf of difference between what the SNP are demanding and what the rest of the UK might want.

I don't know enough about it to be honest, but it seems rather obvious that Scotland will have to drop the pound if it wants to be truly independent. Salmond hasn't ruled out joining the Euro, but I can tell you right now, I don't know anyone who has come out and said they'd welcome that. The other option is to create a completely new currency, but I don't know how that would go down with our European masters to whom we apparently are going to have to re-apply for membership of the EU. I don't have as much of a problem with an all new currency than I do with joining the Euro, but then I also don't know whether having a new currency has any advantages of retaining the Pound and remaining in a monetary union with the UK (hence rendering independence pretty irrelevant anyway).

Fair enough, @Touring Mars. I was speaking of a new potential relationship between Scotland and England as one similar to the US and Puerto Rico. PR retains some sense of independence, however, they retain benefits of being a state.

 

[Carbonox]

First of all, I apologize to everyone, especially @DK and @Famine for linking to you-know-what.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ting-Sharia-law-FIVE-YEARS.html#ixzz2tL02Q65U

Basically, the "Muslim Patrol" is, as the title says, now banned from promoting Sharia law. I think Britain's going to a little better direction by showing they can make brave decisions too.

 

[Sanji Himura]

Here's a link from the BBC @Famine and @DK:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-26190817

 

[Liquid]

*snip*

All things considered; maritime borders, airspace, trident, railways, borders, EU, Schengen, passports, debt and so on, all the things publicly debated and not, what is your opinion on independence as a Scot? Be interested to hear what @daan thinks too.

 

[Touring Mars]

I'm in favour of devolution, personally.

The main argument for independence, as far as I can see from my pro-independence friends anyway, is getting rid of the influence of a Conservative government that would never get into power in Scotland if it were just up to us. The strange thing for me, however, is that the idea of being politically and financially self-determining is what independence is all about... but then in the same breath we're told that an independent Scotland would be a fully signed up member of the EU - right at the point in time when the EU is falling to pieces because, wait for it, there is not enough political and financial union. So it doesn't make alot of sense to me to leave one union (largely on the basis that unpopular policies can be imposed on a populace who largely didn't vote for them) to an even bigger union with even less accountability. But I remain to be convinced. If the benefits of independence outweigh the costs, then I wouldn't be opposed to it - but then, it is nigh on impossible to make such a claim - we'll only really find out after the process of becoming an independent nation is underway, and at that point, it will be too late to turn back if it turns out the pro-independence lobby have got their numbers wrong.

One a more personal note, I resent the implication (from some pro-independence people, but by no means all of them) that being an 'independence skeptic' makes one less Scottish. The fact is, currently anyway, Scottish people are British too. Some Scots consider themselves just Scottish, and some (like myself) consider themselves both Scottish and British - not for political reasons, but mainly for practical reasons... I have more family in England than in Scotland; I lived in London for six years and I have many, many friends in England; I consider England to be a part of my country and have seen alot more of it than I have Scotland! Scottish identity has always been something of a difficult thing to quantify/describe, but I don't think that considering yourself British makes one any less Scottish... for me it is not a question of diluting one's national identity, but being able to be both at the same time. I'm not proud to be Scottish because I didn't do anything purposefully to be Scottish. I love Scotland and I choose to live here because it is a good place to live, but then again, so is the rest of the UK generally.

 

[Tired Tyres]

I hadn't thought of that. Without Scots voting in a UK General Election, we will never be able to get rid of the 🤬 Conservative party from government.

Incidentally, is there a minimum turn out rule for this vote? Or is it possible for Scotland to gain independence with the same kind of numbers that got the Welsh Assembly authorised.

 

[Liquid]

I hadn't thought of that. Without Scots voting in a UK General Election, we will never be able to get rid of the 🤬 Conservative party from government.

Even Wales has succumbed now and has a handful of Tory MPs.

 

[ExigeEvan]

Scottish independence needs to be more honest. Defence is a personal interest of mine, and I'm pretty sure they're trying to style them self off similar sized forces (Danish Defence Force especially). But 12-16 Typhoons, pah, not for the money they're suggesting.

Even Wales has succumbed now and has a handful of Tory MPs.

Tory's had a big improvement in Wales, but I'm not sure it will continue outside of urban Cardiff.

 

[Dotini]

Overnight on the BBC radio, I heard noises that the EU might well not accept Scotland should independence come.

 

[Lizard]

Oh, come now. This is the Government we're speaking of. You expect logic?

As a politics student yes, I actually do. I don't agree with the current government and what it is doing but I understand why they think the way they do.

On the Scotland debate, who here actually think the SNP are taking the idea seriously? The polls are showing the country to stay in the UK by a large percentage. What this vote will be however is a bargaining tool for more devolved power. The SNP will say that yes we lost but 30% or however many said they want to be independent, that is a large amount of people who are unhappy and the only way to sort this is more devolution.

 

[Liquid]

Tory's had a big improvement in Wales, but I'm not sure it will continue outside of urban Cardiff.

They've got at least two in North Wales, I just hope this doesn't lead to something bigger. My constituency has been Labour since the 1950s and the current MP has been there since 2001 but his majority has been slashed.

Not that having a Labour MP is much to champion, of course.

 

[Touring Mars]

Overnight on the BBC radio, I heard noises that the EU might well not accept Scotland should independence come.

