Burqa

[lbsf1]

They're great. They make fashion-conscious, shallow, proto-Lohans really easy to see from quite a long way away.

Hey don't diss my girlfriend!!!!!!!






(I'm actually single but I couldn't help saying that.)

 

[Ibonibo]

Agreed but thats what makes Sarcozy in someways awsome he is so bad that he has inadvertantly stumbled into awsomeness. He also gives them something to talk about on mock the week.

LOL. It didn't watch "les gigniols de l'info" for some time (the political show with hand puppets. Uk has/ had a similar show), but they are surly mocking him big time.

before Sarko was mayor in a suburb in Paris. There was a hostage in a school. He asked if they would release a child to show good will. They guy agreed. And Sarko said "non,non dit!" give me the black child!

That shows his mentality + his complex with his height + Carla bruni +he wanted to make his son the president of the biggest industriel complex in France (and he aborted collage!)
he's a power hunger, narcistic corrupt little dude.
plus he bashed on my country pretty bad



"Muslims moving to France don't force French people to adhere to Muslim traditions. They don't require French women to cover their faces. They don't require French people to pray several times a day. But the French still somehow feel that they can ban certain pieces of that culture because they don't agree with the root aspects, despite neither the root aspects nor the cultural pieces themselves having anything to do with anyone outside of that culture?"

And still it's require from immirgant to adapt to your country (speaking the native language,...). hey they are not obligated to immigrate if they don't wanna follow our society rules either.
if i wanna come to America i need to speak English and learn American history and obey to your rules and laws and that's fine.

I don't agree with the concept of the burka. and with the wear of it either. And we (natice europeans) can not wear everything what we want. In germany nazi symbols are forbidden. You are not allowed to wear a police uniform, you can not waer a kukus can costum either (in Us you can!).... That are rules and laws of our countries we and everybody, immirgant or native need to follow

And what you said is quite understandle that it wouldn't and shouln't ever be allowed. And french also banned catholic symobols from public places despite them beeing originally a catholic country. so they cut the same rules to them than to the islamic culture

You are not allowed to wear a gun in Europe even if you're american and if it's you're right as an american to wear a gun

 

[Famine]

No. The question is: Why do Muslim traditions have to pass European standards to be allowed when those traditions aren't being imposed on anyone outside the Muslim culture?

And, more to the point, why do we have to change European standards so that the traditions are no longer allowed?

 

[FoolKiller]

Why should Islamic women be allowed to cover their faces when the rest aren't?

Wait, no other women in Europe can cover their faces with anything? How screwed up are your laws?

but having women covering their faces wherever she goes except when she's home with her husband, is too much,

But some women believe that they should. I agree that there is a degree of oppression in the practice, but some of the women that practice that form of Islam believe it too. You aren't liberating them, you are violating their rights.

and almost as extreme as KKK in my opinion.

Until I see people hanging from trees purely because they had the wrong skin color I will say that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Um, according to my post I said I wasn"t going to be a typical American and call them terrorists. Just needed to get that across.

I understood that you were saying you aren't saying that. I also understand that you are implying that typical Americans are racist morons.
It is bad enough we get negative, and incorrect, stereotypes around the world. Don't add to it yourself.

 

[Dave A]

What are you talking about? Muslims moving to European countries don't start forcing European women to live by Muslim traditions.

I never said they did.

The question I'm asking is whether it is it right or wrong to draw a line at how far you go in accepting another culture and allowing it to mix with your own?

If you had to choose one, would you say that a country is owned by the nationals from that country or is it owned by all the people in the world? If it's owned by the world then surely you must accept all and every culture globally good and bad. If it's owned by the nationals then surely the nationals must reserve some right to choose what to accept and what not to.

For the record, the burqa is not offensive to me. I can't say I fully understand why they choose to wear it as it's not a requirement of Muslim law but I accept that some choose to wear it. However, should a law be passed that it wasn't legal to wear it then my opinion is that we reserve that right to choose and therefore they should abide by that law.

