Bush message to GM and Ford: Step your game up

[Keef]

I said BMW, not BMW AG. It like the difference between Ford and Ford Motor Company. BMW, the car maker, not the corporation, doesn't make FF cars. Mini is its own company within the corporation.

GM is the epitomy of horrendous platform sharing. I played a joke on the local Saab dealers with my buddy a couple months back. I walk in and I say "I'd like to check out one of those new Trailblazers."
The salesman was like "Saab doesn't make a Trailblazer. Our SUV is the 9-7X, which has much higher quality and is a lot more sporty. It's a Saab, after all."
"Oh, I could have sworn that was a Trailblazer...oh well. Lets Go, Tyler.", and we walked out. We were cracking up; every salesguy in the place was just standing there looking at us, and they didn't look very proud, either.
GM is really bad, though. Just because we can't buy an Opel GT over here doesn't mean we don't know that the Saturn Sky is exactly the same, but with less power and a different badge. I'll give them credit for the Solstice, though, it looks hot and is different from everything else.

P.S. I forgot to add in my previous post that BMW uses real leather.

 

[YSSMAN]

When GM does it's platform sharing, you have to think of the different brands as brothers fighting over who gets the new toy, and then ask why all of them didnt get one.

Back in the '50s and '60s, many of the cars were mechanically identical, but the brands did a good job of giving each car it's own character and each served a specific purpose in the lineups at GM.

Take for example the differences between Pontiac and Chevrolet. Although they have essentially been the same brand almost always, it has been Pontiac's mission to be the sporty, youthful version of your father's everyman Chevrolet.

These days, it has gotten out of hand, and even GM has admitted it. They announced a while back that Pontiac, Buick, and GMC would join in what I like to call a "invisible merger" that would combine their product lineups to form what would be a "super brand" that appeals to all segments of the market. Thats why cars like the Bonneville have dissapeared, Buick plans to get rid of the Terraza (possibly) along with the Rendezvous and Raineer. Therefore Pontiac would become the "bread and butter" models that appeal more to active and younger folks, while Buick handels the upscale versions of the baisic cars, and GMC takes over the truck production.

However, I find it strange that Buick and GMC will get a version of the new crossover. I think its called the Buick Enclave and GMC Acadia (as well as the Saturn Outlook)...

 

[Keef]

Just speaking of trucks now, I think Cheverolet should take all the basic trucks, which they already make, and GMC should get rid of their "basic" trucks and only make the Denali versions. That way you'd have the working man's truck, Chevy, the fancy workable trucks that an engineer might drive, GMC, and the lux trucks for rich people that couldn't build a wooden box if taxed to, Cadillac.
It would be more difficult to change around the car companies, though, because they all have such well known names with the American people. Cheverolet, Pontiac, Buick, Saturn, Cadillac. Obviously, over time, Cadillac will become a real Mercedes/BMW/Lexus/etc. competitor, so that segment is taken care of. Keep Cadillac. I'm not sure who would take the sporty segment, Pontiac or Saturn, though I'm leaning toward Pontiac. They could become a Infiniti/Acura competitor, as I veiw these companies more sporty and less lux than the Germans and Lexus, or they could compete directly with Nissan and Honda if they're upscale brands move too upscale. But, in my eyes, Saturn could just as easily become a sporty company as could an economy company. Maybe Ponitac should take care of the upscale sport while Saturn takes care of the inexpensive cars required by young people and the sporty versions of those, like Red Line, that some highschool kids can afford. I know a few that have done well and bought <$25,000 cars like that. I think Chevy should be the regular person's car company, though they already are. They could build bigger, slightly more expensive cars than Saturn (i.e. Impala vs. Saturn's version of the Cobalt which would be their most expensive car). Move the Aveo over to Saturn and keep Cheverolet a step above cars like that. Chevy's lineup should start at the Malibu and minivans. Saturn shouldn't have minivans or big SUVs, just hatchbacks, small sedans, and CRV-type competitors. Chevy's highest models should be SRT competitors, not luxury versions. They need to move SS much more toward high performance with low cost, just like SRT. Once Ford's SVT gets going again it will be like that, also, like it was before. So Chevy would have performance/light lux versions of big cars and Saturn would have strictly performance versions of small/economy cars. That means no Sky. Which brings me back to Pontiac which would have middle luxury versions (read: Acura) of Chevy cars, but with distinct design inside and out, and with specific ride/handling tuning. These would be more handling cars while Chevy would be more for power. Pontiac would have the Solstice, with nice leather and heated seats and such. Acura doesn't have one of those, so they would probably start one up.
So, where was I, oh yeah, Buick. There really isn't any space left for Buick in that previous paragraph, which is why it ends up being the company that gets cut.
Another thing: Saab isn't "Saab" enough. No Trailblazer, only sport/lux crossovers. They should make their own engines and handling and stuff, along with hatch versions of all cars, so they can get their famous Saabness back. Hummer is good, but make it a Jeep killer. Hardcore offroad stuff, along with all-independent suspension. If it's good enough for the military (see: Humvee/H1) it's good enough for redneck four-wheelers. If they can't afford the IRS modifications, they should have bought a Jeep or an Chevy. What else do they sell here? That's it I guess.
And how dare they think Subaru makes better cars than Saab! My side hurt the first time I heard about that Saabaru. Opel and Vauhall appear to be the same company, just sold in different countries. Why not make them different companies and sell them in the same countries together? And why doesn't GM own any fancy brands (like FoMoCo with Aston, Jaguar, and LR)?

