Burqa

[DK]

They're great. They make fashion-conscious, shallow, proto-Lohans really easy to see from quite a long way away.

Plus they make good slippers.

 

[GT_Prologue5]

I don't recall the last time I saw anyone in a burqa.

Maybe you'll see one at Gamescom.

Yeah, a little off-topic...

Then again, it depends how much you get out. If you're out a lot, there's a higher chance of seeing a burqa.

I'll go away now....

 

[lpb-nissan-gt-r]

Well this is very confusing issue and there are not many pro's to banning the burka, but IMO I believe we should not be forced what to wear in order to fit in a 'uniform'

I go to a catholic school with a fairly strict but by passed uniform code in order to promote a good image of our school, but this is often taken to far as we are not allowed to have a hair cut shorter then a number 4, or longer then our collars or partially cover eyes. Coats have to be dark colours and no facial hair is allowed.(which is technically sexism) There is also a scarf issue that I can relate to I had my scarf taken away from me becuase one side was white and the other black I had the white side on my skin so it appeared as a black scarf but with about 1/2 inch white at the end which was only just showing, I had the scarf covering up too the bottom of my eyes outside as I was extremely cold, I could have appeared 'intimidating' but when I was at school I took it down to reveal my face.

The school took away my scarf as it did not fit in with the uniform code when I asked the head teacher about this he simply swept it under the rug by saying 'it did not fit in with the uniform code' although it did by my point is If we as humans aren't allowed to express as flicker of individualty then whats the point in us being who we are?

I believe that every woman has a right to wear what they want providing they cover up there private areas but if Im not allowed to wear a balaclava why should someone be able to cover up there faces and without knowledge of who that person is how are we meant to distinguish who they are from somebody else?

The only pro I can think of for banning the burqa is for security reasons.

Paris

 

[Keef]

Well this is very confusing issue and there are not many pro's to banning the burka, but IMO I believe we should not be forced what to wear in order to fit in a 'uniform'

I go to a catholic school with a fairly strict but by passed uniform code in order to promote a good image of our school, but this is often taken to far as we are not allowed to have a hair cut shorter then a number 4, or longer then our collars or partially cover eyes. Coats have to be dark colours and no facial hair is allowed.(which is technically sexism) There is also a scarf issue that I can relate to I had my scarf taken away from me becuase one side was white and the other black I had the white side on my skin so it appeared as a black scarf but with about 1/2 inch white at the end which was only just showing, I had the scarf covering up too the bottom of my eyes outside as I was extremely cold, I could have appeared 'intimidating' but when I was at school I took it down to reveal my face.

The school took away my scarf as it did not fit in with the uniform code when I asked the head teacher about this he simply swept it under the rug by saying 'it did not fit in with the uniform code' although it did by my point is If we as humans aren't allowed to express as flicker of individualty then whats the point in us being who we are?

I believe that every woman has a right to wear what they want providing they cover up there private areas but if Im not allowed to wear a balaclava why should someone be able to cover up there faces and without knowledge of who that person is how are we meant to distinguish who they are from somebody else?

The only pro I can think of for banning the burqa is for security reasons.

Paris

You go to a private school, you follow their rules. Those rules only have to follow the laws of the land and that's about it. If they don't want you to wear a scarf you either don't wear a scarf or you switch schools.

 

[lpb-nissan-gt-r]

Its not a private school and that wasn't the issue.

 

[Keef]

Its not a private school and that wasn't the issue.

You said it was Catholic, which means it's certainly not entirely publicly funded. It seems in England some of your Catholic schools are partially publicly funded, but none of them are entirely. It's run mainly by the Catholic church and that means they can pick and choose who gets in and what rules they have to follow. A private school is almost just like a private business. The issue you brought up was basically whether or not you have to follow the rules of a private establishment.

