Car Wash
- Thread starter TVC
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Jeez... some people make new threads, then are told to use the search function. When they do, they get blasted for bumping an old thread.
Anyway... yeah, I'd love to see the car wash return. I love the idea of dirt remaining on the car until you get it washed. Say you've just completed Le Mans... you went into the race in a gleaming new car, but after the race, it's covered in grime, oil, road dust, scrapes and knocks... I love the idea of that. Let's hope it's in GT5 👍
- 842
- sher_da_putt
The car wash helped the aerodynamics if im right, i only found that out a month ago, and I found out about engine ware a few days ago, after owning GT4 since day one!!!! I have high hope for the wheel shop to come back as well as car wash, and if rims makes a comeback that livery shouldnt be far off..
Pako
Staff Emeritus
- 16,455
- NW Montana
- GTP-Pako
- GTP Pako
Jeez... some people make new threads, then are told to use the search function. When they do, they get blasted for bumping an old thread.
You were correct in not starting a new thread when one already existed. 👍
Is this post in the wrong thead perhaps?
I like the car wash, There's something special about washing your car after a long hard day of racing.
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- 24,344
- Midlantic Area
- GTP_Duke
Ummm... because he wanted to continue the discussion rather than repeating the same thing over and over again? 👍
- 818
Really? I think that'd get on my nerves
Unless the dirt is massive chunks in the critical regions of an aerofoil, it'd be more likely to HELP aerodynamics than hinder it. You should have the option of spray a fine mist of grit over the car to reduce drag and potentially increase downforce... screw cleaning it 
- 1,702
- balang_479
it usually shines them up. I had a black supra which looked like matte black, gave it a wash and it was shiny clean...
- 35,580
- Addison,Texas
- GTP_RACECAR
Given thats its been in GT since the very first game, there's plenty of reason to assume it'll be in GT5. Of course now that your cars actually get dirty(at least according to the trailer), It'll most likely be more effective this time around.
- 831
- ANFD
While the concept of "ownership" is a nice touch to what was determined to be "the real driving simulator", there are a few of us that have wished GT to be more of a true racing game. I would gladly give up car washes and oil changes and chassis refurbishing for pit stop options that allow me to create a race strategy and things that were missing such as pace cars to further implement true race craft. Having car control in pit lane with speed limitations and accessing pit boxes cleanly on entry and exit would do more for the game than watching a car spin around making a silly noise 
I realize that Kaz started the francise with the idea of being a "car collector" such as he is, but I also see him evolving the game into more of a racing simulator especially with their involvement with the Japanese racing series and the Nurburgring events ..... I can only hope
I realize that Kaz started the francise with the idea of being a "car collector" such as he is, but I also see him evolving the game into more of a racing simulator especially with their involvement with the Japanese racing series and the Nurburgring events ..... I can only hope
- 192
- pegz_1985
- X-BOX SUCKS
Car wash in GT5 is a must have since the rally subaru in the E3 trailer was pretty dirty. Just imagine rain falling on a rally track and mud every where the car wash will have to be in to get you all cleaned up for the next event unless you want to race your car dirty.
- 8,725
Really? I think that'd get on my nerves
Eh? I don't follow the logic there at all. The smoother the surface (=shiny!) the lower the drag for a given shape. But yeah, I seriously doubt that dirt accumulated on a closed circuit would reduce aero by ten whole percent, that's insane! Of course, Amar may well have just plucked that figure from thin air for the purpose of illustrating his point!
Speaking of lost and / or forgotten features: in addition to the Racing Modification (we at least need an equivalent with the "new" (?) parts / modding system in GT5) how about the old adjustable turbos from GT1? It was great to tweak the power / torque balance of the engine with that slider - never understood why it disappeared, doubly so for why it never reappeared for A-Spec points tweaking (intake restrictors for NA too?) That and the gear-ratio screen in the original still hasn't been matched! But, I digress in my reminiscense.
As for all that pit-foolery, I think the oil changes and car washes are as much a part of the racing - you'd never send a dirty car with month-old fluids out on the track at even intermediate levels of competition. But all the stuff that ANFD mentioned would be great, in addition to the ownership malarkey. A "service history" for each car would help keep track of what has been done, though. Micro-managing a collection of 50 or so racers could get cumbersome!