Why do our cultures of freedom try to adapt to them by banning their behaviours then?

I'm not sure I follow your question, we aren't banning their behaviors. France are banning the burqa, but they aren't stopping them from being Muslims or from practicing their religion. Why do a lot of shops and shopping centers not allow people to wear hoods up these days? Security doesn't relate to the burqa directly because there are other ways you can cover your face, but if shops reserve the right to ban hoodies then why is banning burqas suddenly a big deal? If you refused someone in a burqa entry into your shop at the moment and they kicked up fuss you'd be in the papers the next day and probably facing a day in court and a fine, but banning hoodies is absolutely fine.

 

[FoolKiller]

France are banning the burqa, but they aren't stopping them from being Muslims or from practicing their religion.

Isn't wearing a burqa a religious practice for some Muslims?

Why do a lot of shops and shopping centers not allow people to wear hoods up these days? Security doesn't relate to the burqa directly because there are other ways you can cover your face, but if shops reserve the right to ban hoodies then why is banning burqas suddenly a big deal?

Why are you talking about private property rules when the discussion is about a law banning something from use in general public?

If you refused someone in a burqa entry into your shop at the moment and they kicked up fuss you'd be in the papers the next day and probably facing a day in court and a fine, but banning hoodies is absolutely fine.

And as a private property owner I should have the right to ban a burqa from being worn on my property. But a Muslim woman in a park being told she can't wear a burqa by law is being discriminated against by the state.

 

[Tornado]

I don't agree with the concept of the burka. and with the wear of it either.

Then it is a good thing you are not Muslim, because otherwise it would actually be something that affected you.

In germany nazi symbols are forbidden.

Muslim women aren't wearing Nazi symbols in Germany.

You are not allowed to wear a police uniform,

They aren't wearing those either. There is actually a valid reason for that as well, so it really doesn't apply as a comparison anyways.

That are rules and laws of our countries we and everybody, immirgant or native need to follow

And? Knowing the language and a general run through of the history of the country is not the same thing as banning aspects of a culture only because you don't like them.

And french also banned catholic symobols from public places despite them beeing originally a catholic country. so they cut the same rules to them than to the islamic culture

Again, that sounds more like the French being the French rather than anything else. "We are an all-opportunities discriminator."


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The question I'm asking is whether it is it right or wrong to draw a line at how far you go in accepting another culture and allowing it to mix with your own?

And why do you have to draw a line in the first place? What exactly about women wearing burqas is so troubling that one would even think of making it illegal?

I'm not sure I follow your question, we aren't banning their behaviors. France are banning the burqa, but they aren't stopping them from being Muslims or from practicing their religion.

Banning the burqa does prevent certain Muslims from practicing their religion.

Why do a lot of shops and shopping centers not allow people to wear hoods up these days? Security doesn't relate to the burqa directly because there are other ways you can cover your face, but if shops reserve the right to ban hoodies then why is banning burqas suddenly a big deal?

Because I imagine most shops and shopping centers are privately owned. Store policy is quite a bit different from a national law.

 

[Danoff]

For the record, the burqa is not offensive to me... [snip]... However, should a law be passed that it wasn't legal to wear it then my opinion is that we reserve that right to choose and therefore they should abide by that law.

Just to complete the irony here, I'm going to go on record.

They are totally offensive to me. I hate them, I hate that any woman is willing to wear them. I consider them to be shameful, demeaning, and barbaric. However, should a law be passed that it wasn't legal for them to wear it then in my opinion their rights are being violated and they should NOT abide by that law.

(also, keep in mind, that I am very much in support of an individual's right to refuse to allow someone wearing one onto his/her private property... even if that property is a place of business)

 

[TB]

Are we allowed wear robber masks? No...

Good luck getting my "robber mask" away from me when it's -20°F and I have to go outside to shovel.

And yes, I have worn it into a bank. Albeit accidentally, but still...

 

[Omnis]

Um, according to my post I said I wasn"t going to be a typical American and call them terrorists. Just needed to get that across.

