Can Any one make car rounding 360 full circle

[shangoob]

Can Any one make car rounding 360 (full circle)?
in GT2 it was easy , but its very hard on GT4,why?
or it just need a special tuning?

 

[barryl85]

You mean do a donut?

Ok in my experience - i never actually managed it - partly because the most realistic driving simulator isnt that realistic - i took all the driving aids off and fiddled with the LSD then i was trying to execute some donuts - but never quite got there!

Maybe someone else could help you out on this one better than i can - because i dont know if it is actually possible!

 

[shangoob]

any way thanks for answering, i tried with aids on (understeer 20 oversteer 0 ASM 0) but I couldnt make a dount

 

[Aquendwato]

I've done it with the assistance of high speeds and grass/walls, but never from a standstill in the middle of the track

 

[Heath1]

lol the real fake driving sim. u cant even smoke her up without turning the aids off n even then u need some tuning. Ive done donuts with the aid of GRASS to help get me that bit of slip happening.

 

[sucahyo]

I think we should need:
- All aids off, we don't need engine fuel cut off by TCS or brake auto activated by stability controller.
- a lot of grip in front, minimum grip at rear. This is the hardest part since GT4 do not allow us to use R5/N1 tire, normally .

We can try to do it in an extreme way:
- stickier front tire, N3/N1.
- max spring rate front, min spring rate rear
- min camber front, max camber rear
- max damper front, min damper rear
- min stabilizer front, max stabilizer rear
- short gearing
- minimum downforce
- max balast set to all front
- max tourqe at the rear

 

[Scaff]

lol the real fake driving sim. u cant even smoke her up without turning the aids off n even then u need some tuning. Ive done donuts with the aid of GRASS to help get me that bit of slip happening.

I think we should need:
- All aids off, we don't need engine fuel cut off by TCS or brake auto activated by stability controller.
- a lot of grip in front, minimum grip at rear. This is the hardest part since GT4 do not allow us to use R5/N1 tire, normally .

We can try to do it in an extreme way:
- stickier front tire, N3/N1.
- max spring rate front, min spring rate rear
- min camber front, max camber rear
- max damper front, min damper rear
- min stabilizer front, max stabilizer rear
- short gearing
- minimum downforce
- max balast set to all front
- max tourqe at the rear

And even then its still not right. Simply put GT4 sucks at low speed physics, donuts and handbrake turns being almost impossible to do. A while ago I actually looked at all the main games in the GT series and how 'realistic' they were in a number of areas, given the topic of this thread it may be of interest ...

GT - A comparison across the series - click to view


Regards

Scaff

 

[Specialized]

The only time ive ever seen a car do donuts, in gt4, was in a video Boundary Layer posted up quite a while ago and he used the Falken Skyline to do it. I tried searching for the video but cant seem to find it, if memory serves me right the video is in the GT4 Drift forum somewhere. He did manage about 3 or 4 consecutive donuts.

Spec....

EDIT, i just found the video and it can be downloaded from the following link. This is the closest to a car doing proper donuts in gt4 that ive seen.

http://www.bgj.ca/GT4/BLvids/BL-GoodDonuts.xvid.avi

 

[shangoob]

I think we should need:
- All aids off, we don't need engine fuel cut off by TCS or brake auto activated by stability controller.
- a lot of grip in front, minimum grip at rear. This is the hardest part since GT4 do not allow us to use R5/N1 tire, normally .

We can try to do it in an extreme way:
- stickier front tire, N3/N1.
- max spring rate front, min spring rate rear
- min camber front, max camber rear
- max damper front, min damper rear
- min stabilizer front, max stabilizer rear
- short gearing
- minimum downforce
- max balast set to all front
- max tourqe at the rear

I will try these tuning and see what will happen?

 

[sucahyo]

I will try these tuning and see what will happen?

I will love to hear the result , try to rev the rpm high before launch to make the wheel slip more.

 

[shangoob]

its not a dount i tried

 

[TuneRVisioN]

Only previous GT's let's you do donuts, it is nearly impossible in GT4.