- 818
Actually no
There's a few different types of drag. One is called skin friction drag, and you are correct in saying dirt (a rough surface) would increase skin friction drag. This is drag is usually small at lower speeds, but on aircraft which travel much faster than cars, this drag is pretty massive, which is why aircraft need to be smooth.Another type of drag is pressure drag. This is caused by flow separating off a surface, creating a low pressure region behind the object. This is what you do when you're drafting, you slip into the low pressure region behind a car, that low pressure is caused by separation of the flow off the car infront. This drag is usually REDUCED by a rough surface, as a rough surface will delay separation because the flow likes to stick to the rough surface more than a smooth shiny surface.
There's also induced drag, which is created by wings (you can't produce downforce without producing drag, hence why it's "induced"). When you increase your downforce, you lose top speed, that's because when you increased your downforce you also increased your induced drag.
For most cars, the dominant drag is the 2nd one, pressure drag, so a rough surface usually wouldn't increase drag, it'd probably decrease it. The only cars it might reduce drag on are things like open wheelers with large wings and diffusers, because their dominant drag tends to be induced drag.
Aircraft are usually designed such that pressure drag is small as possible, so a rough surface wont help them much, but high speeds (400+kmh) make skin friction drag worse, which makes a rough surface bad. Most cars are the opposite
- 2,044
- GTP_DaddyVDUB
- R U Kidding
To me the car wash in GT4 was really silly,and should be left out of future games. Mainly because of how silly it looked spinning around. If they wish to include things such as engine rebuilds that would be fine,just dont show the car spinning around like some magic trick.
- 8,725
For most cars, the dominant drag is the 2nd one, pressure drag, so a rough surface usually wouldn't increase drag, it'd probably decrease it. The only cars it might reduce drag on are things like open wheelers with large wings and diffusers, because their dominant drag tends to be induced drag.
Aircraft are usually designed such that pressure drag is small as possible, so a rough surface wont help them much, but high speeds (400+kmh) make skin friction drag worse, which makes a rough surface bad. Most cars are the opposite
Thanks, I wasn't fully aware of the relative significance of the different types, as you put it. Useful to know! 👍
Am I right in thinking that induced drag, for the case of aerodynamic parts on racing cars, is a combination of skin / wall drag and "separation" drag, with a distinct ratio between the two?
The whole thing sounds analagous to your standard pressure-drop-along-a-pipe problem, where the walls contribute some friction losses, but it is the fittings (valves, bends, junctions etc.) which really do the "damage", as it were. I should probably have thought about it a bit more!
Back (more) on topic: I don't mind the car wash system, I just wish that you didn't have to sit there and watch it spin around like that; likewise for the oil change - give us the option to skip it!
- 818
Thanks, I wasn't fully aware of the relative significance of the different types, as you put it. Useful to know! 👍
Am I right in thinking that induced drag, for the case of aerodynamic parts on racing cars, is a combination of skin / wall drag and "separation" drag, with a distinct ratio between the two?
The whole thing sounds analagous to your standard pressure-drop-along-a-pipe problem, where the walls contribute some friction losses, but it is the fittings (valves, bends, junctions etc.) which really do the "damage", as it were. I should probably have thought about it a bit more!
The induced drag, more specifically, comes from the wings producing lift (or downforce). To produce downforce, you need low pressure on the bottom of the wing and high pressure on the top. At the wing tips, this means the flow wants to curl around the tips from the high pressure region to the low pressure region below the wing. This creates a vortex, and that vortex creates drag. That's why car wings have endplates and aircraft wings have winglets, they reduce the strength of these vorticies and so reduce drag (but you can never completely eliminate it). Check out this pic (same thing happens on car wings, sometimes you can see it in F1 when the car drives through smoke or misty rain):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Airplane_vortex_edit.jpg
With pipes, the reason its analagous is because it is exactly drag. Just hydrodynamic drag instead of aerodynamic drag
Skin friction drag is what causes the pressure loss along a pipe, and a mixture of pressure and skin friction is what causes losses at bends/valves/junctions, because you get separation around any sharp objects (separation = pressure drag). But you dont get induced drag in pipes, because its specifically the drag caused by the vorticies produced by a lift/downforce generating device.If you could eliminate induced drag, you could run as much downforce as you like and it wont reduce your top speed, as this is the thing that hurts your top speed when you increase downforce. Of course if you increased the angle of your wings so much that they stall, then that creates pressure drag due to the stall essentially meaning flow is separating off the wing.