So you're insinuating that typical Americans say they're terrorists. You should know that that's utterly stupid. Just needed to get that across.

 

[Famine]

I'm not sure I follow your question, we aren't banning their behaviors.

Wearing some item of clothing is a behaviour. By passing a law banning that behaviour, we have adapted to their behaviour - the exact opposite of what you propose should happen.

Why do a lot of shops and shopping centers not allow people to wear hoods up these days?

I don't care. Shops and shopping centres are private property.

if shops reserve the right to ban hoodies then why is banning burqas suddenly a big deal?

Banning them IN PUBLIC PLACES is a big deal.

If you refused someone in a burqa entry into your shop at the moment and they kicked up fuss you'd be in the papers the next day and probably facing a day in court and a fine, but banning hoodies is absolutely fine.

Again, don't care. Shops are private property and should be allowed to refuse custom to any individual on any basis.

 

[LizMcQueen]

Burqa is a symbol of oppression of women in the Islamic world, like FGC, honor killing and forced marriage.
Is burqa a religious or cultural issue? absolutely not, in fact it's not specifically mentioned in the Koran.
Burqa must be banned immediately everywhere.

 

[Famine]

Burqa is a symbol of oppression of women in the Islamic world, like FGC, honor killing and forced marriage.
Is burqa a religious or cultural issue? absolutely not, in fact it's not specifically mentioned in the Koran.
Burqa must be banned immediately everywhere.

We should also ban miniskirts, the bra and anything else revealing for the same reasons.


It's an item of clothing.

 

[Tornado]

High heels are a symbol of oppression of women in the Western world, like bras, fashion magazines and dresses.
Are high heels a religious or cultural issue? absolutely not, in fact they are not specifically mentioned in the Bible.
High heels must be banned immediately everywhere.

 

[Ibonibo]

That's make no sense!!
Are you women??
i think actually bras are quite helpful to women

And highheel and panties aren't obligated to be worn. Whereas burkas are imposed to a lot of women. they are educated that way that it's a must for a islamic woman. if you would isolate a woman from islamic society and giving here the coran to educate herself to the islamic religion; she would never a burca. "It's society that corrupts the human " Russeau, humanist

So wearing a tux is also oppression to men?

The cutting of the mumu (girls girly parts) in african countries is also ok for you guys? It's their tradition and culture..

kudo to MCqueen

 

[Dijital Majik]

And highheel and panties aren't obligated to be worn. Whereas burkas are imposed to a lot of women.

That's quite a broad-stroke statement.

How many women do you personally know who are forced? Not what you've read, or heard. The world is full of sources with their own agendas.

I can easily name tens and tens of muslim women I've met/known IN PERSON, even in a relatively liberal Arab city, that wear a full veil with pride and with no pressure. They've told me it's liberating for them not to have to adhere to social fashions/sterotypes that women here have to adhere to. Also, they don't want men staring at them and/or approaching them as they walk about in public. Please think before using such general sterotypes again, it makes you appear ignorant, and de-values your argument.

As others have said, heels, bras and miniskirts can be seen as just as oppressive. I guess you couldn't see that for yourself, so I'll speel it out for you.

Have you ever talked to a woman? Do you realise how much some of them they hate wearing heels? If I had a half penny for every girl I've heard complain to me about high heels, and yet still wear them...
But some feel an imposition because of society.

 

[Dotini]

Great discussion. Obviously, sexual hangups are common to all cultures, however bizarrely different. Lots of material to mine here. Resident anthropologists Niky and Joey_D would be helpful.

 

[Tornado]

That's make no sense!!

It makes perfect sense. We have people in this thread saying that the burqa is oppressive to Islamic women. Here's the thing: It isn't.
Oh, sure, it might be under certain circumstances if it we were talking about the Western world, but we aren't. We are talking about imposing Western ideals on a specific facet of Muslim culture because it is "better" for them. Even though those people that we are "saving" don't think they need saving, and probably wouldn't want it even if they did think so.
That's not even spreading morality. That is just being arrogant.

