Burqa

[Tornado]

They should be grateful for being allowed into the country and take part of the higher life standard of the western society, and if they want to stay muslim, they can pray and stick to their traditions in their apartment.

As it is in Sweden now our taxes are being used to build mosques in every single town, instead of improving the education and health care, which is just getting worse and worse. 👎

Just... Wow.

If you hate Muslims that much why even let them into your country at all? Sheesh.

 

[Vince_Fiero]

As it is in Sweden now our taxes are being used to build mosques in every single town, instead of improving the education and health care, which is just getting worse and worse. 👎

I believe here my tax money is used to pay priests a higher monthly check then I get.

If I could vote here (not national does not have the right yet I believe) and saw a party that would ban that spending of government money I would probably vote for it if they do not have other stupid actions on their program.

P.S.: I probably could become a national here, but this is not my goal.

Motorcycling must be crap in Luxembourg then. Not to mention hockey, respiratory filtration or stopping yourself from being very cold indeed.

See your point, there must be an exception for Motorcycle helmets, I did not see anybody being stopped wearing respiratory filtration (tourists did this here on their visits during the H1N1 thread) and people working outside do wear full coverage of their face in winter.
It is the trouble with rules they are very difficult to dose and generally overkill.

Also I would not vote for a party promoting to ban the Burqa, but I would one that bans covering your face in public. Religion vs safety again.

 

[Danoff]

As it is in Sweden now our taxes are being used to build mosques in every single town, instead of improving the education and health care, which is just getting worse and worse. 👎

Two things.

You know you have way too much government when the government is building churches. And you know you have too much government when your taxes are supposed to improve education and health care. I'll give you a hint, tax dollars won't fix it.

Edit: Third thing

Check my signature.

 

[niky]

I suppose churches are a better use of tax money?

Of course not, the problem is the sexist imposition, "you are my wife... you are something mine like my car or my TV, and you have to do what I say" that's the problem.

So, should we ban wedding rings?

The whole point is... to you a bra is a necessity. Protection against the elements and against strangers. For many, it isn't. Women in the third-world get along perfectly fine without a bra, without the worry of breast cancer... but with a lot of worry about sagging breasts. A bra is western culture. Nothing more, nothing less.

To a Muslim woman (an orthodox Muslim woman. None of my friends wears a full face veil), a veil is not merely a sexist imposition by a patriarchal society instituted many centuries ago... it is protection against strangers. A wall that they put between themselves and others as protection.

Who are we, to take that away from them? Banning a Burqa is exactly like banning the bra. If I force you to go outside without one, would you agree that it is just?

Exactly, and I'm sure burqa (as piece of clothing) could be useful in a sandstorm for example, but our society it doesn't make sense.

Neither does a bra. Or a cravat. Don't get me started on those...

It is kind of harsh, but I can only agree with the ban. After all, you are only making things easier for them. I can never see a women wearing a burkha become integrated in the country/culture she moved to.

So... do you have any Muslim friends, either? I'm finding so many preconceptions and biases in this thread that it's hard not to laugh.

Last woman I saw wearing a full burqa (not just the head-dress with the veil left down... she was hardcore... black veil and everything) graduated Magna cum Laude at our Christian school. Seemed perfectly integrated, to me. She wore a bra, too.

By banning the burkha, these women now have so more options to explore. By denying decent contact with the outside world they are only making things harder for themselves.

That's an interesting question, there are two options, he allows his wife be part the society or he imprison her forever.

And by stranding said theoretical women between a rock and a hard place, how does this law help anybody? Neither of you seem to be able to wrap your head around the concept...

women.wearing.burqas.can.go.out.and.do.stuff.

See the picture on the first page?

Cellphones! Wow! They can use cellphones? Like, aren't they mindless cattle that men own who aren't allowed any contact with the outside world?

Wow. That's like so... far out... I mean... who knew you could actually go out into the world wearing a bra and still enjoy yourself?

I moved from a Belgian culture to a Norwegian culture and even though this may be off-topic now, I do would like to say that I had to adapt myself to the Norwegian culture to get accepted. There are things that are being interpreted differently here, and it's only logical you wouldn't use or say those things when they offend the people here, even if you are used to doing it in your original country.

Liederhosen is banned, I suppose?

