Cars - Are they detailed enough already?

[Zer0]

edit: The interiors need tons of love. I play in using that view and I think Forza 4 interiors look better. GT6 interiors need a big upgrade. I want to see texture on the leather and other fine details on dashes and steering wheels. I don't feel like it's there all the way in either GT5 or Forza4.

I disagree but this is not a Forza vs GT comparisson, if you want to compare interiors or view examples without going off topic this is the thread:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7786731#post7786731

With a better hardware better filtering will occur and crisper details will bring to the GT6 interiors a new shine, also better lighting will enhace a lot the overall look. Modelling-wise GT5 interiors are next gen proof with just minor adjustments, some textures and maybe defining some new materials. It's probably that Polyhony has all the cars originally modeled in a perfect mathematical model and if needed can be upscaled with the help of just one click.

This is the actual GT5 level, in the worst scenario and without changes it will look even better in GT6.

Click for detail.

 

[Samus]

That's a bullshot and you know it.

 

[YayoiGT2]

Yes, but at the same time, no.

While the modeling on the stuff you CAN see is very clean and rich with detail, very few cars have details below the skin. Off the top of my head, the only premium cars which maintain details even when getting bent out of shape are the rally cars and NASCAR stock cars.

 

[MisterWhiskers]

GT6 should cover up the things that the bad Forza players attack us with and to make it an even BETTER game. FOR THE PLAYER'S SAKE, MAKE A FRICKEN' TRADE SYSTEM! I LOST MY HOLDEN MONARO TO SOME SCAMMER! Car sounds, livery editor, body kits, and a little bit of variety for cars. Also, game modes such as the soccer game, but not exactly copied from Forza (obviously). The last thing, but not least, is making all cars premium. I don't want a list of cars that have bad graphics and some with good graphics.

 

[Exorcet]

I can't believe the amount of people who are fine with the cars as they are. Color me Shocked.

I would personally be very disappointed if the cars in GT6 (+ interior views) didn't look better.

PD should strive to make the models even more realistic. Until they reach photorealism there is no point to stop improving the car details and I don't think they are there yet.

This would come off as lazy to me if the car models remained the same.

Even under photo-mode conditions I think things can improve.

edit: The interiors need tons of love. I play in using that view and I think Forza 4 interiors look better. GT6 interiors need a big upgrade. I want to see texture on the leather and other fine details on dashes and steering wheels. I don't feel like it's there all the way in either GT5 or Forza4.

The way I see it, more detail is more resources spent on graphics. There is already too much.

GT6 could look identical to GT5 for all I care. For me, the physics and racing are infinitely more important.

 

[Zer0]

That's a bullshot and you know it.

Same bullshot as this:

 

[Prototyp3]

They could use some polish and a few more details here and there, sure, but what I'm saying is that the cars in GT5 does not have to be scratch made for GT6. Do you disagree?

Ok, If the cars can be improved from their Photomode versions to look even better I think I *could* be fine with that. I don't know... I guess I really want to be blown away by GT6.

I think that the pure car models are not the problem in GT5. Despite the fact that not all premium models are on an equal quality level. Some cars like the R34 GTR need some serious work.

But it is more about the shortcuts and tricks they needed in GT5 to display everything on that weak hardware. Many dashboards are blurred in the cockpit view and some textures are not as hd as they could be. All problems because of the hardware limitations i think.

A good example how good the cars could look on a PS4 is the Project Cars game. Still in development, but you can see what a difference it is to GT5.

Games like Forza Motorsport 5 and GT6 could become real graphical gems on the new hardware.

So the question of the thread can be mostly answered with a short "yes". We are currently in a position where the inrace-carmodels are only towned down by limited hardware power. Just look at the cars in the dealership or the autovista mode in FM4. Just car porn, but we have to wait till we see such graphics on the track.

I agree with underlined. There are plenty of areas for improvements in all the car models. Some more drastic than others.

I disagree but this is not a Forza vs GT comparisson, if you want to compare interiors or view examples without going off topic this is the thread:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7786731#post7786731

With a better hardware better filtering will occur and crisper details will bring to the GT6 interiors a new shine, also better lighting will enhace a lot the overall look. Modelling-wise GT5 interiors are next gen proof with just minor adjustments, some textures and maybe defining some new materials. It's probably that Polyhony has all the cars originally modeled in a perfect mathematical model and if needed can be upscaled with the help of just one click.

