Cars - Are they detailed enough already?

[Samus]

Blah.

Which, given the thread title, is the entire point.

Ah, you edited.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Ah, you edited.

I just didn't feel like continuing.

 

[notStig]

After seeing that Drive Club video yesterday, I still think GT5 models need more detail. Drive Club is a launch title so I doubt that's all the PS4 has to offer. Like I said before, GT5 cars are OK for a first PS4 GT title with some tweaking but they wouldn't be on par with those made specifically for next-gen. I don't care much if they are in GT6 but I don't think they are fit for future games.

 

[OHM_fusion]

After seeing that Drive Club video yesterday, I still think GT5 models need more detail. Drive Club is a launch title so I doubt that's all the PS4 has to offer. Like I said before, GT5 cars are OK for a first PS4 GT title with some tweaking but they wouldn't be on par with those made specifically for next-gen. I don't care much if they are in GT6 but I don't think they are fit for future games.

Would you mind elaborating? How do you think a 3D car model "made specifically for next-gen" should look and how does it differ from the current GT5 models?

 

[Dhalism]

I started playing games when you still had to use imagination, and I haven't lost that ability yet. Some games I wish the graphics was worse, because technically speaking the game looks spectacularly, but the artists who worked on it made it look cartoonish, unrealistic, the movements jerky. It looks too real for imagination to kick in, but too **** to be enjoyable.

So, I don't care, as long as the gameplay is good, I'll take anything

 

[Prototyp3]

Drive Club is certainly smoother, just look at the badge outline. Looks pretty much round in that, doesn't in GT5. Same on the kidney grille, Photomode version isn't far off but the Drive Club is still better.



Well it applies to this thread, that's a PS4 game and the OP is asking if the GT5 cars are good enough for PS4.

This.

Also, the fact that the pics from drive club are coming off a stream. It'll look even better once we get true HD stills from the game footage.

 

[Griffith500]

That smoothness might just be tessellation (it'd possibly save on memory usage, and maybe vertex setup on the CPU). Something weird is happening between GT5's in-game model and the photo-mode (/ travel) pictures - might be some sort of crude subdivision there, too.

 

[notStig]

Would you mind elaborating? How do you think a 3D car model "made specifically for next-gen" should look and how does it differ from the current GT5 models?

Basically what I meant is that in this gen, the cars were modelled with the PS3 limitations in mind. With the PS4's much higher limitations the car are able to achieve a greater level of detail. The level of detail in Drive Club is truly amazing and I don't think PD have thought that far ahead when they started working on GT5.
Though GT5 car do look very nice, there's still plenty of room for improvement.

 

[another_jakhole]

Basically what I meant is that in this gen, the cars were modelled with the PS3 limitations in mind. With the PS4's much higher limitations the car are able to achieve a greater level of detail. The level of detail in Drive Club is truly amazing and I don't think PD have thought that far ahead when they started working on GT5.
Though GT5 car do look very nice, there's still plenty of room for improvement.

https://www.gtplanet.net/gt5s-premium-cars-go-beyond-ps3s-capabilities/

but
True

 

[ShiftingGears]

I feel that if PD wanted to better their damage modelling they would have to do more with the car models. So in that regard, no.

 

[another_jakhole]

Basically what I meant is that in this gen, the cars were modelled with the PS3 limitations in mind. With the PS4's much higher limitations the car are able to achieve a greater level of detail. The level of detail in Drive Club is truly amazing and I don't think PD have thought that far ahead when they started working on GT5.
Though GT5 car do look very nice, there's still plenty of room for improvement.

https://www.gtplanet.net/gt5s-premium-cars-go-beyond-ps3s-capabilities/

but
True
______________________

I feel that if PD wanted to better their damage modelling they would have to do more with the car models. So in that regard, no.