 

[LizMcQueen]

So, should we ban wedding rings?

with a lot of worry about sagging breasts. A bra is western culture. Nothing more, nothing less.

rings no, weddings only.

that's a good reason to use it, and for that it's necessary FoolKiller, to fight against gravity, what would happen to the girls of the The Daily Babe Thread without a bra? in two days their breasts would be on their feet, but this is another issue.

 

[Strittan]

Two things.

You know you have way too much government when the government is building churches. And you know you have too much government when your taxes are supposed to improve education and health care. I'll give you a hint, tax dollars won't fix it.

Edit: Third thing

Check my signature.

This is Sweden, not the US, and we have among the highest taxes in the world. Are you saying I should expect our money to go right into the pockets of the fatties in the government?

We have free teeth and health care up to the age of 20, free education up to university level, families gets around $130/month for each child they get until it gets 18 years old. This and much more thanks to taxes.

 

[FoolKiller]

that's a good reason to use it, and for that it's necessary FoolKiller, to fight against gravity, what would happen to the girls of the The Daily Babe Thread without a bra? in two days their breasts would be on their feet, but this is another issue.

Cosmetic vanity is not a necessity.

 

[Famine]

We have free [things] thanks to taxes.

Does not compute.

 

[GT_Prologue5]

Theoretically no, but, can you walk through the public park wearing a mankini?

Theoretically, yes, you probably could. But would you? That's for another day. A country should not have the right to ban any article of clothing. No matter how offensive or unjust. It's a persons choice to wear the clothing and if they feel obliged by religion or other than they will wear it.

 

[niky]

rings no, weddings only.

So you're going to ban me from wearing my wedding ring on my person in public? Wow. My wife isn't going to like that. I'm her private property, don'cha know.

that's a good reason to use it, and for that it's necessary FoolKiller, to fight against gravity, what would happen to the girls of the The Daily Babe Thread without a bra? in two days their breasts would be on their feet, but this is another issue.

It would help cure this strange fascination with huge breasts western men have....

 

[LizMcQueen]

Cosmetic vanity is not a necessity.

no if you use a burqa; seriously, it's not a cosmetic vanity, ask a woman with large breasts if a bra is a necessity.

return to the main topic, here the problem is the burqa, but not as piece of clothing.

 

[Famine]

here the problem is individuals who treat the burqa as a form of oppression enforced by criminal acts against the person

Red = what's really the problem.

Stop morons who treat other people as things from acting like morons and you solve the problem - and no-one's freedom to dress how the hell they want to dress in public places gets infringed. Ban the burqa and you harm everyone by taking away their rights, and you harm the people you think you're protecting the most as they become prisoners in their own home, with the aforementioned morons as the guards.

 

[niky]

no if you use a burqa; seriously, it's not a cosmetic vanity, ask a woman with large breasts if a bra is a necessity.

I'd post a picture in response to this, but the AUP won't allow it. It's easy enough to find on your own. (Google: Tribal Women Bare Breasts. Keep your porn filter on ). Are you now or have you ever been quadruple D?

I could make the same case for a Burqa. Do you know what sunlight does to your skin?

return to the main topic, here the problem is the burqa, but not as piece of clothing.

But it is a piece of clothing.

When a Pakistani woman was told that she couldn't swim in a French pool because they wouldn't allow her to wear a full-body swimsuit, she was mortified. (By the way, it was perfectly legal for the pool to refuse entry if it was a private pool).

Why?

Modesty.

That same thing that makes you wear a bra in public but not to bed.

That same thing that makes you put on a top and a bottom everyday, and keeps you from walking around the neighborhood in nothing but a thong and your oh-so-precious bra.

It doesn't matter if it's something that was forced on them by their culture... much in the same way that your culture has ingrained upon you the need to wear a bra for support (when in fact, a too-tight bra is dangerous) and that you must pluck your underarm hair.

What matters is that those very women feel uncomfortable going out in public when less than fully clothed.

By regulating what they can wear, you're telling them that in order to interact with the outside world, they must give up their sense of modesty.

Exactly the same thing as banning a bra. Again. Still.

I wonder if Sarkovsky will follow through on his idea of absolute secularism in France and ban clothing altogether. On the grounds that any and all clothing are an imposition of Puritan Christian ideals upon his citizens. Should go over well.

 

[Strittan]

Red = what's really the problem.

Stop morons who treat other people as things from acting like morons and you solve the problem - and no-one's freedom to dress how the hell they want to dress in public places gets infringed. Ban the burqa and you harm everyone by taking away their rights, and you harm the people you think you're protecting the most as they become prisoners in their own home, with the aforementioned morons as the guards.