 

[Joel]

You said it was Catholic, which means it's certainly not entirely publicly funded. It seems in England some of your Catholic schools are partially publicly funded, but none of them are entirely. It's run mainly by the Catholic church and that means they can pick and choose who gets in and what rules they have to follow. A private school is almost just like a private business. The issue you brought up was basically whether or not you have to follow the rules of a private establishment.

My Catholic school is fully publicly funded. Canada FTL. But your point still stands, I support private institutions being able to set their own rules. As I said earlier, if my boss told me I had to wear a Storm Trooper costume, I would for one, love my job, and secondly, respect his right to make that rule.


Back to the topic at hand, I agree with Nissan-GTR. The only decent reason for banning the burka is security, and that doesn't work in a society that allows ski masks, hockey masks, welding masks, and sports team mascots.

 

[CTznOfTime]

No this shouldn't be allowed. While I have no care what the Muslim/Islam traditions are, I know that anyone can hide under that face-cloak thingy. I'm not gonna go all American on thier asses by saying they look like terrorists, but they do look threatening, even if they are women. It's just not proper attire to walk down the street with a mask on. I do remember one time in Virginia, I saw a Muslim women with on of these things on and I thought "wow how out of place is that? "
Then I thought "Wow she must be dying wearing that" (It was 95 degrees out.) I just find it strange. Yes it is tradition and they are very strict people, but that is not something you wear in public. Thank god the country I'll move to someday has outlawed these.

Oh and ExigeEvan, I really wanted to say " well women belong in the house anyway" but I resisted. Because its mean to say things like that.

They probably were wearing nothing at all underneath their Burka...

Take that islamic men... you can cover your wives... but i can still imagine her naked in my mind

 

[YSSMAN]

My TL;DR on this issue is pretty simple, I guess. I generally don't like the idea of a burqa, especially when we're looking at it from a feminist perspective. But, to ban it in in all public places... It is pretty outrageous. I could maybe understand the Socialist-supported ban in (public) schools or government buildings, but anything beyond that is crazy.

However, what concerns me most are the anti-Islamic feelings that have been drummed up all over the west.

 

[GT_Prologue5]

They probably were wearing nothing at all underneath their Burka...

Take that islamic men... you can cover your wives... but i can still imagine her naked in my mind

Well it was still a long black body covering piece of clothing. Oh and try telling that last one to an Islamic man.....have fun.

And I seize the right for you to make my words red. Nake them...green. Yes, green..... *moves hands evily*

 

[niky]

My TL;DR on this issue is pretty simple, I guess. I generally don't like the idea of a burqa, especially when we're looking at it from a feminist perspective. But, to ban it in in all public places... It is pretty outrageous. I could maybe understand the Socialist-supported ban in (public) schools or government buildings, but anything beyond that is crazy.

However, what concerns me most are the anti-Islamic feelings that have been drummed up all over the west.

Drummed up? Probably just brought to the limelight. I doubt that westerners now are any more tolerant of Arabs than they were ten years ago... or twenty... or thirty.

Women's rights in Islam are getting better in some places, not in others. It's a frustratingly slow process, and it's disheartening to look at women's rights in many Muslim countries.

But in the end, allowing them to go out and about in the modern world is the surest way to liberate them. But by calling attention to their differences simply by discriminating against them legally will simply discourage some from actually integrating into western society, and may actually cause their men to restrict their freedoms in a much greater way than they are restricted now.

 

[lbsf1]

They probably were wearing nothing at all underneath their Burka...

Take that islamic men... you can cover your wives... but i can still imagine her naked in my mind

A couple of weeks ago Jeremey Clarkson made some remark about islamic women wearing thongs under their burka's, and he got in serious trouble about it. Just saying

 

[Omnis]

A red G-string, not a thong.

 

[niky]

Interesting, reading up on this issue the past two days.

Interesting how close to totalitarian France is getting, and how racist many parts of Europe are becoming.

It seems Europe has found its new Jew, as there are few Jews now to blame for their political and economic problems. And it is the Muslim. I'm just waiting for the French Senate to append "deportation" to the law, as a form of punishment for burqa-wearers.