 

[Scaff]

Only previous GT's let's you do donuts, it is nearly impossible in GT4.

The original GT was not to bad in terms of donuts, GT2 was much the same (apart from some of the 4wd cars that simply rotate around a central point - very silly looking). It started to go downhill with GT3, donuts started to cause problems with the front tyres loosing grip and the car pushing forward and wide. GT4 is just plain wrong.

Take a look at one of my previous post in which I looked at just this across the whole series (and with each drivetrain).

Regards

Scaff

BTW - Just a quick hint, your sig is an AUP violation, getting around the swear filter is not permitted, a quick edit of that would be very advisable.

 

[sucahyo]

its not a dount i tried

I see. Maybe we can only do that if we can mix racing tire and normal tire, that is, use R5 at front and N1 at rear.

 

[TuneRVisioN]

I see. Maybe we can only do that if we can mix racing tire and normal tire, that is, use R5 at front and N1 at rear.

Yeah, like you was able to do in GT3, you can put Racing SS tires front and simulation tires rear...

Sorry about the AUP violation... It's fixed now. DON'T DESTROY ME PLEASE!!!

 

[sucahyo]

I think I have done some sort of donut with RX-7. I don't know why you fail shangoob, all I need is plenty of power and tire stagger.

setting:
N3/N1 tire
power upgrade to ~480hp
spring rate : all soft
ride height : all high
damper bound : 10/1
damper rebound : 10/1
camber : 0/0
toe : 0/0
stabilizer : 1/7

all aids off
no balast
no weight modification

I don't know if this can be called proper donut though .


video:
http://d.turboupload.com/d/1761333/RX-7_donut_small.mpg.html

Because I can't use throttle control and delicate steering I use cheap trick to make a circle, e-brake when the car almost spinning .

 

[Scaff]

I don't know if this can be called proper donut though .

Nope, that's called driving around in a small circle, certainly not a do-nut (sorry).

This is how Do-nuts (and handbrake turns) should be possible in GT, unfortunately for PD, this happens to be Enthusia. Bone stock car, no messing with the set-up, tyres, etc. Try recreating it in GT4 and the low-speed physics issue become very, very clear.




Regards

Scaff

 

[sucahyo]

Nope, that's called driving around in a small circle, certainly not a do-nut (sorry).

I don't see the difference, please look at the end of my video where I don't press e-brake, the car spin. I think I just don't have the skill to do a proper donut. GT4 car it self is capable. If we can feather the throttle and do correct steering, I think donut is possible.

This is how Do-nuts (and handbrake turns) should be possible in GT, unfortunately for PD, this happens to be Enthusia. Bone stock car, no messing with the set-up, tyres, etc. Try recreating it in GT4 and the low-speed physics issue become very, very clear.

Question, what tire a bone stock car use in Enthusia?

The ridicilous amount of hp needed seems too much I think I will test it again with stock car, and N1/N1 tire, or S1/S1 or maybe R1/R1. Can enthusia car doing donut with racing/slick tire?

 

[Scaff]

I don't see the difference, please look at the end of my video where I don't press e-brake, the car spin. I think I just don't have the skill to do a proper donut. GT4 car it self is capable. If we can feather the throttle and do correct steering, I think donut is possible.

Sorry but the difference is huge, the GT4 clip shows an RX-7 driving around in small circles before managing one quite spin at the end. Its certainly not a do-nut. The S15 in the Enthusia clip (which is both heavier and less powerful that an RX-7) manages 4 full 360 degree donuts from a standing start.

Look at the Enthusia clip carefully and you will see that the car is rotating around the right hand front tyre, exactly as it should for a clockwise set of donuts. Simply put GT4 does not allow you to perform do-nuts in any commonly known manner at all. The skill level involved is not exactly great, from a standing start you simply set the revs with the footbrake on (I used the clutch in Enthusia) and apply right lock, dump the clutch or brake and the rear tyres slipping (while the fronts grip) will rotate the car around the front. Getting one started is not too difficult at all, keeping them going requires a descent degree of throttle control.

Take a look at these...