- 8,725
All very interesting, thanks. So it's the lateral vortices that cause the unique drag on wings etc. and (mainly) longitudinal vortices due to separation that cause "pressure" drag on all solid bodies in a flowing fluid.
It seems, then, that "induced" drag is merely a definition of drag caused by some object that is optional but potentially useful, as opposed to necessary (car body, valve in a pipe.) The analogue to induced drag for pipe-flow (any fluid) is then something like an orifice plate, where the drag / pressure drop is deliberately induced in order to gauge, for example, the flow velocity in the pipe.
That is probably the best pic I've seen of that type of vortex from an aircraft; it's huuuge! I love it when you can see the F1 cars' wings punch the water vapour out of the air; plenty of this at the wet race in Malaysia earlier this year.
Sadly, I doubt somewhat that the aero implementation in GT5 will mirror any of this in reality; somebody in another thread was wishing for a wind tunnel in the game!!
The PS3 is good, but I don't see it coping too well with that!
It seems, then, that "induced" drag is merely a definition of drag caused by some object that is optional but potentially useful, as opposed to necessary (car body, valve in a pipe.) The analogue to induced drag for pipe-flow (any fluid) is then something like an orifice plate, where the drag / pressure drop is deliberately induced in order to gauge, for example, the flow velocity in the pipe.
That is probably the best pic I've seen of that type of vortex from an aircraft; it's huuuge! I love it when you can see the F1 cars' wings punch the water vapour out of the air; plenty of this at the wet race in Malaysia earlier this year.
Sadly, I doubt somewhat that the aero implementation in GT5 will mirror any of this in reality; somebody in another thread was wishing for a wind tunnel in the game!!
The PS3 is good, but I don't see it coping too well with that!
CAMAROBOY69
Premium
- 18,567
- Michigan
- CAMAROBOY69
The first thing everyone should do when buying a brand new car is to wash it. This instantly gave each car a HP boost. Almost felt like cheating but hey every little big of hp helps. 
I am also surprised how many people did not know this. Try it, it works.
OOps!! I got this confused with the oil change. Sorry.... Oil change gives the car HP boost. Car wash increases aero. I am sure these 2 features will be in GT5.
Also yes the more you drive the more "dull" the paint job will look. Eventually if you drive long enogh there will be almost no shine at all in the paint job.
I am also surprised how many people did not know this. Try it, it works.
OOps!! I got this confused with the oil change. Sorry.... Oil change gives the car HP boost. Car wash increases aero. I am sure these 2 features will be in GT5.
Also yes the more you drive the more "dull" the paint job will look. Eventually if you drive long enogh there will be almost no shine at all in the paint job.
- 1,419
there must be a carwash
see how dirty that WRC Subaru got?
and its not like 20 laps on any circuit wouldnt give u some durt
maybe make the animation better, its not like cars just SPIN frantically and become magically clean.
i just hope they bring back the rims, better ones tho,
they could keep their spoiler wings :S
see how dirty that WRC Subaru got?
and its not like 20 laps on any circuit wouldnt give u some durt
maybe make the animation better, its not like cars just SPIN frantically and become magically clean.
i just hope they bring back the rims, better ones tho,
they could keep their spoiler wings :S
Actually no
Another type of drag is pressure drag. This is caused by flow separating off a surface, creating a low pressure region behind the object. This is what you do when you're drafting, you slip into the low pressure region behind a car, that low pressure is caused by separation of the flow off the car infront. This drag is usually REDUCED by a rough surface, as a rough surface will delay separation because the flow likes to stick to the rough surface more than a smooth shiny surface.
There's also induced drag, which is created by wings (you can't produce downforce without producing drag, hence why it's "induced"). When you increase your downforce, you lose top speed, that's because when you increased your downforce you also increased your induced drag.
