Bush message to GM and Ford: Step your game up

[a6m5]

No wonder Kerry couldn't beat Bush. Poor b*stard........ j/k

 

[niky]

Don't worry... the Dems will probably get someone pretty to run next time... but he'll probably be up against Arnold... and Arnold just has to become President sometime, I mean, they predicted it in "Demolition Man".

I know Sly was poking fun at Arnie in that movie, but I bet he had to swallow a big one when Arnie actually won the California governorship.

 

[Wolfe]

Actually, since 88% of the poulation lives in Metropolitan Statistical Areas, while about 12% doesn't, and less than 1% live outside any Micropolitan Areas, the "rural vote" excuse doesn't fly. Since one person has one and only one vote; if 50% of the population voted for Bush rather than Kerry, even with the worst margin of error, you can't claim that the rural vote changed the outcome of the election.

Electoral college. Look it up.

GM doesn't rely on foreign sales, Opel is GM, get that through your heads. It's not like Opel is any different, they are still part of GM.

No, I think you're the one that has to get it through your head. Yes, Opel is GM, but Opel is not Detroit.

 

[FoolKiller]

But seriously, Reagan rode his looks all the way to the White House.... so did JFK... I have no doubt Bill Clinton banked on his.

While this helped, particularly with JFK and the first televised debate, these were all three charismatic speakers as well. They had body language and personalities that could convince people they were correct even if they disagreed 100%. I know people who disagreed with nearly all of Clinton's policies but still think he was a great president because he made it all make sense when he discussed it and then talk about how great Reagan was too. They may be automatons for thinking like that but they still vote.

This charisma factor is why I was shocked that Bush won either election. Granted Al Gore was abore and Kerry looked like Lurch but I was sure that Bush's speaking problems wiuld hinder him greatly. I think the Democrats made it into a joke more than an issue and Bush grabbed on to that to show he had a personality that Gore was lacking. He turned a speech problem into a charisma point. It was brilliant and I found myself shocked at the boldness of a move like that and how well it worked.

 

[Joey D]

No, I think you're the one that has to get it through your head. Yes, Opel is GM, but Opel is not Detroit.

GM is based in Detroit but it's companies all over the world. Just like if Toyota was failing you wouldn't say Lexus is to blame. Opel is GM, plain and simple.

 

[a6m5]

GM is based in Detroit but it's companies all over the world. Just like if Toyota was failing you wouldn't say Lexus is to blame. Opel is GM, plain and simple.

I'm not too sure about that. No matter how much shares GM own, Opel does not fit into the GM group the way Chevrolet or Pontiacs do.

 

[Jay]

The government shouldn't really bail out any company, it's like welfare and I hate welfare.

Happens all the time here, Mitsubishi Australia has gotten plenty of bail out from our government and still is closing an engine plant.

Ford wanted to do some redesigning to their L6 engine for the BA Falcon and asked our goverment for help and recieved it. Its common place over here but I have not heard of Holden (GMH) or any other car maker asking for any handouts.

 

[skip0110]

Ford wanted to do some redesigning to their L6 engine for the BA Falcon and asked our goverment for help and recieved it. Its common place over here but I have not heard of Holden (GMH) or any other car maker asking for any handouts.

Very interesting, I had the idea that the American makes were doing pretty well in Australia (even though they pretty much leave Ford AU and Holden to their own devices).

 

[Jay]

Yeah Holden and Ford are doing pretty well, Ford atill wanted government money though.

It was at the time Ford wanted to overhaul their AU Falcon (the Falcon everybody loves to hate).

 

[Pupik]

Electoral college. Look it up.

Which comes from the population's votes, no?

 

[FoolKiller]

Which comes from the population's votes, no?

But rarely does the electoral college and the popular vote coincide in a close election.

 

[Wolfe]

GM is based in Detroit but it's companies all over the world. Just like if Toyota was failing you wouldn't say Lexus is to blame. Opel is GM, plain and simple.

Oh, I get it! So those Germans over there are proof positive that the good ol' American boys are gettin' the job done and showing the world what Detroit is capable of...?

I know very well that GM owns Opel. Big whoop. The fact remains that Opel, a German company, does its own work, in Germany, and some of their stuff gets shipped to the usa, from Germany, to be put into "american" cars like the Cobalt.

It doesn't matter if you think Opel is a shining example of the "good" in GM, and it doesn't matter that I think Opel is a thoroughly mediocre company.

Either way, one fact remains. Opel is not Detroit.

Which comes from the population's votes, no?

With how much I dislike the nation's government and electoral process, I'm surprised I know more about how it works than you do.