...and honestly tell me that GT4 lets you do any of this in a remotely realistic manner?

Question, what tire a bone stock car use in Enthusia?

The closest GT4 tyre would be an N2, Enthusia does not allow tyre stagger either so I could not have used it even if I wanted to (not that I needed to anyway).

The ridicilous amount of hp needed seems too much I think I will test it again with stock car, and N1/N1 tire, or S1/S1 or maybe R1/R1. Can enthusia car doing donut with racing/slick tire?

That's the thing, the S15 I used does not have a daft amount of power, it was totally stock.

Yes Enthusia will allow you to do do-nuts and handbrake turns with racing tyres (although Enthusia does not strictly call them this due to its weird levelling up system), you will however require more power in a situation like that to overcome the stickier rubber. However lets be honest do-nuts do not require a huge amount of power anyway, as the multiplying effect that gearing has on torque means that even in lower powered cars, low gears generate more than enough torque. As an example an S15 (NZ spec was the easiest to find on the web) produces around 200 ft lbs of torque at the engine, however with a first gear ratio of 3.626 and a final drive of 3.692, it produces around 2,677 ft lbs at the rear axle. Yes this will drop slightly due to gearing losses at the rear wheels, but not by a huge amount, simply put power is not the problem in GT4, the low speed physics model is.


Regards

Scaff

 

[sucahyo]

Look at the Enthusia clip carefully and you will see that the car is rotating around the right hand front tyre, exactly as it should for a clockwise set of donuts.

Thanks, I already see the video. Do donut suppose to be easy? since the video show how profesional do it.

Simply put GT4 does not allow you to perform do-nuts in any commonly known manner at all. The skill level involved is not exactly great, from a standing start you simply set the revs with the footbrake on (I used the clutch in Enthusia) and apply right lock, dump the clutch or brake and the rear tyres slipping (while the fronts grip) will rotate the car around the front. Getting one started is not too difficult at all, keeping them going requires a descent degree of throttle control.

I think GT4 weakness is: while slipping, it still grip too much. So in order to do donut in Gt4, we need a lot of power.

...and honestly tell me that GT4 lets you do any of this in a remotely realistic manner?

I think I will do this in LFS and GPL annd see what happen.

The closest GT4 tyre would be an N2, Enthusia does not allow tyre stagger either so I could not have used it even if I wanted to (not that I needed to anyway).

Ok thanks.

That's the thing, the S15 I used does not have a daft amount of power, it was totally stock.

I already test it with stock RX-7 with N1, N2, N3, R1 and R5. I also try it with S15 and S2000.

My result:
Even when the tire spin very fast, the tire still has too much grip. Stickier tire has even more. The slipping tire forward force still beat the front tire grip.

S2000 is a bit easier though. Using N1/N1 stock S2000 can pivoting it's front tire more so than S15 or RX-7. I am sure with a bit of power and some suspension setting, we can do some sort of donut with S2000.



I have some video of it, but I think I can only post it next week.

So my answer to this thread topic is, yes we can do 360 on GT4. Although not on stock car.

Yes Enthusia will allow you to do do-nuts and handbrake turns with racing tyres (although Enthusia does not strictly call them this due to its weird levelling up system), you will however require more power in a situation like that to overcome the stickier rubber. However lets be honest do-nuts do not require a huge amount of power anyway, as the multiplying effect that gearing has on torque means that even in lower powered cars, low gears generate more than enough torque. As an example an S15 (NZ spec was the easiest to find on the web) produces around 200 ft lbs of torque at the engine, however with a first gear ratio of 3.626 and a final drive of 3.692, it produces around 2,677 ft lbs at the rear axle. Yes this will drop slightly due to gearing losses at the rear wheels, but not by a huge amount, simply put power is not the problem in GT4, the low speed physics model is.

Thanks for the info 👍 . Agree. So, in order to overcome those low speed physics problem, we need power.