And highheel and panties aren't obligated to be worn.

Neither are burqas.

Whereas burkas are imposed to a lot of women.

And high heel shoes aren't imposed on Western women?

they are educated that way that it's a must for a islamic woman. if you would isolate a woman from islamic society and giving here the coran to educate herself to the islamic religion; she would never a burca

You ever heard of the false sense of beauty that girls growing up in the West have? Same thing. That doesn't make every little girl bulimic in order to be a model.

If that isn't enough, note how the large majority of Western Muslim women don't wear burqas.

The cutting of the mumu (girls girly parts) in african countries is also ok for you guys? It's their tradition and culture.

Yeah, because it is their culture. This goes back to the arrogance thing above. If one of those women chose to come over here, would you be okay with forcing her to have said parts put back in? Even if she didn't care either way, or preferred things that way?

 

[GT_Prologue5]

I understood that you were saying you aren't saying that. I also understand that you are implying that typical Americans are racist morons.
It is bad enough we get negative, and incorrect, stereotypes around the world. Don't add to it yourself.

So you're insinuating that typical Americans say they're terrorists. You should know that that's utterly stupid. Just needed to get that across.

From the people I've met, most people I know would say they look like "Iraqi bombers" or some other racist comment. That's not how I feel, I respect the Muslim/Islam traditions and truthfully, the U.S. does owe an apology for being so offensive. When I say the typical American, I mean the ones who sit all day on Facebook and Twitter and drink helpless quantities of Starbucks and believe that America is the best country "in the world, dude". Note that what that means is that its not directed to any American member on here, because many people here are exceptionally smart. Instead it's directed to those who can barely think on there own. Sorry if I offended anybody here, and I didn't pin the term on myself, either. Unfortunately, some Americans are racist morons, and they need to understand that this is a planet, not a country.

Back on topic, I think its not okay to ban clothing in, as Famine stated, public places. Now it would be slightly offensive for a guy to just walk outside in his underwear, but truthfully its a personal choice. If the women feels she's obligated to wear the Burqa, then so be it. Private places are different, and thew whole hoodie thing above really doesn't make any sense, except if you see a guy in a bank with his hood up all the way, you're gonna say first thing, "is that guy gonna rob the place?" The burqa, whether in the Toran or not, is a more religous peice of clothing. Hey the Pope gets to wear a giant white robe and a hat nearly as tall as Abe Lincoln's, but it's religous. Thanks, sorry, and goodnight.

 

[Ibonibo]

Yeah, because it is their culture. This goes back to the arrogance thing above. If one of those women chose to come over here, would you be okay with forcing her to have said parts put back in? Even if she didn't care either way, or preferred things that way?

just wow

 

[LizMcQueen]

High heels are a symbol of oppression of women in the Western world...
High heels must be banned immediately everywhere.

I see a difference, if I don't use high heels (and yes, they are uncomfortable) my husband don't beat me.
Read this news, is it correct? of course, because it's their culture.

 

[Dijital Majik]

Read this news, is it correct? of course, because it's their culture.

Read this, I guess that's just American culture then I guess?

I'm sure if I looked I could find one about Spanish people too of you wanted me to?

 

[GT_Prologue5]

High heels aren't a sign of western oppression! Just a sign of women who think beauty is looking like the girl on the street corner. I don't know, just avoid me today.

 

[LizMcQueen]

Read this, I guess that's just American culture then I guess?

klansmans kill a woman and go to jail, ok, but in my example that is the law, like in Iran kill homosexuals, it's the law, it's not a crime committed by assholes.

I didn't expect so many people were in favor of burqa.

 

[Danoff]

klansmans kill a woman and go to jail, ok, but in my example that is the law, like in Iran kill homosexuals, it's the law, it's not a crime committed by assholes.

I didn't expect so many people were in favor of burqa.

Well I certainly don't favor allowing women to be beaten, jailed, or killed for not wearing one. That aspect of this is completely out of the question - so far out of the question that you don't need to mention it here.