http://www.lensoftruth.com/head2head-gran-turismo-5-vs-forza-3-analysis/

Graphics: In general, vehicle models across platforms looked incredible and photo realistic. However, the major differences between the two versions was how each platform handled vehicle damage. It’s was clear that Gran Turismo 5 had implemented a rarely used feature called Decal Tessellation. Without going into too much detail, the idea behind this technique is to take a displacement map texture, project it onto geometry - just like a decal – and tessellate the geometry in real time so that the displaced geometry looks like physical damage to the vehicle. Plain and simple, mimicking realistic damage on the fly. On the flip side, Forza 3 simply swapped out decals and models which made collision between vehicles look rather dull compared to Gran Turismo 5. Although we’re not comparing graphical differences in this article, a little information about the vehicles damage systems felt appropriate.

Seriously, don't anyone dare say that car manufacturers have no say in the "level" of damage their products receive. Give us some logical and sound opinion as to why what I said is wrong, if you want to try. I'm ready. I only say this because it's YOU that I'm replying to, ShiftingGears.


And, it seems like you're assuming crap. The Premium cars are fit for the next-gen of consoles, Kaz said over three years ago. You think they didn't prepare for the future of their games after the debacle GT5 was and had to go through (in the eyes of the underwhelmed).

What gets me is that this thread is about the visual quality of the Premium cars. So in that regard, no? Really? Really?

 

[ShiftingGears]

https://www.gtplanet.net/gt5s-premium-cars-go-beyond-ps3s-capabilities/

but
True
______________________




http://www.lensoftruth.com/head2head-gran-turismo-5-vs-forza-3-analysis/



Seriously, don't anyone dare say that car manufacturers have no say in the "level" of damage their products receive. Give us some logical and sound opinion as to why what I said is wrong, if you want to try. I'm ready. I only say this because it's YOU that I'm replying to, ShiftingGears.


And, it seems like you're assuming crap. The Premium cars are fit for the next-gen of consoles, Kaz said over three years ago. You think they didn't prepare for the future of their games after the debacle GT5 was and had to go through (in the eyes of the underwhelmed).

What gets me is that this thread is about the visual quality of the Premium cars. So in that regard, no? Really? Really?

Well thanks for the irrelevant link, but my point is that they would have to model engine bays for severe impacts, and such. Rather than simply copy-pasting GT5 premium cars over.

 

[sonic378]

Premium cars that are in GT5 are what should be in GT6. Standards... **** no.

 

[OHM_fusion]

ShiftingGears.

And, it seems like you're assuming crap. The Premium cars are fit for the next-gen of consoles, Kaz said over three years ago. You think they didn't prepare for the future of their games after the debacle GT5 was and had to go through (in the eyes of the underwhelmed).

I agree with you, but it doesn't even matter what Kaz said in this case. It should be obvious to anyone that the cars are future proof just by looking at them.

Well thanks for the irrelevant link, but my point is that they would have to model engine bays for severe impacts, and such. Rather than simply copy-pasting GT5 premium cars over.

They can easily add the engine bays on existing models, so they can copy-paste the cars and still model the engine or whatever. But I think that modelling all engines for all cars would not be worth the time and effort just for damage. But, that's just my opinion of course.

 

[Earth]

Those who want PD to "scrap" GT5 models need to keep one thing in mind. Many "every day" cars that were modeled on GT5 will probably never be seen again if they started over.

The Dodge Neon, PT Cruiser and other cars from GT's past will likely never ever make an appearance in the GT universe again because they arent as important today as they were back then. The beauty about keeping car models from previous generations is that said cars will always be around.

I'd prefer PD to hold onto the GT5 car models as long as they can, only updating them as time goes on.

 

[Imari]

Those who want PD to "scrap" GT5 models need to keep one thing in mind. Many "every day" cars that were modeled on GT5 will probably never be seen again if they started over.

The Dodge Neon, PT Cruiser and other cars from GT's past will likely never ever make an appearance in the GT universe again because they arent as important today as they were back then. The beauty about keeping car models from previous generations is that said cars will always be around.