This isn't the first time Barroso (the current European Commission president) has said something along these lines, and although I think he is right to point out that there will be difficulties, I don't really understand where he's coming from - other than to suspect that he is fearful of playing into the hands of Catalan or Basque separatists and the possible ramifications that would have for Spain (which is a legitimate concern). But although there are obvious parallels to other regions seeking independence, it isn't all that helpful or instructive to compare Scotland's unique circumstances to anywhere else.

As for the EU not accepting an independent Scotland, I can't think why... that it is going to be too much trouble or hard work is not a reason to rule it out out-of-hand. And given that Scotland accounts for some 60% of EU oil production, and a third of all EU hydrocarbon production, frankly it would be ridiculous of the EU to not accept an independent Scotland.

As far as I am aware (and can be bothered to check right now), Scotland benefits pretty greatly from being a part of the EU via being a part of the UK, and I'm sure we'd continue to do so if we were independent. But the question is, how much does Europe benefit from having someone like us as a member? That's a tough question, but I'd hazard a guess that we're probably in a stronger position than some fully signed up members, like Greece for example.

 

[Dotini]

This isn't the first time Barroso (the current European Commission president) has said something along these lines, and although I think he is right to point out that there will be difficulties, I don't really understand where he's coming from - other than to suspect that he is fearful of playing into the hands of Catalan or Basque separatists and the possible ramifications that would have for Spain (which is a legitimate concern). But although there are obvious parallels to other regions seeking independence, it isn't all that helpful or instructive to compare Scotland's unique circumstances to anywhere else.

As for the EU not accepting an independent Scotland, I can't think why... that it is going to be too much trouble or hard work is not a reason to rule it out out-of-hand. And given that Scotland accounts for some 60% of EU oil production, and a third of all EU hydrocarbon production, frankly it would be ridiculous of the EU to not accept an independent Scotland.

As far as I am aware (and can be bothered to check right now), Scotland benefits pretty greatly from being a part of the EU via being a part of the UK, and I'm sure we'd continue to do so if we were independent. But the question is, how much does Europe benefit from having someone like us as a member? That's a tough question, but I'd hazard a guess that we're probably in a stronger position than some fully signed up members, like Greece for example.

Is there the desire in Scotland to retain its own ethnic, cultural and national identity and to halt immigration that would alter its character, especially from the Islamic world and the Third World?

Is there the desire for sovereignty and liberty, and not to be ruled by the European Commission?

 

[axletramp]

Wait until the EU bans IRN-BRU, there'll be riots on the streets!

Well, until the sugar wears off...

 

[Touring Mars]

Is there the desire in Scotland to retain its own ethnic, cultural and national identity and to halt immigration that would alter its character, especially from the Islamic world and the Third World?

Not that I'm aware of...

Is there the desire for sovereignty and liberty, and not to be ruled by the European Commission?

That's the question I've been asking - how much sovereignty would an independent Scotland be prepared to cede to our EU overlords? And will our acceptance into the EU fold be contingent upon it?

Wait until the EU bans IRN-BRU, there'll be riots on the streets!

And if it happens on a Saturday night, will anyone notice the difference?

 

[Dotini]

That's the question I've been asking - how much sovereignty would an independent Scotland be prepared to cede to our EU overlords? And will our acceptance into the EU fold be contingent upon it?

If the Scots are transnationalists and multiculturists, worship at the altar of economic efficiency and measure their happiness by GDP, then they can give their love and loyalty to the EU, and it will be reciprocated.

 

[Touring Mars]

If the Scots ... measure their happiness by GDP

If by GDP you mean greasy deep-fried pizza, then yes, we do.

 

[Dotini]

Ethnonationalism is roiling Europe and the world.

In the coming May elections for the European Parliament, anti-EU parties are expected to make gains. If so the EU may become paralyzed or even torn apart.

 

[MadFlavour]

First of all, I apologize to everyone, especially @DK and @Famine for linking to you-know-what.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ting-Sharia-law-FIVE-YEARS.html#ixzz2tL02Q65U

Basically, the "Muslim Patrol" is, as the title says, now banned from promoting Sharia law. I think Britain's going to a little better direction by showing they can make brave decisions too.

That's a step in the right direction but still need to get them extremist EDL nuts of the street.

 

[perrlu1]

On the Scotland independance story; assuming they do vote to be independant and leave the UK, what would the new Union Jack flag look like?

 

[Liquid]

Hopefully they'll incorporate Wales.

That does annoy me, even before we go into the whole England and Wales argument and as was noted recently "the union flag represents the whole of the UK regardless of its design". That's not the point. The flag currently, technically, still represents the whole of Ireland with the St. Patrick saltire and Northern Ireland doesn't even have its own flag.

Just add a splash of green and I'll be happy. The design with a dragon in the middle looks lame. The flag is one of a number of anachronisms which need revising.

 

[perrlu1]

Hopefully they'll incorporate Wales.

That does annoy me, even before we go into the whole England and Wales argument and as was noted recently "the union flag represents the whole of the UK regardless of its design". That's not the point. The flag currently, technically, still represents the whole of Ireland with the St. Patrick saltire and Northern Ireland doesn't even have its own flag.

Just add a splash of green and I'll be happy. The design with a dragon in the middle looks lame. The flag is one of a number of anachronisms which need revising.

I'd like to see the Welsh Dragon somewhere in the flag.
Would make it look way cooler than it does currently.