Only, in this case, there won't be a need to create an Israel. France can deport the whole Muslim subpopulation (including non-Arabic Muslims, weirdly) to Afghanistan.

 

[Famine]

Handily, ultra-orthodox Jewish women wear a burqa too.

 

[niky]

Handily, ultra-orthodox Jewish women wear a burqa too.

Too bad the gypsies have stopped wearing them. France could get rid of the whole lot. [/sarcasm... much sarcasm]

I am sitting in the office right now, getting ready to go home, surrounded by tittering Malaysian girls in headscarves and blue jeans. They're here on a six-month study exchange program and are having the time of their lives away from their patriarchal masters, who, perplexingly, have let them leave their country and live without a chaperone for the past half year. Must tell them how wonderful it would be to visit France, next, where their liberties will be even better protected.

Just don't try to go swimming at a public pool.

 

[Vince_Fiero]

When a Pakistani woman was told that she couldn't swim in a French pool because they wouldn't allow her to wear a full-body swimsuit, she was mortified. (By the way, it was perfectly legal for the pool to refuse entry if it was a private pool).

I remember that case, the rule is that "you can not cover large parts of your body that could hide contentious disease", you are not allowed to swim in a bermuda in that pool either and a lot of people complain about that, but they just do not get the same media attention.

A couple of weeks ago Jeremey Clarkson made some remark about islamic women wearing thongs under their burka's, and he got in serious trouble about it. Just saying

I saw a documentary on the sales of lingerie in countries with Islamic law, they need to adapt the pictures on the packaging, only women in the shops or sales at home, etc... but they do sell well in these countries!

Handily, ultra-orthodox Jewish women wear a burqa too.

This comes closer to my experience in the past. I was working in a part of Antwerpen where a lot of immigrated people lived, of which I believe a large part was Muslim, but there was almost no shocking clothing there.

However the next block these

generally shocked me seriously (you do not see their knee high white socks in this picture).

Now these families have their own habits, comply by the law, lived in Belgium maybe longer then my family, ....

I would also be shocked that they would forbid high white socks, together with black hats and long hair in front of your ears (sorry if this description sounds offensive, it is just meant as a description), without any security reason.

Just about being shocked, these are lyrics from Kamini (French rapper), about a reaction of an old man in a village:

« J'aime pas les arabes hein, J'aime pas les Noirs, mais toi j't'aime bien, même si t'es Noir »

Translation: I do not like arabs, I do not like blacks, but you I like, even though you are black.

I think a normal form of (Oxford Advanced Learner's dictionary):

xenophobism: a strong feeling of dislike or fear of people from other countries

If you do not know it, it might be threatening, so do an effort and get to know it.

It is not the feeling that is bad, it is the way you act on it.

Permitting your genitals to be exposed to children is a sexual offence.

Offense against a law that is there to protect. However in Africa and Asia there are populations that do not have this law and might not have any need for this law.

============
On the Burqa:

• People should be able to wear what they want
• People should not be forced in subjective roles

we just need to find a way to combine these in laws (or better no laws) and support structures to realize this.

 

[Famine]

Offense against a law that is there to protect.

Note that I didn't say the law was necessarily correct - just that he'd have more to worry about than offending people if he wanted to wander round in the buff.

 

[Vince_Fiero]

Note that I didn't say the law was necessarily correct.

I did understand that indeed, I'm getting used to your statements.
Just wanted to illustrate there are differences in needs and priorities between different societies.

=============

Be clear I remain with my view:
1) No law is generally the best way (but the wild wild west/gangs of New York style was not working according to me).
2) I support laws

• "against covering your face fully and this for security reasons",
• "against any practice that might not give every individual their full human rights"

so indirectly against the Burqa.

 

[Famine]

I disagree that "no law" is generally the best way. But only insofar as "necessary law".

