Camber

[OdeFinn]

@FussyFez, camber is not useful setting at this point, but on some cases it can be used as advantage.
It's not working as it should be, and my theory stands behind that lack of tire flex, what is inevitable component to fully working camber tuning.
So partly agreeing "camber not working"-phrase, but not blaming camber itself.
How PD will solve it, I don't care as long they manage to include it somehow to their physic engine, I don't need "graphical" solution, and not even mind if they decide to make tire "dig in to asphalt" as a solution for it, maybe that current small dig in is their "few centimeter rubber cover" on bricks at this point, and if yes, then they had to make it thicker.

 

[FussyFez]

@FussyFez, camber is not useful setting at this point, but on some cases it can be used as advantage.
It's not working as it should be, and my theory stands behind that lack of tire flex, what is inevitable component to fully working camber tuning.
So partly agreeing "camber not working"-phrase, but not blaming camber itself.

We are in agreement, it appears the language barrier is causing you to misunderstand me slightly:tup:

 

[DolHaus]

I think I understand what @OdeFinn is saying, the suspension model is working correctly but the tyre is not deforming as it would in life leading to a reduced tyre footprint. Essentially the camber is lifting the outside edge of the tyre rather than increasing the footprint as it would with a real life tyre

 

[OdeFinn]

@DolHaus, wow, so short and easy to understand
You understood what I tried to say

 

[Johnnypenso]

@FussyFez, @eclipsee, GT5 probably was just counting camber as part of grip multiplier what consist grip on forward/backward and sideways calculated "physics engine" G-force counter.
GT6 probably is counting on new physics from "new tire model" and they have forget to count tire flex in it, and that for camber won't give combined values to grip. (urf, hard to get any sense this, trying to explain on language what is not my native one)

GT6 tires have value for grip, changed by temperature, all ways g-forces, suspensions moves, but tires have static formation and it counts them as they were bricks, touching ground only geometrically as brick, and if you put negative camber it cants those bricks and after it only corner of that brick touches to ground, and new suspension physics model counts that small corner part of tire for your "grip area" and uses it to calculate your overall grip. (back to that rubber covered brick, there might be some calculated rubber surface on those bricks, and physics engine can add that few centimeter rubber cover as "bending" rubber to increase grip area, but not enough to be even close to real bend of tire rubber)
(please understand what I'm trying to say)

What you say makes logical sense to a point. The weakness here is that GT5 also displayed tires as bricks and yet camber worked in GT5, so what we see visually doesn't always relate to what is happening with the physics. One would assume that an organization like PD would have simply used some form of grip multiplier for lateral and longitudinal grip with various camber settings and foregone the visual display on the PS3 like they did on GT5. It's possible they attempted this and couldn't get it to work right with the new physics model.

If it's the case that they tried and couldn't get it to work, that would mean they knew beforehand we would have this issue, so it would have been nice if they had said something instead of us having to find out for ourselves. If they didn't know or forgot about it (we'll never know of course) that would be some real egg on their face. If the fix were easy you'd think it would be done already so I'm going to go for the former option and assume they couldn't work it out and just didn't say anything to us.

 

[Zenmervolt]

@DolHaus, wow, so short and easy to understand
You understood what I tried to say

OK, so it looks as though we've been talking at cross-purposes. Sorry about that.

When you were saying that you thought camber "worked" you didn't mean that you thought that the camber settings accurately reflected the real world. Rather, you meant that you thought the suspension model was performing the correct geometry adjustments to the tires, but that the tires themselves were not modeled in such a way as to take advantage of that.

To my mind, that is, shall we say, a rather nit-picky position to take. And it still doesn't address why softer springs seem to help alleviate the issues with camber settings in GT6. But I sort of see where you're coming from now and I understand that we both agree that camber settings do something but the problem is that whatever they do does not mirror the real world.

That said, there's no empirical evidence for your position (that the tire model is wrong) over the alternative position (that the suspension model is wrong). The visual representation created by the graphics engine is not necessarily tied to the physics engine, so just because the graphics engine makes it look as though there's no tire flex being modeled that does not necessarily mean that the physics engine is failing to take that into account.