I'd prefer PD to hold onto the GT5 car models as long as they can, only updating them as time goes on.

By this logic they should still have cars from GT1 and 2 as well. At what point do you say that the out of date models detract more from the game than they add to it?

 

[Strittan]

Basically what I meant is that in this gen, the cars were modelled with the PS3 limitations in mind. With the PS4's much higher limitations the car are able to achieve a greater level of detail. The level of detail in Drive Club is truly amazing and I don't think PD have thought that far ahead when they started working on GT5.
Though GT5 car do look very nice, there's still plenty of room for improvement.

Wrong. The cars in GT5 are more than the PS3 can handle. The in-game models are downgraded versions of the actual models. If you take a car to Photo Travel and compare it to the in-game version you'll see that the Photo Travel model is far more detailed.

Besides, Kaz himself have said that the cars in GT5 are better suited for next gen.

 

[RedBaron]

Full dealer premium models of GT5 are more than you can ever want even for GT7. It's only fuziness of some analog dials inside that makes them unusable on the screen while driving and this should be solved.

Everything other in this game needs more care than cars. Physical engine with tyre model and suspension dynamics, realistic drivetrain, clutch slipping and overrevving with damage when you kick in first gear in 100mph, realistic ABS function, realistic function of automatic transmissions, exact steering wheel range for every car, more realistic collision system, damage system, whole game system of races and game progression which is extremely boring in GT5, realistic engine sounds with much more samples variating with throttle position, totally stable 60 FPS in real Full HD resolution without tearing, track and enviroment details, shadow detail, volumetric smoke, new lightning system, better weather system with volumetric clouds, realistic heat haze with mirroring in small angle and I could continue for hours...

 

[Earth]

By this logic they should still have cars from GT1 and 2 as well. At what point do you say that the out of date models detract more from the game than they add to it?

Hard to say. Perhaps when the resolution and detail of the environment exceeds the quality of the cars?

Even in 4K on a PS5 the cars can be given a "HD" upgrade as the standard cars were given for PS3. GT5 has already been seen running in 4K and people said it looked great. I believe GT5 premiums are far ahead of GT5's "standard" cars (really GT4 models) and will fair much better on PS5. They have 100x the polygons, full cockpit, full functioning and detailed parts like doors and headlights when such things were only a texture or a few polygons with "standard" cars.

Looking long term, I'll take a wild shot and assume GT5 car models, while continuously being updated with more detail inside and out as well as higher res textures, will be fine for the next generation of Playstation (4) and even the one after that.

Honestly I cant ever see their need to be replaced completely. A 500k polygon car takes 3 months of manpower to model. Lets assume a 1m polygon model takes 6 months. If people expect 2m polygon models 5-7 years from now or even right now are we looking at 1 year of manpower for a single model? Such figures may be fine for a racing game that features a few dozen cars, but for a racing game like Gran Turismo, where hundreds of cars are expected suddenly it may not be feasible without ultra long development time.

Also, arent you tired of the number of cars in the GT games going up, then down, then up, then down with perhaps some of your favorites getting lost in the shuffle? Wouldnt you want just up, up, up, up, even if it means the cars arent as quite as shiny as other racers?

For me, the ultimate dream of Gran Turismo is for Le Mans to have a full 55 car grid, and for the Nurburgring 24 hr to have a full 150 car grid. If PD constantly upgrades their cars to the point they drain every bit of power out of the new system without any left over for larger grids my dream will probably never happen.

 

[Topsu]

Are the GT5 cars ready for this?

 

[Fazerfan]

Are the GT5 cars ready for this?

Fingers crossed that GT6 is as good as that!

 

[Samus]

They're certainly not modeled to that degree undernearth now if that is what you're asking.

Seriously, don't anyone dare say that car manufacturers have no say in the "level" of damage their products receive. Give us some logical and sound opinion as to why what I said is wrong, if you want to try. I'm ready. I only say this because it's YOU that I'm replying to, ShiftingGears.