 

[kennythebomb]

Jobs bank - read it and weep

My college is an engineering college in Flint, that used to be GMI (General Motors Institute) so I know this stuff fairly well. All the car factories in Flint are closing, it seems.

Not only do the workers who work get paid too much, but the workers who are in the jobs bank are paid to do nothing, and some are forced to stay there and cannot even do something productive, like community service.

 

[YSSMAN]

I would agree with you for the most part, but not completely.

Chevrolet does a good job competing with the companies it is supposed to, Ford and Dodge, as well as Toyota and Honda. I would agree that they have a lot of models that need to be trimmed back (in terms of variations) or completely cut all together. They really need to get rid of the SSR, Uplander, and Aveo as they neither sell well or really ad anything to the Chevrolet lineup. Word is that the introduction of the Camaro will also bring in a RWD Impala and Monte Carlo, which would be placing the two former W-Body cars in direct competiton with the Charger/Magnum from Dodge. Trucks are something that Chevrolet has gotten really good with, and my only complaint in that department is how stupid the Trailblazer EXT is, and that it should be cut completely. I'm sure a new version of the Trailblazer is on the horizon, so that problem may be faced sooner than we think.

Pontiac is indeed placed as an Acura compeditor as you had said before. As the affordable yet sporty cars in the GM lineup, they now slot between Chevrolet and Saturn in the updated product lines at GM. If anything, Pontiac only needs to ditch the Torrent and the Montana, as they too are slow sellers and generally dont do much for the Pontiac line as a whole. As for the future, there may be a replacement of the GTO by the Firebird (possibly, word was that the GTO will dissapear after 2008), and if the W-bodies go RWD with the Camaro, chances are the Grand Prix will follow along with the Impala/Monte Carlo. Pontiac does a good job of injecting plenty of sport going up to 8/10s and offers a good ammount of value in their vehicles, but they still have a little more work to do if they want to match the 10/10s cars available at the Acura dealer.

Saturn finds itself in somewhat of a two-faced state at the moment. While they continue to offer lower-level vehicles a-la Ion and L-series (maybe they stopped making that car...), the VUE and Relay are slotted pretty high in the GM line. With the revamp of Saturn currently under way, GM had said that they want Saturn to continue to be a youth-brand, but have the ability to compete with higher-level Hondas, Toyotas, and the lower level Lexus, Infinity, and Acura options. The new Aura (baisicly the new Vectra) has been set up as the bold new car to turn Saturn around, along with the Sky (the American version of the Opel GT), and the Outlook crossover (see Buick Enclave). I dont know if Saturn plans to completely ditch all of their affordable vehicles, but they should be the ones selling the minivan, not Chevrolet/Pontiac/Bucik.