Still the same as wearing a robber mask, Darth Vader mask, KKK mask or whatever you can hide your face behind. Be honest, if you saw a guy wearing a robber mask at the super market, you would wonder what the hell he's hiding from, wouldn't you. Especially if he wants to buy cigarettes and the staff asks him to remove the damn thing and show 'em his ID, but he won't.

 

[Duke]

The bottom line is that it is their fundamental right to choose. Force is unacceptable here.

My only exception to this is for public photo ID such as driver's licenses, etc. A person wishing to obtain an ID card like these must have his/her picture taken with his/her face uncovered, and a security officer should have the right to verify (in private, if necessary) that identity.

Assuming, of course, that ID cards in general are tolerated/required by the given society.

 

[Keef]

Still the same as wearing a robber mask, Darth Vader mask, KKK mask or whatever you can hide your face behind. Be honest, if you saw a guy wearing a robber mask at the super market, you would wonder what the hell he's hiding from, wouldn't you. Especially if he wants to buy cigarettes and the staff asks him to remove the damn thing and show 'em his ID, but he won't.

If I saw him in public I would think he's a bit funny, but I also believe he should have the right to wear whatever he feels like.

While in a private business however the choice of whether he wears that mask should be up to the business owner. If he refused to abide by my rules then he'd be thrown out, probably with police assistance. Forcing business owners to allow any and all into their stores violates their rights as a private property owner, but - get this - enacting a law saying that nobody can wear a mask in a private business also violates their rights because you negate the owner the choice in the first place. Governments should have no hand in matters like these and if they didn't we wouldn't be having stupid arguments like this.

 

[Tornado]

Especially if he wants to buy cigarettes and the staff asks him to remove the damn thing and show 'em his ID, but he won't.

That's a different issue entirely.

 

[FoolKiller]

That's a different issue entirely.

As is the KKK hood, and whatever I am assuming he considers to be a specially designed robber mask.

 

[Mark T]

How about the right to wear nothing at all. I want to walk down the street naked, but I can't because some people find it offensive. In Dubai there are very strict rules on public affection and revealing clothing. People generally abide by those rules to respect the culture. Maybe people should respect our culture of generally not covering your face.

 

[Tornado]

Then I would have to ask why you find people covering their face offensive.

 

[Famine]

super market

Private property. Try again.

How about the right to wear nothing at all. I want to walk down the street naked, but I can't because some people find it offensive.

Permitting your genitals to be exposed to children is a sexual offence. Considerably more significant than some people being offended.

In Dubai there are very strict rules on public affection and revealing clothing. People generally abide by those rules to respect the culture. Maybe people should respect our culture of generally not covering your face.

And if they don't, we'll change our culture to fit, right?

The irony here being that proponents of "FIFO" who want to preserve our culture and require others to adapt to it prefer we change our culture to make their behaviours illegal.

We don't need to change anything or make any rules. People who want to wear a full Imperial Trooper outfit can. People who are forced to against their will are already victims of crime - and it's that crime that needs sorting out, not criminalising clothes.

 

[Strittan]

Private property. Try again.

Oh no!


.............................

 

[Mark T]

I don't find it offensive. I just feel that a lot more could be done by the Muslim community to integrate into the traditions of this country.

Just read this on a Pakistan tourist information site.

Pakistan is a strict Muslim state and religious customs should be respected, particularly during the month of Ramadan when eating, drinking and smoking during daylight hours should be discreet as it is forbidden by the Muslim culture. Homosexuality is illegal. It is considered offensive to give, receive or eat with the left hand. Affection between opposite sexes is not shown in public. Women, in particular, are expected to dress and behave decorously in public; even in the large cities shoulders and legs should be covered, and men should not wear shorts.

Western Europe doesn't have these kind of strict rules apart from when visiting certain religious sites or privately owned venues. I have never seen a woman in a full burka walking down the street with a White/Black/Asian person. I believe there dress code makes it very hard to integrate into our society.

 

[Famine]

I don't find it offensive. I just feel that a lot more could be done by the Muslim community to integrate into the traditions of this country.

Just read this on a Pakistan tourist information site.

I can't say I've noticed Muslims not integrating into the traditions of this country.

But then if they were integrating, you wouldn't notice them... One in thirty people in Britain is a Muslim and, by extension, one in 60 is a Muslim and a woman. I don't recall the last time I saw anyone in a burqa.