 

[shangoob]

can I say this viper make Do-nuts OR It Just Do-not (360)
watch this video

 

[Rick01]

it's so easy, use the Opel Vectra 3.2 and give it max power, u can do donuts in 1st and 2nd gear, just choose the direction, and pedal down, u will go donutting, u can even do 8's

 

[sucahyo]

Since stock S2000 with N1 tire can almost do it, other powerfull car should be able to do it as well.

 

[Scaff]

it's so easy, use the Opel Vectra 3.2 and give it max power, u can do donuts in 1st and 2nd gear, just choose the direction, and pedal down, u will go donutting, u can even do 8's

I would just love to see some video footage of a front-wheel drive car (as the vectra is) doing do-nuts, that would be a true testament to the accuracy of GT4's low speed physics .

Of the videos posted so far (and the hundreds of hours I've spent in GT4) I've yet to see a true do-nut or handbrake turn done. The occasional quick 360 spin after driving around in circles is not a do-nut. If the physics at low speed were accurate then applying full lock, holding the car on the brakes and then letting them go with full revs built would be all that's needed to do a do-nut.

Same with a hand-brake turn, we should be able to get a car up to 30mph+, pull on the handbrake and yank the steering over and a 180 degree handbrake turn should be more than possible.

GT4 will not allow you to do either of these things, and no messing about with tyre stagger, etc will overcome the rather simple fact that at lower speed GT4 does not allow the tyres sufficient lateral grip when lock is applied. The fronts wash wide almost instantly and you end up driving ini circles, not ding do-nuts; or simply washing wide rather than doing a handbrake turn.

Suchayo, I know that you have LFS, so take a RWD car in that and give it a go (even teh XR GT is more thyan enough), you will find do-nuts and handbrake turns rather easy to pull off with a little practice (Enthusia is the same). Try recreating my Ethusia video in LFS, you should have little, if any, problem doing so. Then go and try doing the same in GT4, hopefully the difference should then be quite obvious.

Firstly we should not have to mess around with tyre stagger and settings to be able to do do-nuts, nor should we need to up the power to stupid levels. GT4 gets many things right (for example its high speed physics are far more accurate that Enthusia's), but this area is not one of them.

Regards

Scaff


BTW - @Rick01

When you joined GT Planet you agreed to follow the AUP, please re-read this part...

No slang words that promote laziness, ie; "r", "u", "plz", etc. will be tolerated. Decent grammar is expected, including proper usage of capital letters. Repeated violations will be grounds for suspension and/or permanent removal from the forums.

Source - https://www.gtplanet.net/aup

...thanks.

 

[shangoob]

Scaff ,like Rick01 said ,it's so easy to make a donuts,that true and if he a NEW MEMBER it doesn't mean he's not good enough on GT4 , maybe you didn't test an FF car

I suggest you to try CELICA TRIAL
and make some setting:
TYRES: RSS(R5) in the front ,RSH(R1) in the back
SUSPINSION: camber,rear:5.0
AIDS: Oversteer:0
Undrsteer:2
TSC:1
Limited Slip Full custm: 60,20,40
weight: front/rear ballance:50

 

[Scaff]

Scaff ,like Rick01 said ,it's so easy to make a donuts,that true and if he a NEW MEMBER it doesn't mean he's not good enough on GT4 , maybe you didn't test an FF car

I don't actually believe I passed comment on Rick01's ability with GT4 at all, in fact I didn't pass comment on his ability on anything. What I did state quite strongly is that if he can get a front wheel drive car to do do-nuts (in a forward gear) then GT4's low speed physics are even more wonky than most people are aware of.

As for not testing FWD cars, a couple of points. First FWD cars are not supposed to be able to do do-nuts in forward gears. Secondly did you actually follow the link I posted earlier in this thread? The one in which I tested each major drive-train type across the whole GT series, looking at do-nuts and handbrakes amongst other things. So yes I have tested FWD cars, hell I've probably done as much, if not more set-up, suspension, braking and physics testing (with real world comparisons) on GT4 that just about anyone here at GT Planet.