Here are a couple of relevant quotes from the Electoral College article at Wikipedia:

In theory even in a pure two-party race, a candidate could win the election by receiving only 23% of all popular votes, if these were distributed in an ideal way (for him/her)—i.e. if they won enough small states by the narrowest possible margin and got no votes at all in the larger states.

Here, "small" means "least populous," which is another way of saying "mostly rural."

...the Electoral College disenfranchises those voters in every state who cast their votes for the candidate receiving fewer votes in that state. And it also partly disenfranchises voters in larger states by reducing their proportional contribution to the final election result. For example, in 1988 the combined voting age population of the six least populous states (Alaska, Delaware, North Dakota, South Dakota, Vermont, and Wyoming) plus the District of Columbia was 3,119,000, and carrying 21 Electoral votes between them. The State of Florida, which had 9,614,000 persons of voting age carried exactly the same number of Electoral College votes: 21. Each Floridian's potential vote, then, carried about one third the weight of a potential vote in the other states listed.

 

[dropzone]

Either way, one fact remains. Opel is not Detroit.

I agree 100%. I can't believe that Hummer is what's saving GM(sourced form Autoline Detroit on Speed Channel), thank in part the DUB culture for that one. And this wasn't how I thought the direction the thread would go, but it's all good.

 

[Keef]

"More appealing cars" isn't going to fix it. Here's the problem: American workers get $25 an hour, asian workers get $5 an hour. That means they can step up quality an production while still saving money. We can't. This uber-economy worked well for a few hundred years, but it's finally catching up with us. I think the day will soon come when the government says "Sorry, everyone, but we can't pay our debts, so we're just going to forget about it. Okay?"
Another note, just for the heck of it: Imagine playing GT8 with only hydrogen cars! Woohoo! They can make the graphics better because they don;t have to record engine sounds! You'll be able to see the water dripping out of the exhaust.

 

[Poverty]

Are you for real. They get $25 an hour. They should be pullin in around 60-70k a year then.

If it really is such a big problem then they should opne some factories abroad.

 

[Keef]

Are you kidding? I live in Dayton, OH, West Carrollton to be exact. Right down the street from the Moraine factory where GM builds Trailblazers, Envoys, Rainiers, the deceased Bravada, 9-7Xs, did I miss any? Well, yes, the guys that work on the line and have been there about 10 years can make upwards of $25 an hour.
Open factories abroad, eh? I'd say over half of the "American" cars and trucks we buy are assembled over seas. You remember the Camaro? It was built in Cananda since it was born, yet everyone says it's one of the most American cars ever sold here. Japanese companies are bringing their factories over here because they can, and we have more readily accessible machining technology and (slightly) better material, mostly steel. We used to produce the best steel in the world back in the day; you could see the difference in quality, literally. Not anymore, because those steel workers made more money than the automotive factory workers!

 

[Poverty]

Then why do american cars have a reputation of using lesser quality components and parts compared to their opposition.

 

[Keef]

That's the thing, we can't match their quality because we can't afford it--we pay too much in wages and benefits and such. They don't have those expenses. It is extrememly complicated, everything affects everything else, it's a lose-lose situation. That's the side effect of having a sweet economy with money to spare. The money runs out, eventually.
I'm not an expert, though, and I wouldn't mind hearing a genious's opinion, like Danoff or Famine. Get them in here.

 

[a6m5]

Asian workers get more than $5/hr., unless you are talking about China or something, I don't know how much they make. It is true though, that American company spend far more money on their workers than the Japanese do. In the States, Union is so strong that workers are not only over paid, their benefits are out of control, effectively ruining the companies financially.

 

[niky]

It all stems from the Japanese way of accomplishing industrial processes. Back in the 80's, US electronics firms were astonished that Japanese electronics firms talked of failure rates 1000 times less than the US companies had. US companies had to struggle to compete. Nowadays, they can. US car companies, on the other hand, were shielded by their large volume, and never had the spurs put to them to perform as well as the Japanese.

But US companies are getting there. In certain cases, US cars are more reliable or as reliable as the competition, but Japanese companies have built such a reputation from such low reject rates and problem rates that it's become a religion among car buyers to go Japanese... like it's the magic mantra that makes all car problems go away.

 

[a6m5]

I remember reading about those "failure rates". It was either late 80's or early 90's, and the American products were like literally decade or more behind the rates of comparable Japanese products. Today, it might be a bit closer.

It seems Toyota is the only one with the big lead in quality these days. I get the impression that quality of Japanese automobiles are still slightly above average, but this "rep" they have built up will probably fade away in another decade or so. Probably not completely, but almost. Detroit might not reap the benefits of their comeback just yet, but as long as they keep up their hard work, I think the success should catch up with their effort.

