Burqa

[Pierced Lead]

I'm an Arab girl and I read this whole thread. It just saddens me how misinformed people still are about this issue. Though I can't actually blame anyone as you are all sitting thousands of miles away from where these "burka" women come from. People fail to realize that their backgrounds aren't as complicated as everyone makes it sound like.

It's a different world out here, you gotta see it to believe it.

Exactly my thoughts. I happen to be a Muslim too.

Many of you guys, whether against this law or not, happen to believe that wearing the burqa is torture for the women, they don't want to wear it but are forced to do so by their husbands or fathers. For the majority of Muslims, this is completely untrue. They happen to wear it by their own will and according to most women I asked they feel much more secure, liberated and free in the burqa.

The burqa does not necessarily have to have a certain design or shape, it's basic purpose is to conceal the woman's body from anybody in the public to prevent any bad thoughts to run through those people's minds. Sure some of you may say it's overkill but apparently that's not how it is to them. That being said, it can simply be a blanket or a large cloth put over the woman's ordinary clothes, so long as the body shape cannot be seen.

Also, the veil women wear on their face is known as niqab, and the entire black covering is the burqa or abaya.

 

[Famine]

Actually, most people against banning the burqa recognise and have stated in this thread that there are voluntary wearers of it. Most people in favour if banning it believe it to be subjugation of women.

 

[Vince_Fiero]

I'm an Arab girl and I read this whole thread. It just saddens me how misinformed people still are about this issue. ...

Exactly my thoughts. I happen to be a Muslim too.

... They happen to wear it by their own will and according to most women I asked they feel much more secure, liberated and free in the burqa.

The burqa does not necessarily have to have a certain design or shape, it's basic purpose is to conceal the woman's body from anybody in the public to prevent any bad thoughts to run through those people's minds. ....

Thank you for your input.

I must support that I do believe that people that create these laws to help Muslims are:

1. lying and have complete other objectives or
2. missed to really talk to the people that understand this practice

I hope that you had the impression the threads helps on understanding the issue better for people that are misguided.
Clearly input from people that live the practice should be fully valued here, it is a view that is sadly underrepresented.

 

[LizMcQueen]

they don't want to wear it but are forced to do so by their husbands or fathers

for me that's the only problem, imposition, if you want to wear a burka, a helmet or a mask, it's your (free) choice.

it's basic purpose is to conceal the woman's body from anybody in the public to prevent any bad thoughts to run through those people's minds. Sure some of you may say it's overkill...

overkill? slightly.
I guess I'll have to read much more about islamic culture to understand that.

 

[niky]

for me that's the only problem, imposition, if you want to wear a burka, a helmet or a mask, it's your (free) choice.

I don't like wearing three-piece suits and ties. And yet I'm forced to by my religion to do so during weddings and funerals. Should other people be stripped of them because of this? It's their choice to wear three-piece suits. Or burqas. Or nun's habits. It's none of my business what they choose to wear.

overkill? slightly.
I guess I'll have to read much more about islamic culture to understand that.

I'd say anything beyond a thong and band aids is overkill. My wife may not agree.

 

[Keef]

they don't want to wear it but are forced to do so by their husbands or fathers

for me that's the only problem, imposition, if you want to wear a burka, a helmet or a mask, it's your (free) choice.

What? He specifically said that the majority of Muslim women are not forced to wear a burqa. Why did you take his statement out of context in order to fit your argument?

 

[LizMcQueen]

What? He specifically said that the majority of Muslim women are not forced to wear a burqa. Why did you take his statement out of context in order to fit your argument?

I know, the original sentence is up there.
I did that to say this is the main problem to be against the burqa. I didn't want to cause any misunderstanding, sorry.

 

[Hollow]

.

 

[Vince_Fiero]

The law was accepted in France.

 

[FoolKiller]

The law was accepted in France.

Another reason I won't live there.

 

[Public'sTwin]

From what I've been able to discern, the rise in burqa-wear was associated loosely with the Iranian Revolution and the ensuing control + emphasis on religious doctrine which followed; my impression is that, following the imposition of "new" religious 'law', [the practice] transformed socially from an imposed rule into a custom of habit, one which, as an enforcement becomes norm and loses the sting of oppression through the nature of convention—and as a right taken away which new generations didn't have to lose in the first place—they (Iranian muslims) are simply accepting of it.

To elaborate, the younger Arab generations of wealth—ones which we are seeing being 'exported' to Western and European countries, and bringing with them their customs—which have grown up with this practice in commonality, just as a person who grows up carrying a weight on their back does not feel its burden, are perfectly comfortable with the nature of wearing the burqa, hijab, niqab. And there is no blame or shame in this, for even if originally an instrument of oppression, it can become a symbol of strength or cultural identity, especially with the aid of propaganda, and for those raised in general comfort with its usage. However, older generations seem to retain a level of bitterness, a memory of the oppression and its implementation, but are made indifferent by the passage of time.