I suggest you to try CELICA TRIAL
and make some setting:
TYRES: RSS(R5) in the front ,RSH(R1) in the back
SUSPINSION: camber,rear:5.0
AIDS: Oversteer:0
Undrsteer:2
TSC:1
Limited Slip Full custm: 60,20,40
weight: front/rear ballance:50

To repeat my point of previous posts, if GT4's low speed physics were up to the job, we should not have to play around with the settings. Have you actualy ever done a handbrake turn in a real car, or do-nuts, etc? Because it most certainly does not require a lot of messing around with set-up, and that is my entire point.

Not to mention the rather obvious point that, as with the Vectra, the Trial Celica is a FWD car. If GT4 is letting us do-nut it in forward gears, then its low speed physics are not correct.

Let me ask you a rather direct question, do you believe that GT4's low speed physics are an accurate representation of what should happen?

Finally I am still yet to see a video that actually shows a car in GT4 do-nut'ing and pulling handbrake turns as they should be. I've posted up a video of both being done in a stock S15 (moderately powerful RWD), if its so easy to do in GT4 then why has no one re-created that video in GT4?


Regard

Scaff

 

[sukerkin]

Well said, Scaff.

Just a curiousity-type question, off-topic and no insult intended (as I'm obviously talking about Shangoob here) but how does a new member with very few posts under his belt get to be a Guides Editor?

Not blowing my own trumpet but I've been a member of GTP for quite a few years (and know a number of the Mods very well) and have, I like to think, posted up a fair amount of useful tuning/game information but I've never been asked to perform said function.

Is it the case that you ask and it shall be given? .

 

[TuneRVisioN]

I can almost do a 360 in a Nissan EXA fully modded with the TCS at 1, it oversteers on extremely tight turns, but I don't get it, it's tougher to do in a FR than a FF. I hate so many things about this game, but I can't stop playing it. Try a car with SS tires front and N1 tires rear. I'm sure it is more possible in Reverse with a FF. Also I did a handbrake 180, but it was a very slow 180. It was done in my Hiroto Skyline JGTC.

 

[BobK]

I used to be able to do bootleg (handbrake) turns and if not a true donut at least something reasonably close in my bone stock '70 Beetle. The point being made here is that GT4's low speed physics just plain do not reflect reality.

Well said, Scaff.

Just a curiousity-type question, off-topic and no insult intended (as I'm obviously talking about Shangoob here) but how does a new member with very few posts under his belt get to be a Guides Editor?

Not blowing my own trumpet but I've been a member of GTP for quite a few years (and know a number of the Mods very well) and have, I like to think, posted up a fair amount of useful tuning/game information but I've never been asked to perform said function.

Is it the case that you ask and it shall be given? .

Yes, ask here and ye shall receive!

 

[Wolfe]

No offense to anyone on the "GT4 can do donuts" side, but the inability to do them is as clear as day, and as Scaff said, GT4's low-speed physics in general are simply daft.

I don't know if this would be considered expanding the topic or simply going off-topic, but it is my belief that GT4's shortcomings in its low-speed physics model are merely indicative of more relevant and detrimental flaws in the handling qualities of cars at any speed.

The biggest problem (IMO) appears to be a flaw in the modelling of inertia, which seems to manifest itself in the donut situation by not allowing the tail of the car to spin around as it should, and also seems to appear in higher-speed situations by giving the tail of the car too little momentum, causing lift-off and braking oversteer to be almost nonexistant, and giving the front tires too much control in any oversteer situation. This leads to a perceived prevalence of understeer, undermine's the car's ability to rotate, and causes the player to over-correct an oversteer situation far too easily.

Another aspect of the donut flaw that is not isolated to that situation is the behavior of the car and its tires under wheelspin. The amount of forward propulsion seems too low, and outside factors (including sloped surfaces, bumps, grass/dirt under one tire and not the other, etc.) have little to no effect. Not even steering input fazes the car's desire to simply travel in a perfectly straight line, tires squealing and smoking. It's a flaw that is merely puzzling when you're trying to do a donut, but seriously disenchanting when driving a 800hp RWD car that should be deadly at full throttle.

I've covered much of this in video format, so I'll let the game speak for itself. The beginning of the video is quite relevant to this thread anyway: