Camber Theory

[Dotini]

Idk yet, but it does seem like the camber is screwed in GT6.

I used a 562 PP GSX-R/4 over and over again winning at the Suzuka 10-lapper, trying to investigate camber effects on lap times and tire wear in particular. I used replays and the improved tire heat indicators to make a series of adjustments to the suspension and drive train, finally concluding that camber changes too much over 0 had an adverse effect.

 

[Tazz69]

Yea camber is screwed take any street car you have.. Go online test your tune around 500pp with no camber front and rear. Then add as much or little camber to the front or back or both and no matter what with nothing else changed your times will be slower. Camber as it is now only takes away grip from whatever end of the car its added to. we figured this out about 2 weeks ago online in our little group that gets together and tunes in the same room...

 

[ace004]

Yea camber is screwed take any street car you have.. Go online test your tune around 500pp with no camber front and rear. Then add as much or little camber to the front or back or both and no matter what with nothing else changed your times will be slower. Camber as it is now only takes away grip from whatever end of the car its added to. we figured this out about 2 weeks ago online in our little group that gets together and tunes in the same room...

That is the same conclusion I have came to after testing camber improvements on a couple cars. It seems to only be useful if you want to lose grip at one side of the car. I wish we could do some real scientific testing.

 

[CSLACR]

I said the inside wheel gains positive camber. You said I was not right, and that the inside wheels gains camber.

You are agreeing with me while trying to correct me, and I'm trying to clear up my confusion.

I wasn't trying to correct you, I simply took pictures and asked, "like this"? (It didn't take long to see that nobody ever uses negative caster anymore)
Although I found it interesting to see that my car is very close to 0 caster.

I used a 562 PP GSX-R/4 over and over again winning at the Suzuka 10-lapper, trying to investigate camber effects on lap times and tire wear in particular. I used replays and the improved tire heat indicators to make a series of adjustments to the suspension and drive train, finally concluding that camber changes too much over 0 had an adverse effect.

As far as I've seen, 0.1 is exactly as much less grip than 0.0 as 0.2 is to 0.1.

Literally anything over 0.0 loses grip.

HOWEVER - There are additional effects on camber tuning in GT6 besides pure grip.

 

[Goruk]

HOWEVER - There are additional effects on camber tuning in GT6 besides pure grip.

Could you elaborate on that....

 

[Dotini]

Could you elaborate on that....

I suspect what CSLACR is hinting at is, beyond tire wear, the predictability of breakaway, i.e., the behavior of the tire at the moment it loses traction, and how suddenly or predictably this occurs.

 

[BlueShift]

HOWEVER - There are additional effects on camber tuning in GT6 besides pure grip.

I agree.

Lock the LSD via full brakes @ full speed then left full accel then rigth, drift away perpendicular to your movement, don't touch brake or accel and the direction.

A camber following your weigth distribution will make you somehow stop in the same position, and you can use it a lot at your advantage while racing especially on semi drift cars in L turns (needs sometime some slitgh 0.1 changes when removing the hood for a carbon one or susp effects).

Was the same in GT5 btw, that was a method to find front/rear weigth distrib among others.

 

[PsuPepperoni]

After the patch, any amount of camber still results in slower lap times. The GT3 cars all come loaded with camber, and they feel so much better without it.

 

[PsuPepperoni]

I just tested camber on patch 1.04.

The Nismo GT-R GT3 was two seconds faster around GT Arena with the stock camber removed, so I'm calling it still not fixed

 

[FussyFez]

I would be inclined to agree. It's not fixed, and doesn't work how it should.

But, I am seeing a difference in handling with camber, that is different to pre 1.04...


Any thoughts?

Or does the fact that it still doesn't work how it should mean we don't care, and we still want proper camber?!

 

[PsuPepperoni]

If there is a a difference in camber effects, my memory isn't good enough detect it.

But yeah if 0 is still the best, handling changes with added camber don't mean much to me.

 

[Voodoovaj]

I've had the opposite finding. Every car I've tested with camber has gone faster. That said, I haven't tested the GT3 cars yet.

I updated my wizard to provide camber values now BTW. I'm taking height, width, and weight into account, so I'm guessing the GT3 cars will result in a VERY small number (less than 0.5?)

 

[PsuPepperoni]

I've had the opposite finding. Every car I've tested with camber has gone faster.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but could you provide some statistics, rather than just "faster"?