 

[Poverty]

In the UK we buy german if you can afford. If not its ford and vauxhall. Only japanese manufacturer taht does relatively well is honda.

 

[Keef]

Well that's intersting. How many Pounds does a BMW 545i cost over in England? A fully equiped version (or near it), according to this here Road & Track, costs $62,620. I know British pounds are worth more than a USD, and this fancy converter tells me 1 Pound is worth $1.74. Damn, I didn't know it was that big a difference. Anyway, that translates to 35,975.19 Pounds. That is vs. Dollars. So how much would one actually cost? I'm sure you could dig through a Top Gear or something to find out.
I can't think of any other cars off the top of my head that are sold in the same trim in England as in the States. Do they sell Viper SRT-10s there yet? If they do they cost about $85,000, which translates to 48,842.74 Pounds. Haven't seen prices like that here since the 80s.
And, a6m5, I was exaggerating the wages, for the Japanese companies, anyhow. These days they are probably doing pretty well, though it used to be terrible. Almost like our old sweatshops. I think down in Korea they aren't doing as well, and, in China, I can't see working environments being very pleasant--maybe they have changed?

 

[Famine]

BMW 545i ... costs $62,620...

that translates to 35,975.19 Pounds.

Sure you want an answer to that?

£43,405, in basic trim. Fully "pimped" you're looking at just over £71,000 - $124,000.

 

[Keef]

Holy **** you guys are getting gipped! I thought it would be cheaper because it doesn't have to be shipped as far. You guys probably have crazy high taxes for everything, though.

 

[a6m5]

And, a6m5, I was exaggerating the wages, for the Japanese companies, anyhow. These days they are probably doing pretty well, though it used to be terrible. Almost like our old sweatshops. I think down in Korea they aren't doing as well, and, in China, I can't see working environments being very pleasant--maybe they have changed?

These days!? When I grew up there 20 years ago, cost of the living was actually higher in Japan than the United States. I remember that guys flipping burger in the fastfood joint near my house were making 7 - 9 bucks an hour, where in the States, you'd be making closer to 4, 5 bucks an hour(mid 80's). Chinese probably shouldn't apply here, since they don't sell cars in the States. I don't know much about car manufacturing in Korea, but I'm sure the workers make really good money. Just not outrageously high salary and benefits.

One of the article that I read said that GM(could've been Ford) loses about $1,000 for every car they sell to the benefits they pay to their workers, which probably includes the retired workers. It's not that Japanese and Koreans aren't paying their people, the problem is the U.S. auto makers being hindered by the Union that's little too effective.

 

[YSSMAN]

GM has to build about $1500 into every vehicle for employee heathcare and pension fees, which is hurting their bottom line pretty bad. Its the UAW's fault that GM, Ford, and DCX are in such a pickle when it comes to finances. every GM product is compeditive German and Japanese cars, but after the beancounters go through and pick apart the car so they can pay everyone, the car becomes less than expected and looses out to the competition.

However, it seems to be changing. The new GMT900 Tahoe is a good example, as well as the new W-Body cars, and the Kappa models as well.

 

[Keef]

Quality is going up, quickly, actually, with the new generation of cars and trucks from FoMoCo and GM. But I don't know if quality is enough to bring back the deficit. The government says to step it up, but that costs money. I think we'll get out of the slump, but it'll probably take while.
GM, especially, needs to differentiate their designs more. I'll use the good ol' minivans as an example. I know Ford's Freestar is a big hunk of crap, along with the Mercury Monterey. That's 2 hunks of crap. Now, the Chevy Whatsitcalled, oh, the Uplander, and its stable mates, the Pontiac SV6, Buick Terraza, and Saturn Relay. I believe Saab has toyed with the idea of a minivan, too. That's 4.5 hunks of crap. They all look 90% the same, and everyone knows this. They didn't even bother to change the headlights. The grille and bumpers are the only difference.
Pontiac will never compete with BMW. The last time I checked BMW has never made a front drive car.
Ford has its problems, too, but GM's are more apparent so I like nagging on them. You get the idea, though. There are a lot of cars that are money losers the moment they hit the drawing paper. Ahhh, thinner paper, there's a money saver...

 

[Famine]

The last time I checked BMW has never made a front drive car.

 

[niky]

That was an easy set-up.

But you did notice, BMW just had to buy the brand name to make the car under. Which makes it weird that they went ahead and did the X5 and X3 after they bought... oh... and sold Land Rover.

Then again, that still brings us back to the same point. BMW doesn't make FF cars... it sees the money in them, so it creates a different division for them. They don't make BMW Coopers, Mini Coopers, (and if they still had Land Rover...) Land Rover Coopers, like GM does with just about any hit product they get their hands on (Equinox for one... Solstice for another.).