I believe that our Western eyes see the hijab & burqa as an instrument of oppression because of its origins—within the context of mid-late-20th-century socially-progressing Iran (distinct from the rest of the Arab-world), that is—and still appropriate (retain) now the connotation [the hijab] had then. I do not believe this is an incorrect appropriation of its' symbolism, simply one that has been left behind: as the parent culture ('young' Iran) adopts new meanings for its symbols, so too should the non-related cultures (the west) recognize those adoptions, for it's ignorant of [us, essentially (expressing GTP's predominantly Anglo-Euro-Asian demographic)] to continually impose the meanings of our own impressions of another society's customs upon them.

I don't believe many will disagree with my last sentiment, though I am sure there is plenty of room for interpretation and correction of the processes which I used to draw that which I have inferred, as they are based only in a smattering of instances of Iranian arts and activism. I maintain that my hypothesis speaks only of the circumstances of the Iranian; I cannot speak to the rest of the Arab world, though the varied accounts here seem to be in keeping with the trend that other cultures do not attach such a religious identification with the burqa.

Other areas also exhibit that reverence for the burqa and hijab, notably Afghanistan and some areas of Pakistan; I posit that this is in part due to cultural and particularly political spill-over from Iran—both countries being de facto supporters or non-enemies of Iran's.

Discuss.

 

[Christian_C]

Am I asked to put the hood down on my jumper when in a shop/building/etc?

Yes.

And if I refuse to do so what happens?

I'm asked to leave the shop/building/area/etc

Is that fair when someone can walk around with something entirely covering their face?

I don't think it is. This isn't me necessarily saying that I approve of the banning of the burqa just that I believe it shows a unfairness to the whole thing regarding clothing that either fully or partially covers your face/head.

Either ban or accept everything like this but don't have double standards that are unjust to some groups (within reason of course).

 

[Famine]

Am I asked to put the hood down on my jumper when in a shop/building/etc?

Yes.

And if I refuse to do so what happens?

I'm asked to leave the shop/building/area/etc

Is that fair when someone can walk around with something entirely covering their face?

I don't think it is. This isn't me necessarily saying that I approve of the banning of the burqa just that I believe it shows a unfairness to the whole thing regarding clothing that either fully or partially covers your face/head.

Either ban or accept everything like this but don't have double standards that are unjust to some groups (within reason of course).

You're talking about private property. People on private property are subject to whatever rules that property owner - the person who pays for it - set. The ban applies to public places. Everyone pays for public places - which is why it's unfair to make rules which discriminate against people in public places.

In short, a shop can ban motorcycle helmets and that's legally and morally fine. A country may ban religious headgear and that's legally fine but morally broken.

 

[Public'sTwin]

You're talking about private property. People on private property are subject to whatever rules that property owner - the person who pays for it - set. The ban applies to public places. Everyone pays for public places - which is why it's unfair to make rules which discriminate against people in public places.

In short, a shop can ban motorcycle helmets and that's legally and morally fine. A country may ban religious headgear and that's legally fine but morally broken.

I exploit this rule to the fullest extent in all of my convenience stores: my clerks wear Lucho Libre masks, while guests are not even allowed shirts.

 

[Vince_Fiero]

http://www.leparisien.fr/societe/se...-qui-dit-non-a-la-burqa-22-01-2010-787034.php

This article above is about an Imam, who does not see a full face covering cloth as a Islam practice, nor as something from the Coran.

He comes from Tunesia and seems very much in favour of adapting practice to the local culture.


He also asked for dialogue and not penalties and regrets the moves of political parties before the consultation of the Muslim community had come to a conclusion.

 

[blaaah]

Ok just been reading a reminder about how next month, 11th of April, in France, face coverings will be outlawed. This covers everything and anything that can cover a face, No hoods/masks/scarfs etc that cover the face. Your face must be open to all in public, whether is outside or inside.
The bill is officially called the bill against "covering one's face in public places"
Exceptions:
Helmet For riding a motorbike
A place of worship
Celebrations
Parades
Sports
As a passenger in a private car.

Members of the public and public officials are advised to call the police if they see anyone covering their face, they must not rip off the covering themselves.
The penalty for covering the face is a 150 Euro fine and a citizenship class.
If a person, such as a husband or family member is shown to have insisted a Muslim woman wear a veil that person faces a 30,000 Euro fine and sent to prison for a year.
The last bit is the only bit I agree with, tough action against forced religious practice.


A disgusting law, and to me using the exceptions easily legally broken.
Stupid.

At the moment I see the poll is an interesting 50/50 split. I voted yes, but I do worry a lot about peer pressure rules and brain washing religious ways.

 

[Keef]

The reason the poll is 50/50 is because half the voters are mindless bigots.

 

[Sam48]

The reason the poll is 50/50 if because have the voters are mindless bigots.

You're right, I definitely should have voted "no".
Just kidding, but you're right, I do find it quite surprising that in an area where we have freedom of religion, the polls are tied.

 

[Tornado]

I do find it quite surprising that in an area where we have freedom of religion, the polls are tied.

I don't. For a variety of wholly depressing reasons.

 

[drivehard]

I don't. For a variety of wholly depressing reasons.

 

[TT3AZ]

We also had an discussion about these things in the "Islam In America" thread. And the reason they are wearing burqa in the west is a complex question, with more than one answer.