Buick, its a tough call for Buick. Their purpose has been changed now that Oldsmobile is gone, as Buick has been clasified as the Lexus and Chrysler fighter here in the US market. Cars like the LaCrosse and Lucerne are great at what they do and IMO are better than many of their compeditors. But having Buick sell the Terraza, Raineer, and Rensezvous is just plain stupid. Buick needs to go back to the old days, and see what is missing. They need to be the "poor man's Cadillac" that they once were, while also offering good "everyman lux-models" that cars like the Regal and Rivera once were.

Saab has lost it's "Saabiness," I'll give you that. Although the 9-5 is still very much a Saab product, the 9-3 has become a mish-mosh of Saab and GM parts, and it just isnt what it used to be. On the same tolken, the 9-2X and 9-7X should be having the Saab founders spinning in their graves... They dont do much to hide the fact that they are heavily based on other vehicles, but they have done a good job of giving them a Saab-like personality. But it is true that Saab needs a small car to compete with the Volvo S40 and BMW 1-series, and an SUV to compete with the XC90 and X5. The problem is, Saab doesnt have the resources to make the cars and trucks on their own anymore, and they have to dig though the GM parts bin to find what they need.

Cadillac is doing the right thing. They build cars people of all ages and demographics would want, and they have done a good job of making them compete greatly with BMW's, Mercedes-Benzes, etc. If there is any complaint about what Caddy is doing wrong, they need to fit the 469HP version of the 4.4L S/C V8 under the hood of the XLR instead of the 444HP model, and they need to do a better job with the interiors of the cars.

Hummer, well, they are just going to have to be Hummers. As the top-line SUVs in the GM lineup (besides the Escalades), they do a pretty good job of offering a good ammount of luxury and utility at a somewhat (somewhat is open to your own call there) affordable price. My only problem with Hummer is that they dont cover a wide enough range of products to compete directly with Jeep and Land Rover. The H1 Alpha obviously sits atop that heap, but being that the tuck hasent been revised in such a long time, it has been far surpased by the Range Rover and Cayanne as the SUVs of choise when it comes to lux-off-raoding. The H2 plays a similar role as the H1, but does a far better job at doing so. But even only a few years old, the design seems dated, and needs an improvement...Hopefully a new GMT900 version is on the way soon... As for the H3, it just hasent lived up to the expectations that everyone had forseen. While they are selling pretty well, they lack engine power, and should have utilized the Vortec I6 as opposed to the I5 that is underpowered for such a heavy vehicle. However, they need a sub-H3 model to compete with the Wrangler, which could easily be done. Modifying the current chassis that underpins the Colorado/Canyon, they could use a mish-mosh of parts from other trucks to make a compotent off-road vehicle, and using the 4200 I6 out of the Trailblazer, they could match the new 3.8L V6 in the 2007 Wrangler pretty easily.

 

[Keef]

I gues I agree, but I think what I think. Anyway, the H1 doesn't compete with anything. It is a status symbol. It's not a gimmic, it is extremely functional, but I don't think anyone who wants a luxury offroad vehicle would consider the H1. Unless they want to be cool and be seen. The only thig it does well is hardcore offroading. I want to see a comparison of the LR3 and the H1, strictly an offroad comparison. There is nothing on foutr wheels, stock from the factory, that can do anything near what an H1 can do offroad. It really has no competitors, but it fills a niche market. I don't know what they're going to do with it when the military stops using Humvees, which will come within the decade most likely.
That was really irrelevant to the original argument but I wnated to throw it in there. I can't think of anything else to argue.

 

[YSSMAN]

...I'm not sure what the plans are when the Humvee is discontinued. Apparently the talk of that happening is comming much faster than expected, but there havent been any government contracts offered to any of the manufactuers as of yet.