For an example of the disconnect between the physics model and the graphics model, one need only look at the myriad of in-race photos showing cars lifting their rear wheels under heavy braking. Though the graphical model shows the rear tires as physically off the ground, the physics model does not behave in a manner that would approximate the real world consequences of what the graphical model portrays, and, while the car does feel very "light" at the rear when that happens, it does not feel as though the wheels are completely off the ground.

For your "soft spring" theory to work, the car would have to hit the suspension's bump stops and then continue to roll even before the dynamic camber could help the car, let alone the static camber. It just doesn't jive for me given that your theory would require the graphics model to understate the car's pitch and roll behavior compared to the physics model, when all evidence points to it being the other way around. When one adds in the fact that the suspension model is known to be somewhat wonky in other areas, I'm more inclined to believe that the oddities are in the suspension model and not the tire model.

 

[OdeFinn]

@Zenmervolt, lower ride height bottoms sooner, and brick tires rubber cover bottoms out too and corner of bricks are left for contact.
If lifting car height a bit bottoming is coming later and cars body roll can be used to get help from cambers.
Also on braking when there is some ride height rear of body rises and it decrease static camber from rear and it increase rear wheels grip when they go closer to zero camber, until rear lifts of.

GT6's suspension moves are not limited by suspension "stoppers" what you can alter, other than ride height, lower height-> smaller suspension moves and higher ride height-> bigger suspension moves.
This along rubber covered bricks and your limit of working camber values are combined to ride height, damper extension stiffness, and ARB stiffness.
Camber values works in limit of that rubber cover what those bricks are coated.
Meaning at small values can be used successfully on camber, and those works pretty close to real world, that rubber cover thickness is limit how much will work.
Real usage of cambers runs out soon as rubber cover bottoms, so still GT6 is far away from real world.

 

[Mt. Lynx]

Reading theses latest posts made me think.
Maybe the issue is the way the settings we can alter are portrayed? The new suspension physics model may actually be too real for the simplified sliders we get in the game, hence all the problems with the "wonky" suspension settings. Consider also that we don't get some things, like caster and tyre pressure, wich have various degrees of effect on the suspension.

 

[OdeFinn]

This part from official Gran Turismo site gets me pissed off:

Tyre Model
Through the cooperation with Yokohama Rubber, a variety of tyres ranging from “Racing” to “Street” were analyzed. Detailed information and data not available to us until now have been integrated in the tyre model: the tyre structure, compound, load and changes in cornering force due to the slip angle have been captured, analysed and introduced in our new model. This made possible to create a new “tyre contact” feeling and a level of precision never reached before.

They might have the data, but they haven't implemented it to game, or they have some typos on implement code.

 

[rosckolove]

Ok so I haven't posted here since the new forum update because I hate it and I can't find anything and I haven't even played gt6 much. I think I may have purchased like 4 cars so far. However I just came across this thread and here is my question. I get that camber doesn't work properly. But does it have an effect on the cars handling at all? How so? For most grip should I just leave them both at 0.0?

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Zero camber = max grip, higher front/zero rear = understeer, higher rear/zero front = oversteer. Camber can be used to alter car balance when other tuning effort has been exhausted. Try run 3.0/3.0 or 4.0/4.0 and enjoy low grip car or 10/10 ( max camber ) just for fun.

 

[rosckolove]

Zero camber = max grip, higher front/zero rear = understeer, higher rear/zero front = oversteer. Camber can be used to alter car balance when other tuning effort has been exhausted. Try run 3.0/3.0 or 4.0/4.0 and enjoy low grip car or 10/10 ( max camber ) just for fun.

thanks Ridox. Another quick question.. Are hybrids a problem in this game or can I go about my business not being accused of cheating? Also I read the suspension settings aren't backwards anymore? Lower front high rear gives oversteer and high front low rear settings give understeer?

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

thanks Ridox. Another quick question.. Are hybrids a problem in this game or can I go about my business not being accused of cheating? Also I read the suspension settings aren't backwards anymore? Lower front high rear gives oversteer and high front low rear settings give understeer?

Don't think hybrids a problem online, the save file is double encrypted, only those with JB PS3 and extensive knowledge can hybrid cars and they are easy to cope with as we have more control on lobby settings and restriction ( HP + PP + weight ). I already mapped car data on replay files as replay is not protected so much like save file. I know if someone cheat on TT in GT6.