 

[Danoff]

This is Sweden, not the US, and we have among the highest taxes in the world. Are you saying I should expect our money to go right into the pockets of the fatties in the government?

We have free teeth and health care up to the age of 20, free education up to university level, families gets around $130/month for each child they get until it gets 18 years old. This and much more thanks to taxes.

Yet you complain about needing MORE taxes to help these systems work better... and this is something you'll do for the entire time the system is in place. We have "free" (very expensive) education up to the university level here, and families get tons of tax benefits for each child (beyond 18), and we're even working on our own government healthcare system.

But what is our experience with these things? We hate our education system, cry that it's broken, complain bitterly that our underperforming, tenured, unfireable teachers are underpaid. The answer with government is ALWAYS to throw money at the problem.

But this is all beside the point of this thread. You made a statement about government-funded Mosques (which is wrong on many levels), and I made the statement that the problem is with too much government and has nothing to do with Bourqkhghas

My only exception to this is for public photo ID such as driver's licenses, etc. A person wishing to obtain an ID card like these must have his/her picture taken with his/her face uncovered, and a security officer should have the right to verify (in private, if necessary) that identity.

Assuming, of course, that ID cards in general are tolerated/required by the given society.

Agreed. If you're going to be licensed by the state to do something on public property (such as operate machinery), it is up to you to comply with the state's requirements. If that means taking a nude photo of you to positively identify you, that's what it means.

 

[Strittan]

.................

Didn't even read all of what you wrote, but I can say this country is a great in many ways (in fact ranked 7th best country to live in by UNDP last year) but things are starting to get worse, and I think the huge amount immigrants coming here each year (currently well over 10% of the population and increasing fast) is one of the reasons.

This is not about immigrants though, it's about the burqa, so sorry for bringing that up.

About the burqa, they're coming here, not the other way around, so I think they should adapt to our society, not the other way around, and if they don't like it here they can simply go home.

Now you're saying "no one should adapt to anything, we should mix everything together", but I don't think it's that easy because our cultures and valuations are so different it's like comparing day and night.

 

[Famine]

About the burqa, they're coming here, not the other way around, so I think they should adapt to our society, not the other way around, and if they don't like it here they can simply go home.

You're advocating adapting your society around them - by changing your rules to outlaw their behaviours.

 

[Keef]

And by outlawing things that you don't like you're going to go from a free society that people enjoy living in to a totalitarian society where everything but an ideal human will be outlawed. Like Nazi Germany.

 

[FoolKiller]

About the burqa, they're coming here, not the other way around, so I think they should adapt to our society, not the other way around, and if they don't like it here they can simply go home.

You just reminded me of this:

 

[Scaff]

I can't say I've noticed Muslims not integrating into the traditions of this country.

But then if they were integrating, you wouldn't notice them... One in thirty people in Britain is a Muslim and, by extension, one in 60 is a Muslim and a woman. I don't recall the last time I saw anyone in a burqa.

Saw a woman wearing one in Tesco today, didn't bother me one little bit. No more I image that me being covered in woodstain bothered her (time of year to do the fences).

Didn't even read all of what you wrote, but I can say this country is a great in many ways (in fact ranked 7th best country to live in by UNDP last year) but things are starting to get worse, and I think the huge amount immigrants coming here each year (currently well over 10% of the population and increasing fast) is one of the reasons.

This is not about immigrants though, it's about the burqa, so sorry for bringing that up.

Then exactly why did you mention it?

Strikes me that the only reason would be to try and stoke some flames, fortunately for us GTP is a level-headed place to post. You should try the Daily Mail (UK tabloid rag), that would go down a treat with the people that post on the forums they have.

About the burqa, they're coming here, not the other way around, so I think they should adapt to our society, not the other way around, and if they don't like it here they can simply go home.

As Famine said, you are advocating changing laws to adapt to them (and therefore your society).

They are not breaking a single law (in your country or mine) that I am aware of, and as such fail to see the problem at all.

Now you're saying "no one should adapt to anything, we should mix everything together", but I don't think it's that easy because our cultures and valuations are so different it's like comparing day and night.

As someone who has worked with Muslims and who's father spent over a decade working in gulf state countries I can quite honestly say that you are talking nonsense.

Yes some parts of the cultures do differ (as all cultures do), but common ground abounds, and this is mention from experience not (what sounds like) knee-jerk paranoia.



Scaff