It doesn't work that way around. You're the one claiming that manufacturers have a say, you show us evidence that they do, not the other way around.

 

[OHM_fusion]

Are the GT5 cars ready for this?

1. GT5 cars don't have anything under the hood modeled, but it can be added to the existing cars. They don't have to build the cars from scratch.

2. I don't think they should be modelling engines. They are complicated to model, take a lot of time to do and the only real reason to make them is to make the damage look better. It's not worth it IMO, especially in a game that needs as much cars as possible. They should just concentrate on making the exteriors perfect, they are pretty close to that already.

 

[Samus]

They need to be modelling anything that will realistically become exposed in an accident. I think games do rip the bonnet off cars in crashes far too easily compared to real life but it does happen so they should be modelled in some way. In GT5 only the WRC cars are modelled.

They certainly should be modeling the inside of wheels and the visible suspension though. I took a picture of the back of the Mach1 in GT5 a while ago and the inside wheel is just solid with a very unconvincing looking shock absorber just floating there. That sort of detail needs to be added, even if it's just because everyone else is and they have to keep up.

We already know SMS are modelling their cars completely and if T10 and their outsourcing companies do for their next game PD are going to be left behind if they don't. That's why I really hope in the last two years they swallowed their pride and at least tested out the possibility of outsourcing.

 

[OHM_fusion]

^Simon, I agree on the wheels part. They are by far the ugliest part of the premium cars and should be fixed. But I'm still against them wasting time on engines, unless, as you said they outsource.

I also don't think Turn 10 will do it either, they have, what, 600 cars or something? It wouldn't make sense. And SMS does model everything, but as a result they have far less cars. I would assume for most people more cars with good exteriors are more important than the cars having detailed parts underneath which will be rarely seen anyway.

 

[MisterWhiskers]

The S15's rear is raised pretty high, even with height decrease. IDK that's just my eyes.

 

[Samus]

I think at the very least they need to be modelling anything seen from the exterior at any angle, including the underside and suspension area. Engines I could live without because as I say how many accidents do you actually see in real racing where the bonnet comes off? Not many. They do already do it for those cars where the engine is visible though. I really don't know how long that sort of thing would take, I suppose for a lot of modern cars where everything is covered in plastic it wouldn't take that long.

Given that T10 already made a start with full modelling on Autovista cars which will obviously be the in game models for next gen then if they have the time and manpower I can see them doing more for all of them, they aren't going to want a divide in their cars like GT5.

 

[TokoTurismo]

I also don't think Turn 10 will do it either, they have, what, 600 cars or something? It wouldn't make sense. And SMS does model everything, but as a result they have far less cars. I would assume for most people more cars with good exteriors are more important than the cars having detailed parts underneath which will be rarely seen anyway.

Not only cars but also customizing...

 

[Starciller]

For me, the ultimate dream of Gran Turismo is for Le Mans to have a full 55 car grid, and for the Nurburgring 24 hr to have a full 150 car grid. If PD constantly upgrades their cars to the point they drain every bit of power out of the new system without any left over for larger grids my dream will probably never happen.[/QUOTE]


Me to man me to

 

[another_jakhole]

I agree with you, but it doesn't even matter what Kaz said in this case. It should be obvious to anyone that the cars are future proof just by looking at them.



They can easily add the engine bays on existing models, so they can copy-paste the cars and still model the engine or whatever. But I think that modelling all engines for all cars would not be worth the time and effort just for damage. But, that's just my opinion of course.

Wrong. The cars in GT5 are more than the PS3 can handle. The in-game models are downgraded versions of the actual models. If you take a car to Photo Travel and compare it to the in-game version you'll see that the Photo Travel model is far more detailed.

Besides, Kaz himself have said that the cars in GT5 are better suited for next gen.