Suspension settings works fine IMO, not reversed, everything now affect each other, I can make both low rear high front car as well as low front high rear understeer or oversteer just by tuning damper, arb and toe while camber fixed at zero all around. Using camber will still override them, say you have high front low rear car that oversteer, simply add front camber and use zero camber rear ( not really good way as it reduces grip on one end ) or if wanted more, tweak damper, toe and ARB as well. Spring rate also plays a bigger role now, depending on driver style and preference as well the purpose of suspension tuning ( drag, grip or drift )

I often got to a point that changing even one click of value, whether that would be ARB or damper will affect car handling around corners. Check out my garage if you want to see how some of my replica and tunes handled. My TODA RACING FD2 Civic Type R '02 at 450PP can lap Tsukuba on comfort soft at 1:04.5xxx with no aids, a well tuned replica suspension goes a long way

TODA RACING FIGHTEX Honda Civic Type R '08 (FD2) Demo Car 275HP / 279PS 450PP - Comfort Soft to Sports Medium

 

[Johnnypenso]

thanks Ridox. Another quick question.. Are hybrids a problem in this game or can I go about my business not being accused of cheating? Also I read the suspension settings aren't backwards anymore? Lower front high rear gives oversteer and high front low rear settings give understeer?

Hybrids have popped up but there are more ways to screen lobbies and it's not much of an issue at this point. Front and rear ride heights appear to work but there has been some success had in TT's with a high front setup to induce oversteer/better turn in etc.

At this point, I'd stick with tuning as if everything works except camber, leave it at 0.0/0.0 and work from there. As far as cheating goes, you'll find there are a few cars that are heads above everything else at given PP's and if you aren't using them you'll have a hard time winning against a decent driver.

EDIT: Tree'd

 

[rosckolove]

I found both of your replies helpful. What is the deal with the ride height. Is that reversed?

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I won't say it's reversed, as you can still alter the balance with tweaking other parts of the suspension. Those TT with high front low rear are done with SRF, and most of the tune are tailored to work well with SRF and took advantage of it's grip increase when oversteered.

I would suggest to not depend/use ride height to alter car balance, a well sorted spring rate that works in concert with damper, ARB, camber and toe would give great result with same ride height value front/back. Also LSD now has immense influence on car handling, I used mostly higher initial, accel and brake value than most tuners here, as I try to replicate real life LSD, where some of my replica even have 2 way LSD and it works well for me, at least for my garage.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I found both of your replies helpful. What is the deal with the ride height. Is that reversed?

You'll find that lowering ride height too much adds some grip but might make a car more difficult to control, especially on bumpy tracks, in other words, it looks like it works as it should. You can't go too wrong keeping most cars around stock ride height or a little lower.

EDIT: Rido is too quick on the draw

 

[rosckolove]

Could you point me in the right direction for finding the LSD threads that fast guys are posting in?

 

[Johnnypenso]

Could you point me in the right direction for finding the LSD threads that fast guys are posting in?

Motor City Tunes Tuning Guide

Long post...LSD tuning towards the bottom. Rido is having some success with higher initial settings...you might want to look at that too.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Damper also seems to work like IRL, those numbers are not absolute value, they are relative to spring rate, feels like when you are tuning coilover damper settings on a real car. A very stiff spring can still utilize soft damper for bumpy roads and works good enough. Higher grip tires also can take advantage of stiff spring + damper on smoother surface track.

Could you point me in the right direction for finding the LSD threads that fast guys are posting in?

I think someone will point certain tuner with guide here. I don't use the guide, they don't work for me, most are not realistic and as I often make replicas, they are bad . I used torque based calculation and adapting real life LSD specs to accel and brake values ( taking into account number of plates, cam angle, max lock percentage and plate diameter ), I consulted with lots of my friends from other forum who tune their real sports cars about LSD setup, and some of them give feedback on LSD setup on my replicas, so far my method often hits home as to how my replica LSD reacts compared to real car it replicates.

I was surprised how aggressive some RL LSD are, ATS 2 way LSD is one of prime example, high initial torque, 100% locking, with big cam angle, large diameter + number of plates, and this is used on FWD track car

 

[eclipsee]

I found both of your replies helpful. What is the deal with the ride height. Is that reversed?

Yes, absolutely, no matter if you use SRF or not, higher front ride height than rear induces oversteer, lower front ride height than rear induces understeer, just the opposite as in real life.
It's no needed to tweak any other parameter to see that.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Spring rates ? damper ? Arb ? Those three alone can make oversteer car into understeer regardless of ride height used.