For most cars, the dominant drag is the 2nd one, pressure drag, so a rough surface usually wouldn't increase drag, it'd probably decrease it. The only cars it might reduce drag on are things like open wheelers with large wings and diffusers, because their dominant drag tends to be induced drag.
Aircraft are usually designed such that pressure drag is small as possible, so a rough surface wont help them much, but high speeds (400+kmh) make skin friction drag worse, which makes a rough surface bad. Most cars are the opposite
you can see this principle at work on a golf ball a smooth golf ball wont go as far as s dimpled (rough) one...
as for the car wash i loved it and i was one of the people who took ownership of the car.. after a few races in the same car i would become attached to it.. for insance i would never sell my first car i baught on the game as it was special it was the car is started with.. so after races i would "treat" the car to a service and a wash.. just as i do with my car in real life call be crazy but i like it and dont care if it doesnt do anything:tup:
- 818
All very interesting, thanks. So it's the lateral vortices that cause the unique drag on wings etc. and (mainly) longitudinal vortices due to separation that cause "pressure" drag on all solid bodies in a flowing fluid.
It seems, then, that "induced" drag is merely a definition of drag caused by some object that is optional but potentially useful, as opposed to necessary (car body, valve in a pipe.) The analogue to induced drag for pipe-flow (any fluid) is then something like an orifice plate, where the drag / pressure drop is deliberately induced in order to gauge, for example, the flow velocity in the pipe.
That is probably the best pic I've seen of that type of vortex from an aircraft; it's huuuge! I love it when you can see the F1 cars' wings punch the water vapour out of the air; plenty of this at the wet race in Malaysia earlier this year.
Sadly, I doubt somewhat that the aero implementation in GT5 will mirror any of this in reality; somebody in another thread was wishing for a wind tunnel in the game!!
The PS3 is good, but I don't see it coping too well with that!
I suppose you could use an orifice plate as an analogy to induced drag, but I wouldn't because of the fact the drag on an orifice plate IS actually pressure drag (as in, that's what it actually is, not simply an analogy
). Another word for pressure drag is "form drag", and that's probably a more convenient term, because its drag caused by the shape of an object (after all, if you wanna get technical, all drag is "pressure", so it gets confusing).Induced drag is called induced drag because it's induced by the lift. If you want lift, you get drag because of vorticies. Form drag is because of shape, and skin friction drag is, well, coz of skin friction
I guess its just terminology, the induced is SPECIFICALLY the drag created by lift/downforce on wings, and form is specifically the drag created by flow separating off an object due to its shape. But its useful to separate the two, because their behaviour is quite different and you can predict what will happen when you do certain things (such as adding endplates reduces induced drag, so you only do it to vehicles that have high induced drag, and making the surface rough reduces form drag, so you dont do it on aircraft which have very little form drag, but on a race car or a golf ball, go for it!).You seem to know a bit about pipe flows though
I didn't know what an orifice plate was until I started studying fluid dynamics. I've had the opportunity to use a large wind tunnel, capable of being used for a family car (you could fit a small truck in the test section, but the results wouldn't be accurate, a regular car would be fine though). Its pretty cool, but also pretty boring when sitting in there for 3 days solid doing testing, just pressing buttons to speed the tunnel up, slow it down, and save the date
Its fun standing in the wind tunnel when its running at 80kmh though It'd be pretty cool to be able to modify your car in GT5 with "tunnel testing". Pop a certain wing on, see what it does, pop some fins on in certain places, see how it reacts. It'd be too much of an investment of time for PD though, it'd take ages to actually sort of what does what in reality. We can dream though
EDIT: Oh, and if you think that vortex is big, the ones produced by passenger planes taking off and landing are massive and can extend several miles behind the plane, thats one reason why they can't land 2 large planes on 1 runway without a couple of minutes gap between them, the vortex from the first plane is still floating around and would disturb the 2nd one.
- 1,012
- Portugal
- ULTRA-FLOW
- 159
- Gamersnet
I think they will add the car washes in the game again. I hope cars get dirty after rally or rainy races.
- 818
I'd love it if cars get dirty and need washing, but I'd hate it if it adversly affected the aero, coz I'd rather just have a garage full of grubby cars, it'd look cool.
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