The complexity is that in countries that you have freedom of faith, for example Sweden. People can do things, and then say it has to do with their religion. According to some people, it is due to their religion they are wearing burqa, and they think its their right to do so.In Sweden for example, there are no law against wearing burqa, and i dont think there would be a law either. Why? Well, the politics are to dependen on peoples votes, and that is shy you can see that no actions are taken (with any kind of problem). According to me, I dont mind the burqa, but the question is as i wrote in the other thread, what is the consequences of those wearing burqa in western countries? Once again its the mentality of people that has to change, and forcing people by laws, will only cause riots etc. I think many muslims, specially those that have a hard life living in west would see this burqa-banning as an personal attack on their faith, because according to them, the society want to prevent them from expressing their faith.

You must look at this from different angles, and what is keeping them motivated to wear these clothes in western countries, when they know there are peoblems. Some time i get the feeling that this burqa thing is more of a mentality that a religion.

Regarding the veil, its still uncertain weither it is a must for woman or not, according to different scholars of islamic history. You also must have in mind, that all actions that can be related to religion cant be expressed in the western world, weither its from the quran, bible, or the torah. If we let religion get impact on our laws, then we get a theocratic society, and that is what west is against (as long as we speak of other religions than christianity).

 

[zedextreme8177]

We also had an discussion about these things in the "Islam In America" thread. And the reason they are wearing burqa in the west is a complex question, with more than one answer.

The complexity is that in countries that you have freedom of faith, for example Sweden. People can do things, and then say it has to do with their religion. According to some people, it is due to their religion they are wearing burqa, and they think its their right to do so.In Sweden for example, there are no law against wearing burqa, and i dont think there would be a law either. Why? Well, the politics are to dependen on peoples votes, and that is shy you can see that no actions are taken (with any kind of problem). According to me, I dont mind the burqa, but the question is as i wrote in the other thread, what is the consequences of those wearing burqa in western countries? Once again its the mentality of people that has to change, and forcing people by laws, will only cause riots etc. I think many muslims, specially those that have a hard life living in west would see this burqa-banning as an personal attack on their faith, because according to them, the society want to prevent them from expressing their faith.

You must look at this from different angles, and what is keeping them motivated to wear these clothes in western countries, when they know there are peoblems. Some time i get the feeling that this burqa thing is more of a mentality that a religion.

This

Being a Muslim, I can safely say that the Niqab is not a requirement of Islam at all. It stems from Arab culture, which is now being exported as from Saudi shores part of Islam itself.

It becomes somewhat ironic to wear a Niqab in Western countries, as it's sole purpose is to be inconspicous.

I personally wouldn't mind whether it was banned, even here in our Islamic country. The Niqab was only introduced to our country in the 2000s, when scholars who studied in Saudi Arabia returned to the Maldives. It still bugs me when I see a woman wearing it, I personally wouldn't want to be involved with anyone who does.

 

[TT3AZ]

This

Being a Muslim, I can safely say that the Niqab is not a requirement of Islam at all. It stems from Arab culture, which is now being exported as part of Islam itself.

It becomes somewhat ironic to wear a Niqab in Western countries, as it's sole purpose is to be inconspicous.

I personally wouldn't mind whether it was banned, even here in our Islamic country.

That is true, but people fail to understand that islam and arabic customs are not the same. Unfortiunatly many "arab" people think they have the divine right to islam.

 

[blaaah]

Just a reminder that the law has nothing to do with the Burka per say, it's a total ban of covering the head/face. It effects millions of people, when only a few hundred wear the burka or Niqab. It's a rule on peoples rights not religious rights.

 

[Azuremen]

Just a reminder that the law has nothing to do with the Burka per say, it's a total ban of covering the head/face. It effects millions of people, when only a few hundred wear the burka or Niqab. It's a rule on peoples rights not religious rights.

To remove the rights of a minority under the excuse of protecting the majority does not make it right.

 

[blaaah]

The rights of a minority have not been removed, the rights of everybody have been removed.

 

[Azuremen]

The rights of a minority have not been removed, the rights of everybody have been removed.

With the direction being at a minority. You certainly wouldn't feel the impact of this, much like how smoking bans in privately owned businesses may restrict everyone, but really just target a minority.

And further, why should this right be restricted?

 

[blaaah]

I don't know why you seem to think I approve of the right being revoked. I already said i voted yes.

 

[Azuremen]

I don't know why you seem to think I approve of the right being revoked. I already said i voted yes.

Because you seem to be taking the stance that suppressing the rights of a minority is fine for the perceived greater good. Perhaps you should consider how you present yourself when posting, because you seem to like to play Devil's advocate just to generate a stir at this point.

 

[blaaah]

Because you seem to be taking the stance that suppressing the rights of a minority is fine for the perceived greater good. Perhaps you should consider how you present yourself when posting, because you seem to like to play Devil's advocate just to generate a stir at this point.

Can you quote me on that perception of yours?
But in any case nothing wrong with creating a stir. Having said that in this case, I didn't. I think you may have confused my posts with someone else's. I have written quite a few strong words about how offended I am about this ruling in France.