This is the actual GT5 level, in the worst scenario and without changes it will look even better in GT6.

Click for detail.

See I look at that picture, and the other 2 you posted below, and I dash and steering wheel look so fake to me. It's like it's worse than plastic, it makes those components look like a toy. Especially when you click on the picture and enlarge it, you can see that the texture work isn't very deep. I think this needs to be improved. I'm not saying any other game does any better this gen, there is give and take with all the racing games.

I just want GT6 to blow me away in every respect.

 

[Tornado]

Same bullshot as this:

Forgive me, but how exactly do the second two pictures of a different car on a different track prove that the first one isn't a bullshot?

 

[Saidur_Ali]

See I look at that picture, and the other 2 you posted below, and I dash and steering wheel look so fake to me. It's like it's worse than plastic, it makes those components look like a toy. Especially when you click on the picture and enlarge it, you can see that the texture work isn't very deep. I think this needs to be improved. I'm not saying any other game does any better this gen, there is give and take with all the racing games.

I just want GT6 to blow me away in every respect.

It will take a lot of effort to make it to the level you probably want, not worth the time and effort for very little extra detail to be added. That task could be saved for a few decades later.

(Picture taken by GTPlanet member Christoforo)

I think graphics like that while driving in-game will be fine to me for a Gran Turismo game on the PS3 successor.

 

[DingoDile]

They are fine for GT6 in 2013 or 2014. but after that, we need real next gen models.

 

[Samus]

They are fine for GT6 in 2013 or 2014. but after that, we need real next gen models.

Which would be what? There will come a time when there is nothing more you can do with the actual model and all the work left is the lighting and associated areas to get the cars looking perfect. You can keep adding more and more polys but it doesn't guarantee they're going to look much better. I mean if you look at that picture in the OP, describe to me what is wrong with it. The model itself, not the lighting or how realistic it looks as a whole.

Because except a couple of plain textures in the engine model and some slight noticable straight edges that should be more rounded it looks pretty damn good to me.

 

[DingoDile]

Which would be what? There will come a time when there is nothing more you can do with the actual model and all the work left is the lighting and associated areas to get the cars looking perfect. You can keep adding more and more polys but it doesn't guarantee they're going to look much better. I mean if you look at that picture in the OP, describe to me what is wrong with it. The model itself, not the lighting or how realistic it looks as a whole.

Because except a couple of plain textures in the engine model and some slight noticable straight edges that should be more rounded it looks pretty damn good to me.

I think you`re right!
GT5 models are the most accurate models I have ever seen in racing games & Lighting in this game is outstanding even after 2.5 years (I think only Project Cars on high end PCs can surpass it)
I really want to see what PD can do next gen. GT5 was superb but it had lots of technical problems & a GT6 without those problems (a game like GT1,2,3,4 in their times) would be OUTSTANDING!

 

[Earth]

They are fine for GT6 in 2013 or 2014. but after that, we need real next gen models.

Kaz himself said GT5 car models are more suited to the next gen (PS4)

Once we see GT6, I think many people will be surprised to see how good the GT5 car models can look unrestricted. Fixing the shadows and low res smoke/spray alone will go a long way to improving the visual experience.

In the Ferrari F430 screenshots Zer0 posted the biggest difference is the smooth shadows i the press release shot and the choppy shadows in the real time pic.

 

[Griffith500]

Which would be what? There will come a time when there is nothing more you can do with the actual model and all the work left is the lighting and associated areas to get the cars looking perfect. You can keep adding more and more polys but it doesn't guarantee they're going to look much better. I mean if you look at that picture in the OP, describe to me what is wrong with it. The model itself, not the lighting or how realistic it looks as a whole.

Because except a couple of plain textures in the engine model and some slight noticable straight edges that should be more rounded it looks pretty damn good to me.

Increased texture detail would indeed make a substantial difference - what PD does with texturing amazes me sometimes, it's fantastic.

One problem with polygon density is that you're chasing screen resolution. We still need AA because of low resolutions (no really, 1080p on most displays at sensible viewing distances is low-res compared to what the eye can "achieve") and yet right now the poly density isn't high enough for 720p, never mind 1080p and above.