In this case, many complainants are worried about the domestic abuse aspect of burqa wearing. Well, we already have laws against domestic abuse (and even if we didn't, they'd emerge from, as the Americans word it, the right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness) so we don't need to introduce any specific law to deal with this aspect. Introducing the law would, in cases where women are forced to wear a burqa to be allowed out in public by abusive family members, lead to those women not being able to ever go out in public - which is considerably more harmful to them.

In your case, being against "covering your face" in public for security reasons would make riding your motorbike a much more hazardous occupation - along with many other activities which all-but require full face coverage in public. It's fundamentally inconsistent and thus undeserving of law. However, private property (including governmental buildings) may require an uncovered face on the premises - again, this is not meritorious of a law to be passed, since no laws should be enacted to limit the requirements on private property above and beyond those that apply to public places.


We don't need a law that says you can't wear a burqa. We need to enforce the laws on violence (of which domestic violence is a subset).

 

[Nicknamealguem]

I think covering your face in public, except when something requires you to do so, should be forbidden, for security reasons.
I really thought that was common practice in western countries.

Also, a motorbike helmet it's really a good comparison with a burqa, since you only use it when ridding a motorbike, which has a license plate that can identify you. Normally, it's common practice to take off the helmet the minute you exit your motorbike.

 

[Famine]

I think covering your face in public, except when something requires you to do so, should be forbidden, for security reasons.

She believes she's required to by her interpretation of her religion. Next?

I really thought that was common practice in western countries.

Not as far as I'm aware - otherwise France wouldn't have gone to the trouble to make a specific law.

Also, a motorbike helmet it's really a good comparison with a burqa, since you only use it when ridding a motorbike, which has a license plate that can identify you.

Licence plates are not personally identifiable material. You cannot tell who is driving/riding a vehicle by its licence plate.

Normally, it's common practice to take off the helmet the minute you exit your motorbike.

Which explains why all banks, shops and petrol stations have signs telling motorcyclists they won't be served until they remove their helmets then?

 

[KSaiyu]

They should never be banned in public places, but I hope one day I'll never see them in public places.

 

[Nicknamealguem]

She believes she's required to by her interpretation of her religion. Next?

I said required in therms of physical protection. Motorbike helmets, soldering helmets offer protection, but they are only used for the end purposed (motorbike helmet while ridding a motorbike; soldering helmet while soldering).

Walking around with your face covered just for the sake of it, can make you a suspect and the police all over you.

Licence plates are not personally identifiable material. You cannot tell who is driving/riding a vehicle by its licence plate.

The license plate can indirectly tell who's driving/riding a vehicle.

Which explains why all banks, shops and petrol stations have signs telling motorcyclists they won't be served until they remove their helmets then?

They have? Not here, that's for sure. It's common practice to take it off once you get off a motorbike, unless you will/want to preform a robbery.

 

[Famine]

I said required in therms of physical protection.

No. You said "required". "Required" is a giant mess of terms. A motorcycle helmet is "required" in that many places have laws saying you have to have one in order to ride your motorcycle. Women who wear burqas out of the house might believe that they are "required" by the rules of their particular section of their religion (Jewish Orthodoxy, for example).

People believe that these are required in crowded cities:

Going to ban those? Why/why not?

Burqas provide protection for the skin from harmful sunlight, the mouth from harmful insects flying into it, the ears from loud noise, the hair from pollution and water and the lungs from pollution.

Walking around with your face covered just for the sake of it, can make you a suspect and the police all over you.

Even more so if you make it illegal, for some reason.

The license plate can indirectly tell who's driving/riding a vehicle.

If my car is stolen, does the licence plate mean I'm still driving it?

Licence plates are not identifiers of the individual.

They have? Not here, that's for sure. It's common practice to take it off once you get off a motorbike, unless you will/want to preform a robbery.

Go to a gas station and have a look at the door.