For example, this is my evidence:

Gran Turismo Arena
GT-R NISMO GT3 Base Model
Added Fully Adjustable Suspension
Stock Camber: (F 3.5) (R 2.9)

Gran Turismo Arena
GT-R NISMO GT3 Base Model
Added Fully Adjustable Suspension
Adjusted Camber: (F 0.0) (R 0.0)

 

[Voodoovaj]

WOW that's a lot of camber!

I'll try to snap some picks, but I've been testing all night to find a formula. I always think like a game programmer in these cases. They want to approximate camber gains, so it may do a few things besides simply adding grip. I noticed that higher camber results in a MUCH more lively car, but (for most cars) less than 1.5 seems to be the best.

btw, I was testing on Ascari and everything gained around 0.5 seconds over a 0.0 setting.

I'm just about to go grab a GT3 car and I'll get back ASAP.

 

[ADR_PILOFINO]

An excellent laboratory for testing and making observations in GT6 on camber effects would be the Suzuka 10 Lap Challenge Race. It's a decent race because the AI don't act stupid and pit twice. Every car we are likely to run will have to pit at least once, and the tire wear is clearly seen corner by corner. In a recent race, I pitted lap 5 with indicators all 7's. End of race they were 8's and 6's (and my rear end was sliding), but the rears had extra wear because I had a spin which instantly took them down one number.

I plan to run numerous races at different camber settings and judge the effect on lap times and tire wear, if any. I invite others to do the same!

i would never test any car after you enter the pits as it screws the tyres. the fronts don't wear and the rears wear excessively

 

[Voodoovaj]

So, with the R8 LMS Ultra on Ascari, I was 1.2 (+/-) seconds faster with 0 camber versus the stock camber.

I added 0.5/0.3 F/R camber and the car felt better but the times were in the same ball park. That said, I'm fighting against the stock setup.

In any case, less than 1 is the number that I'm seeing for most cars. I have 3+ on my Sambabus

 

[Motor City Hami]

My 1.04 camber test:

I only tested one car, but it is a car that I have spent much time with. It is currently the best representation of what I can do with tuning. I built this for the FITT Muscle Car Tuner Challenge and used it as one of the cars to test out my suspension guide thoughts. I know this car on this track.

Ford GT40 Mark I '66 at Laguna Seca
Sport Hard Tires and 500PP
Full tune here https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/motor-city-tunes-gt6.291066/page-11#post-9265141

Camber 0/0 ran 1:34.651
Car felt great. No difference in handling from 1.03. I ran a few warm up laps then hit it with five hot laps. Slight oversteer down the hill at Laguna Seca, but no yellow tires. Lap time was actually 0.6 seconds faster than my fastest test time with the car to date.

Camber 1/1 ran 1:34.972
As good of a lap as the 0/0 time. No yellow tires, but more tire noise at entry and exit of the corner. The slight oversteer got a little more pronounced. I had to be precise to clip the apex in all corners.

Camber 2/2 ran 1:35.631
As good of a lap as the 0/0 time. Slight yellow outside front tire at corner entry. Had to brake slightly earlier, had to trail brake longer and had to give more wheel input to get down to the apex.

Camber 3/3 ran 136.847
I had a harder time getting consistent lap times. More wheel input needed to get to the apex. Turned both fronts yellow on a couple of occasions. Started to get loose in braking zones.

My conclusion after testing just one car. Nothing changed between 1.03 and 1.04.

 

[PsuPepperoni]

So, with the R8 LMS Ultra on Ascari, I was 1.2 (+/-) seconds faster with 0 camber versus the stock camber.

Are you doing one lap of Ascari for each setting?
I ask because it's relatively long and technical course, so your ~1% slower lap time could be effected by factors other than your camber. I usually test on short, simple tracks like Tsukuba, GT Arena, and Stowe.

However, if you are a ridiculously consistent driver and you know Ascari very well, then keep doing what you're doing.

 

[ADR_PILOFINO]

My 1.04 camber test:

I only tested one car, but it is a car that I have spent much time with. It is currently the best representation of what I can do with tuning. I built this for the FITT Muscle Car Tuner Challenge and used it as one of the cars to test out my suspension guide thoughts. I know this car on this track.

Ford GT40 Mark I '66 at Laguna Seca
Sport Hard Tires and 500PP
Full tune here https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/motor-city-tunes-gt6.291066/page-11#post-9265141

Camber 0/0 ran 1:34.651
Car felt great. No difference in handling from 1.03. I ran a few warm up laps then hit it with five hot laps. Slight oversteer down the hill at Laguna Seca, but no yellow tires. Lap time was actually 0.6 seconds faster than my fastest test time with the car to date.