 

[eclipsee]

We're talking if ride height is reversed or not, we aren't talking about other suspension parameters.

Anyway, if you try to make an oversteer car into an understeer one tweaking only springs, dampers and ARB when its ride height is max front and min rear, you will need some really weird and extreme settings and likely you won't find what you're looking for.

This isn't the thread to talk about this anyway.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Having max front and minimum rear or vice versa also weird/extreme, it's just exploiting the system. Anyway, I never really have any issue with chronic understeer in GT6 that I need to use ride height to extreme values as I don't use any assist ( ABS makes the car tighter ). Which is why all my tunes are different/unique than the rest.

 

[eclipsee]

Yeah, I know you're unique, can we discuss this in another thread, please?
I'll test whatever you want, no aids and your replica tunes.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I'll never ask you to do that. There's nothing to prove.

 

[Zuel]

I've received one letter already. Waiting on the other before I post anything.

 

[Zuel]

As I stated before that I was going to wait until Yokohama Tires response to my letter to post anything. I really rather not wait any longer on their response to post due to I’m getting a little impatient, so I’ll just refer to my first response.

I wrote KW suspension requesting if an explanation of the model that was developed for GT6 can be given to the GT Planet community, I was contacted by Chad Gordon; Technical Advisor for KW. He wasn't able to give any solid pacific on the model or how it works though he did notion that the model is justified and if there are any concerns contact Polyphony Digital. This in turn prompted me to get in contact with an old friend of mine Germy to ask for his insight on the matter. Granted he doesn’t play GT6 but he has experience in building suspension systems. After a few hours of video call and showing him the menu and going through the numbers he believes that the model is correct.

Then we went into the sets that some are using and looked over the hot tuning threads to see what is being done, I wasn’t surprised by his reactions to some of the tunes that have been posted throughout the tuning forms. I’m not going to give any pacific tuner or tunes, though he stressed that the model is not fully understood and more than likely won’t be understood unless the tuning is looked at through a different manner. Though he did like what he saw in some tunes, though he said there is much to be improved on, which I agree on. We both agree that the wheel camber works flat and in degree, though the major factor in performance is car type, tire width, tire type and compound.

I'm not sure when I'll get a letter from Yokohama Tires but when I do I'll give my feed back on their response as well.

 

[Jbaffoh]

As I stated before that I was going to wait until Yokohama Tires response to my letter to post anything. I really rather not wait any longer on their response to post due to I’m getting a little impatient, so I’ll just refer to my first response.

I wrote KW suspension requesting if an explanation of the model that was developed for GT6 can be given to the GT Planet community, I was contacted by Chad Gordon; Technical Advisor for KW. He wasn't able to give any solid pacific on the model or how it works though he did notion that the model is justified and if there are any concerns contact Polyphony Digital. This in turn prompted me to get in contact with an old friend of mine Germy to ask for his insight on the matter. Granted he doesn’t play GT6 but he has experience in building suspension systems. After a few hours of video call and showing him the menu and going through the numbers he believes that the model is correct.

Then we went into the sets that some are using and looked over the hot tuning threads to see what is being done, I wasn’t surprised by his reactions to some of the tunes that have been posted throughout the tuning forms. I’m not going to give any pacific tuner or tunes, though he stressed that the model is not fully understood and more than likely won’t be understood unless the tuning is looked at through a different manner. Though he did like what he saw in some tunes, though he said there is much to be improved on, which I agree on. We both agree that the wheel camber works flat and in degree, though the major factor in performance is car type, tire width, tire type and compound.

I'm not sure when I'll get a letter from Yokohama Tires but when I do I'll give my feed back on their response as well.

I do not see any relevance in the opinions of people who do not play or tune in GT6. Real life is one thing, GT6 is another. So who cares about the opinions of real life suspension and tire experts who have never tried to apply their knowledge and expertise to this incomplete video game?

 

[Zuel]

I do not see any relevance in the opinions of people who do not play or tune in GT6. Real life is one thing, GT6 is another. So who cares about the opinions of real life suspension and tire experts who have never tried to apply their knowledge and expertise to this incomplete video game?

I would have to disagree with you @Jbaffoh, though everyone has their opinion.