 

[lbsf1]

No. You said "required". "Required" is a giant mess of terms. A motorcycle helmet is "required" in that many places have laws saying you have to have one in order to ride your motorcycle. Women who wear burqas out of the house might believe that they are "required" by the rules of their particular section of their religion (Jewish Orthodoxy, for example).

People believe that these are required in crowded cities:

Going to ban those? Why/why not?

No I wouldn't ban them because they are a peice of health equiptment (lets not go into whether its actually needed or not). Its like saying doctors can't wear masks when operating. Burka's arn't a peice of medical equiptment.

 

[Famine]

No I wouldn't ban them because they are a peice of health equiptment (lets not go into whether its actually needed or not).

Whether it's needed or not is exactly the point.

Its like saying doctors can't wear masks when operating.

In almost every possible way, it's exactly not like that at all.

Burka's arn't a peice of medical equiptment.

Prove that the face masks cyclists wear are more beneficial to their health than the burqa-wearer's burqa is beneficial to theirs.

Since you can't and the face mask is just as much an item of clothing the wearer chooses to wear as a burqa, you'd have no problem banning them both in public places.

 

[Ibonibo]

Drummed up? Probably just brought to the limelight. I doubt that westerners now are any more tolerant of Arabs than they were ten years ago... or twenty... or thirty.

Women's rights in Islam are getting better in some places, not in others. It's a frustratingly slow process, and it's disheartening to look at women's rights in many Muslim countries.

But in the end, allowing them to go out and about in the modern world is the surest way to liberate them. But by calling attention to their differences simply by discriminating against them legally will simply discourage some from actually integrating into western society, and may actually cause their men to restrict their freedoms in a much greater way than they are restricted now.

That for once is a good an valid agrument: Kudos

Interesting, reading up on this issue the past two days.

Interesting how close to totalitarian France is getting, and how racist many parts of Europe are becoming.

It seems Europe has found its new Jew, as there are few Jews now to blame for their political and economic problems. And it is the Muslim. I'm just waiting for the French Senate to append "deportation" to the law, as a form of punishment for burqa-wearers.

Only, in this case, there won't be a need to create an Israel. France can deport the whole Muslim subpopulation (including non-Arabic Muslims, weirdly) to Afghanistan.

That is simply not true and insulting. (now don't come with 2nd WW cause just look at the Monroe Experience, all human tends to be burocrates (1/3-5)) I don't want to start comparing liberties and immigration rights of different countries because Europe actually has very open immigrant rights.

Just for an Exemple : my country has more than half (52%) of non natives and we get along very well and only a very tiny % is not good integrated (1-2%)

As for if i know islamic woman : yes i know and have friendss.
10 years ago i gone out with a turkish girl and we get along very well but her father and brother were hindering us in our joy because i was not a muslim and that bothered them that much that our relation broke. So you can't say i'm racy because nearly all my friends are foreigners

 

[Famine]

Just for an Exemple : my country has more than half (52%) of non natives and we get along very well and only a very tiny % is not good integrated (1-2%)

Wikipedia paints a different story - 38% of Luxembourgers are of different nationalities - 170,700 people from 493,500 population - and 70% of those are from Portgual (56,000), Italy (20,000), France, Belgium and Germany (47,000 combined). More than half (62%) are thus natives.

Islam accounts for 6,000 Luxembourgers (1.2%).

 

[Ibonibo]

Wikipedia paints a different story - 38% of Luxembourgers are of different nationalities - 170,700 people from 493,500 population - and 70% of those are from Portgual (56,000), Italy (20,000), France, Belgium and Germany (47,000 combined). More than half (62%) are thus natives.

Islam accounts for 6,000 Luxembourgers (1.2%).

1. taking wikipedia as a reliable source is not a good thing to do.
2. i talked about natives (don't know if that's the right word) but that with the 52% i also encounted the people who got a luxemburgish id even if they'd come from different countries (in the same generation) (this was made my the Statec a statistic gouvermental entity)