Camber 1/1 ran 1:34.972
As good of a lap as the 0/0 time. No yellow tires, but more tire noise at entry and exit of the corner. The slight oversteer got a little more pronounced. I had to be precise to clip the apex in all corners.

Camber 2/2 ran 1:35.631
As good of a lap as the 0/0 time. Slight yellow outside front tire at corner entry. Had to brake slightly earlier, had to trail brake longer and had to give more wheel input to get down to the apex.

Camber 3/3 ran 136.847
I had a harder time getting consistent lap times. More wheel input needed to get to the apex. Turned both fronts yellow on a couple of occasions. Started to get loose in braking zones.

My conclusion after testing just one car. Nothing changed between 1.03 and 1.04.

have you tested the figures between 0 and 1.0 camber?

 

[ace004]

I just got done testing camber and it's still the same. Camber only reduces grip. I added it slowly to the front and got understeer. Then the back and I got oversteer. Then for giggles both wheels and added seconds on my times.

 

[Motor City Hami]

have you tested the figures between 0 and 1.0 camber?

No. I only had enough game time last night to do that one test.

 

[the_saint8]

I have a tendency to believe the unknown amount of caster is possibly playing into the camber mystery. Without any kind of suspension telemetry, gains in cornering speed may be lost in straight away speed. From my understanding of caster, less camber is needed than a vehicle with 0 caster.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Are you doing one lap of Ascari for each setting?
I ask because it's relatively long and technical course, so your ~1% slower lap time could be effected by factors other than your camber. I usually test on short, simple tracks like Tsukuba, GT Arena, and Stowe.

However, if you are a ridiculously consistent driver and you know Ascari very well, then keep doing what you're doing.

No, I do more than a few and it's easy to tell when the car is definitely faster when there is a setting change.

I haven't seen any benefit to camber angles larger than 1. They just make the car "nervous", so on race cars they feel more like what a race car should feel like even though it definitely slows it down. Hence why the stock camber angles are so bad.

I test at Ascari because of all the different corner profiles. You can feel (and with a ghost, you can see) where the camber benefits and diminishes the car's handling. It's not a catchall setting like some of the others.

For race cars, anything over 0.5 is overkill.

So, does it "work", where as prior to 1.04 it simply didn't? Yes. Does it work the way people expect it to? Obviously not. Does it work properly? Depends how many people have set up camber on a real car before. I haven't, so I can't say.

 

[Voodoovaj]

No. I only had enough game time last night to do that one test.

I think this is where you will see the difference. I'm guessing that 0.5/0.3 will be the max where you'll see benefits.

 

[Motor City Hami]

I think this is where you will see the difference. I'm guessing that 0.5/0.3 will be the max where you'll see benefits.

So your theory is that they fixed it, but only fixed it a little bit?

 

[donpost]

Voodoovaj is there a noticeable increase in cornering grip with 0.5 or is it very subtle?

EDIT to say I think that in real life people use more camber - but of course this isn't real life.

 

[Jack Napier]

Your test is flawwed you dont add equal camb front and rear run laps and post irrelevant results, bro i think you lead on like you spend time at a track racing but I suspect more spectating...

 

[Motor City Hami]

Your test is flawwed you dont add equal camb front and rear run laps and post irrelevant results, bro i think you lead on like you spend time at a track racing but I suspect more spectating...

That directed to me, Jack? Not sure I understand your point.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Voodoovaj is there a noticeable increase in cornering grip with 0.5 or is it very subtle?

EDIT to say I think that in real life people use more camber - but of course this isn't real life.

It's subtle. It's more like an increase in cornering stability than cornering grip. Also, I found that it was better to have less camber on the heavy end of the car.

I recommend it because every little bit helps, but it definitely isn't a must have for a setup.

I recall seeing a ton of camber on open wheel cars, but the suspension model in the game can't be as complex as a real suspension.

 

[the_saint8]

I recall seeing a ton of camber on open wheel cars, but the suspension model in the game can't be as complex as a real suspension.

Most open wheel type race cars are running extremely soft tire compounds. Something which is rarely mentioned in most posts. More conclusive results would include a vehicle run with and without camber and let's say with Sports Hard versus Racing Soft compounds.