That shift to a new paradigm (in terms of "polygons", e.g. parametric surfaces, sparse voxel octrees etc.) might come sooner after all.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

There's also the insanely more-complicated concept of reproducing the entire structure of the vehicles, for the purposes of things like RoR-style damage models. GT5's Premium models are approaching that diminishing-returns apex in terms of their polygonal modeling excellence (though Griff brings up another great point in that regard 👍 ), but there is still a massive amount of model work that can be done to them, as the game features reasonably dictate at the time, anyways.

 

[avens]

Fine for "next gen", but not for the one that comes after it in lets say 8 years.

 

[CorvetteConquer]

Simple answer: Yes.

 

[ShiftingGears]

Are we including the damage modelling with this?

 

[traind]

The way I see it, more detail is more resources spent on graphics. There is already too much.

GT6 could look identical to GT5 for all I care. For me, the physics and racing are infinitely more important.

Agree. Deepen the handling and FFB some more, fix the AI (please!) and the race structure so we don't race offline with so many "spread out over a mile race starts", give us the ability to select the cars we want for an offline race, etc.

But next gen consoles get sold on graphics initially and PS4 needs some great looking titles to compete. The current premium models at full res (in the dealership mode) look absolutely fantastic and, with better lighting and racing effects, would step up the in game view significantly. If they can be used in game then PD saves a bunch of time on graphics and just has to focus on tracks & effects--graphically at least.

Someone else gave their reasoning earlier in the thread why PS4 should be able to run the premium car models at the current dealership level of detail in game. I am not buying that the PS4 has that much horsepower just yet but it would be great if it does.

 

[Earth]

Someone else gave their reasoning earlier in the thread why PS4 should be able to run the premium car models at the current dealership level of detail in game. I am not buying that the PS4 has that much horsepower just yet but it would be great if it does.

It really shouldnt be so hard to believe.

Gran Turismo 4 had 6 cars on track, with each car around 5k polygons

Gran Turismo 5 has 16 cars on track, with each car over 100k polygons.

Not to mention the massive upgrades in resolution, along with day/night and weather effects and HDR lighting

 

[carpdan10smaa]

i believe that the cars in gt 5 are detailed Enough for the ps4 but don't you want them to bring a whole new face-lift to gt 6 the main issues that need to be addressed is the lack of cars in the premium garage and the lack or interior with standard cars, there should be extra little things that are part of the car, light dials, the ability to use a clutch, damage needs to be made to be more realistic (in my opinion) the cars are very detailed as they are.

now the customization (my favorite area) this whole section needs to be re-vamped i.e. paints shouldn't come from purchasing cars they should be readily available, more body kits, auto sculpt, a whole ranger or rims not just the select repetitive few, and engine swaps.

 

[notStig]

I kinda agree with DingoDile. If GT6 is a launch title for PS4 it's OK. But if the PS4 is going to be much more powerful than the PS3 it'll be able to handle better detailed models. Kaz indeed said GT5 cars are next gen but to what extent? If any of the next gen GT games have full damage modelling, for example, then the cars will need detailed interior and mechanical parts and GT5 cars do not have them. I personally am not a fan of the idea of mixing resources from two generetions of games.

 

[ChicoMaloXD]

Yes. But some cars (probably the majority) have terrible jagged fenders and undetailed brake discs/calipers.
I hope the cars look as good as they do in PHOTO TRAVEL with more detailed brakes and modeled shocks.

 

[Strittan]

Which would be what? There will come a time when there is nothing more you can do with the actual model and all the work left is the lighting and associated areas to get the cars looking perfect. You can keep adding more and more polys but it doesn't guarantee they're going to look much better. I mean if you look at that picture in the OP, describe to me what is wrong with it. The model itself, not the lighting or how realistic it looks as a whole.

Because except a couple of plain textures in the engine model and some slight noticable straight edges that should be more rounded it looks pretty damn good to me.

This.

They have reached a point where even higher poly count hardly makes a difference. It's a shame people are good at confusing photorealism with modeling.

 

[Griffith500]

This.

They have reached a point where even higher poly count hardly makes a difference. It's a shame people are good at confusing photorealism with modeling.