And, as I said earlier, I don't favor burqas. I absolutely despise them. I just happen to recognize someone's right to wear an article of clothing that they choose.


Edit:

I also despise these

(as mentioned earlier)

Though not nearly as much as I despise burqas. But despite my (unequal) hatred for both articles of clothing, they remain that prerogative of the wearer. Also, I'd be happy to support a restaurant that banned both articles of clothing.

 

[Ibonibo]

Dijital Majik:
"Read this, I guess that's just American culture then I guess? "

Yes. because here in Europe such an organisation would be forbidden for the well being of the society. they are even allowed to do public demonstration. And their purpose is pretty clear to everyone.

Can an American explain me why such organizations are not forbidden by law? would really interest me from a legal point of view. I suspect freedom of speech and reunite?

 

[Tornado]

I see a difference, if I don't use high heels (and yes, they are uncomfortable) my husband don't beat me.

Great. I've read about domestic abuse cases in America that happened for far more trivial reasons that that, so I'm sure you can recognize that your situation is not the same one that everyone else faces, even if you aren't willing to extend the same courtesy for Muslims.

Read this news, is it correct? of course, because it's their culture.

klansmans kill a woman and go to jail, ok, but in my example that is the law, like in Iran kill homosexuals, it's the law, it's not a crime committed by assholes.

Your example fell apart two words into the link.

The Taliban publicly flogged and then executed a pregnant Afghan widow by firing three shots into her head for alleged adultery, police said on Monday.

Last I checked, the Taliban executing a women for not following their extremist beliefs was a crime committed by assholes. In fact, other than the religion they pretend to align themselves being different, the Taliban are exactly like the KKK.

I didn't expect so many people were in favor of burqa.

I don't see anyone in this thread who is in favor of burqas.


Feel free to try again, though perhaps you could actually use a reasoned argument instead of just throwing up the most extreme example you can think of that happens to support your cause and then demonizing the opposing viewpoint. And that goes for *ibo* S3 Racer as well.

 

[Joel]

Let me begin by saying, I, like Danoff, absolutely hate burqas.


It seems like people are having trouble with differentiating between public and private property. I have no problem with a woman wearing a burqa being refused entry to a plane, house, restaurant, or Chuck. E. Cheese (or anyone being denied entry to these places for any reason at all). However, I have a monumental problem with a woman wearing a burqa being denied entry to a public school, governmental institution, or public park. These women also pay taxes, correct? So why should we be telling them what they can and can't wear in the park which they paid for?


Like I said earlier, is it wrong for me to play hockey with my goalie mask on (in a publicly owned hockey arena)? Is it wrong for me to wear a balaclava when it's cold and the wind is blowing (on a public road/ sidewalk)? Is it wrong for me to wear a motorcycle helmet and sunglasses on a public road? No.


Can somebody explain why the burqa is any different? And before someone says "it's cultural oppression", consider this. I'm Canadian, and I know personally a lot of people whose parents force them to play hockey. Is my hockey mask now representative of kids being forced to play a sport they don't want to against their will? Because if so, they should be banned, right?

 

[Nero9]

They should'nt be banned in my opinion.

 

[Omnis]

From the people I've met, most people I know would say they look like "Iraqi bombers" or some other racist comment. That's not how I feel, I respect the Muslim/Islam traditions and truthfully, the U.S. does owe an apology for being so offensive. When I say the typical American, I mean the ones who sit all day on Facebook and Twitter and drink helpless quantities of Starbucks and believe that America is the best country "in the world, dude". Note that what that means is that its not directed to any American member on here, because many people here are exceptionally smart. Instead it's directed to those who can barely think on there own. Sorry if I offended anybody here, and I didn't pin the term on myself, either. Unfortunately, some Americans are racist morons, and they need to understand that this is a planet, not a country.

We know that. However, the kinds of remarks like the one you made are not appropriate for these kinds of discussions. Just a heads up for when you have to speak to someone in person.