👍

1. GT5 cars don't have anything under the hood modeled, but it can be added to the existing cars. They don't have to build the cars from scratch.

2. I don't think they should be modelling engines. They are complicated to model, take a lot of time to do and the only real reason to make them is to make the damage look better. It's not worth it IMO, especially in a game that needs as much cars as possible. They should just concentrate on making the exteriors perfect, they are pretty close to that already.

👍👍👍👍👍👍👍

^Simon, I agree on the wheels part. They are by far the ugliest part of the premium cars and should be fixed. But I'm still against them wasting time on engines, unless, as you said they outsource.

I also don't think Turn 10 will do it either, they have, what, 600 cars or something? It wouldn't make sense. And SMS does model everything, but as a result they have far less cars. I would assume for most people more cars with good exteriors are more important than the cars having detailed parts underneath which will be rarely seen anyway.

👍👍👍👍👍 👍👍👍👍👍👍👍

For me, the ultimate dream of Gran Turismo is for Le Mans to have a full 55 car grid, and for the Nurburgring 24 hr to have a full 150 car grid. If PD constantly upgrades their cars to the point they drain every bit of power out of the new system without any left over for larger grids my dream will probably never happen.


Me to man me to

Preferences. That's the issue. I would love for this to happen as well, but we have to be realistic.



now
I have a post in the works, but I had to make this one first. You'll see.

First of all, thanks to those who replied. I don't have to reply to ShiftingGears, but only to SimonK.



This "irrelevant link" pertains to the thread's topic, sir smart aleck and, "oh, I'll twist the topic THIS WAY, so that jackhole here looks stupid", ShiftingGears.
https://www.gtplanet.net/gt5s-premium-cars-go-beyond-ps3s-capabilities/

It doesn't work that way around. You're the one claiming that manufacturers have a say, you show us evidence that they do, not the other way around.

Since this thread is basically meant to ask about the visual quality, I need proof from "You" as to why manufacturers don't have a say in that kind of stuff.

Okay, so. The ZR1 Corvette and C7 Stingray don't allow for us to use snow or dirt tires whist all the other Chevy's allow us to. Why bring that up? Car manufacturers might have something to do with that "problem". That's one minor thing that also applies to certain manufacturers. The Vipers (Dodge) allow for us to use snow and dirt tires, while Mercedes doesn't for most, I believe, of their cars.


Ctrl + F for damage in these next links for "proof" which I always show some kind of "irrelevent links" to what evidence I can provide to support my case against those of you who believe I'm a PD apologist. I only think it's unfair the way that Kaz and crew have been critiqued. After the PlayStation Meeting, if you saw it, maybe you can see why the overreactions towards GT5's shortcomings and failures were not warranted. A lot of flaws and such, yes, but overall, the overREACTING isn't warranted.



Ctrl + F and search "damage" in these next links for "proof"

This one isn't "proof", but we're not exactly on-topic so take it for what you will.
https://www.gtplanet.net/brand-new-real-time-damage-coming-to-gran-turismo-5/

Compromising for the Consumer: keep that in mind when Kaz says he wants the damage to be perfect.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=4068774#post4068774

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=4050804#post4050804

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=4050803#post4050803

Excuse me if two of the links basically "explain" the same thing.


If you're not going to bother doing what I suggested, don't bother me as I'm just getting back to the rhythm of shutting up the people that can't be mature enough to take "Our" words of Knowledge and Speculation to heart.


Again, thank you so much to ShiftingGears for pulling a fast one and making this thread more about being right, instead of seriously trying to speculate on how ahead of others Kaz is than the rest of the world . After all, you, ShiftingGears, are the one who made me decide to stop posting as much, if at all, on GTP.



_________________________________________
http://i5.minus.com/iF0GaJzIV4PJ1.jpg
Unnecesary double post... I'm out. Peace and love. This jackhole has signed off.
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/7348/circuitdespafrancorchamh.jpg