Do you say this having seen higher polycounts and thus knowing it first hand to be true, or just because you can't imagine where the improvements will come next, much as we couldn't ten or twenty or thirty years ago? Anything that is using tessellation (so, not GT5) is technically increasing the polycount massively, and I'd say that that makes a difference when done right.

We're closer to true photorealism now, sure, but that doesn't mean there isn't still a long way to go in all areas. Also, a static TV broadcast standard will not hold back the rest of the industry.

 

[Strittan]

Do you say this having seen higher polycounts and thus knowing it first hand to be true, or just because you can't imagine where the improvements will come next, much as we couldn't ten or twenty or thirty years ago? Anything that is using tessellation (so, not GT5) is technically increasing the polycount massively, and I'd say that that makes a difference when done right.

I can imagine where the improvements will come, but I say they will hardly make a difference and PD have far more important stuff to put time into. I'd rather have as many cars on track as possible at the highest frame rate possible, than car models with higher poly count.

We're closer to true photorealism now, sure, but that doesn't mean there isn't still a long way to go in all areas. Also, a static TV broadcast standard will not hold back the rest of the industry.

It's funny that just as I mentioned people are good at confusing photorealism with modeling, that's exactly what you do. Photorealism is not so much about poly count as it is about lighting, shadows and reflections. Not these days anyway. Having smoother edges (higher anti-aliasing) would also make quite a difference, and I think we'll see big improvements here on the next console.

I don't think either are to be honest.

Tell me, what's wrong about the cars then? The 3D models that is, excluding lighting, reflections etc etc.

I don't think you know what you're talking about to be honest.

 

[Griffith500]

I can imagine where the improvements will come, but I say they will hardly make a difference and PD have far more important stuff to put time into. I'd rather have as many cars on track as possible at the highest frame rate possible, than car models with higher poly count.

It's funny that just as I mentioned people are good at confusing photorealism with modeling, that's exactly what you do. Photorealism is not so much about poly count as it is about lighting, shadows and reflections. Not these days anyway. Having smoother edges (higher anti-aliasing) would also make quite a difference, and I think we'll see big improvements here on the next console.

Tell me, what's wrong about the cars then? The 3D models that is, excluding lighting, reflections etc etc.

I don't think you know what you're talking about to be honest.

What's even funnier is you using a poorly defined, nebulous, subjective term (at least as far as its general usage is concerned) like "photorealism" as some kind of cornerstone for argument.

Anyway, what about the aliasing due to the poor on-screen vertex-resolution to pixel-resolution ratios exhibited in the game? Would you not see an improvement, or is your imagination lacking again? Since you still haven't demonstrated proof that higher polycounts make no difference, I'm assuming that's all you're relying on.

But of course lighting is important, I never said it wasn't. Saying that improvements can't be made, or rather "don't need" (Need? Who needs games?) to be made, in polycount is flat-out false.
There's probably more to do in other areas than graphics, but that doesn't mean graphics don't still have a long way to go in all areas.

I'm not saying the Premiums are inadequate for PS4 (although they are in some ways), just that we are nowhere near the "polycount" (or equivalent) cap for true photorealism - that is: computer generated graphics absolutely (not "psychometrically", not subjectively - measurably) indistinguishable from real life.

 

[Prototyp3]

As a few have brought up something we need to take in mind for photo-realistic cars is lighting and other effects.

I don't know all the technical terms for everything like bitmapping, vectors, or whatever, but what I do know is what I see.

When I look at my car in real life and then look at the cars in GT5 there is a HUGE difference.

My only hope is that GT6 makes that difference smaller than GT5. As long as it's clearly better looking then GT5 I'll be happy .

 

[TexasTyme214]

I originally voted yes, but I take it back. I'm under the impression that the cars are just a nice shell, but no individual parts are modeled. It's like we have so many polygons, but they aren't spread across multiple areas of the car. We never see bumpers falling off, doors hanging off, etc. unless it's a modern, premium rally car. All the cars need to reach that standard if the licenses allow it. Here's an example:

 

[Antairez]

I am actually looking forward to see 4k textures on GT6, although I highly doubt that they will re-do all the textures for every car ...

Anyway, I am more interested in the spec of PS4, that's what ultimately regulates the potential of any game.