cars that are just better

[Scaff]

i personally think that the N tires are more based towards cheapie Wall Mart "special" type tires hard as a rock compound as opposed to performance street tires

If you are refering to N1s then I would agree, but N2s are closer to standard original equipment tyres fitted by most manufacturers and N3s clsoe to high performance (but not track) road tyres.

I tested each type (and a lot) more fitted to an M3 and compared the results to real world M3 cornering data, which confirmed the above. The 'feel' that Kent is talking about is a totally different issue.

For the M3 test data click here:

BMW M3 - An analysis of tyre choice

thats kind of like comparing to say a calaway corvette with with a 427 twin turbo
SB under the hood
it might be better to comapre to say the way you can get superformace "cobra" kit cars mild to wild that sort of thing

if your understanding the point the point im getting at

I get you're point, no problem with that. I just used the Dauer 962 as the most extreme example of a road legal car I could think of, first one that came to mind.

Regards

Scaff

 

[B_B_B]

If you are refering to N1s then I would agree, but N2s are closer to standard original equipment tyres fitted by most manufacturers and N3s clsoe to high performance (but not track) road tyres.

I tested each type (and a lot) more fitted to an M3 and compared the results to real world M3 cornering data, which confirmed the above. The 'feel' that Kent is talking about is a totally different issue.

For the M3 test data click here:

BMW M3 - An analysis of tyre choice

ive never tested indepth myself but basically your saying n1's are cheapies n2's are moderate priced tires like say cooper cobra's and n3's are basic z rated tires?

 

[Slick Rick]

The Pagani Zonda c12 s 7.(3)?? is a very good supercar and out performs most of my others.

 

[Scaff]

ive never tested indepth myself but basically your saying n1's are cheapies n2's are moderate priced tires like say cooper cobra's and n3's are basic z rated tires?

As a rough guide, yes thats about right.

Regards

Scaff

 

[JTSnooks]

I'm pretty sure the Radical isn't street legal in the US, and I certainly wouldn't want to drive one every day. But 6'55 is still an amazing time no matter what the situation. One question, was that on racing tires or fully treaded street tires?

 

[Scaff]

I'm pretty sure the Radical isn't street legal in the US, and I certainly wouldn't want to drive one every day. But 6'55 is still an amazing time no matter what the situation. One question, was that on racing tires or fully treaded street tires?

The tyres were Dunlop Direnza, they are road legal. Its a trackday/road tyre with a just legal semi-track tread pattern.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Folkedahl]

The Ultima GTR might be able to take the Radical SR8, it crushes street car lap times everywhere it goes. To my knowledge its the only street car to ever do 0-100-0mph in under 10 seconds. It got 1.176 on the skidpad too.

 

[R_Riders]

Regarding cars having advantages in GT4 over others i just cant see it.
With all the passion and engineering that has gone into GT4 i cant see PD blatantly making some cars better than others.

I always compare cars on N2 and N3 tyres (Scaff has done a great job of providing evidence that these are closest to real tyres) and i dont find any evidence that some cars are unrealistically better than others.

Take the Nissan Skyline, yes it can be tuned to silly power levels of 700-800+ bhp, however, in reality the Skyline engine and chassis can take this amount of power quite reliably as has been proven by countless tuners over the world, with its extremely clever 4WD system i dont doubt its probably fair to assume its fairly easy to drive quite quickly for most people...

I think that some cars respond better and are ultimatly quicker in Gt4 is to be expected, in reality the Skylines, Nsx's Corvettes and M3's have been used for racing because the standard car is so good, i think thats what is being seen in GT4, the good cars will always shine and highlight the bad ones.

I for one think all things being equal there is no bias towards certain cars.
I think the truly polished cars should and will be easier to drive fast and thus...
I think some respond better to our driving abilities

Dave

Well said. I think i tired to say something similar, but given it's me, I somehow screwed up, I prob should have just over-analyzed my words to be sure they made complete sense, or something.

Anywho. Yeah, that's what I tried to say, and also the fact I too test out cars on mostly N2' and N3s, Kent pointed out he tested the BMW M3 GTR and C5 Z06 on S3's, I test my cars mainly on road tires beucase of what Scaff pointed out, but also mainly (to be honest) on Gabkick's earlier advice when I first started on GT4 (least on raod cars, racing cars, sports or racing tires... maybe N3s... MAYBE... after a run on N2's on the ring with a Delta S4... lets just say I'm not in such a hurry... although if/when I get to play again next week, I might try it again... and N3s' too...), and it seams to be the case.

On a BMI video, I recall an Evo 8 (forgot if it was GSR or MR, probably MR) got a 1.03 sec range on Tsukaba, it was either me or Gabkicks using an Evo 8 on N3's tires we got very close to that time. The Z06 was slighly slower. But Tsukaba is really more so for low speed cars although it is a good proving ground (but even the BMI guys said something along the lines of the track really mean to test cars going as fast as 180kph...which is about 110 mph...). It's also why I test out cars throughly stock on N2 or N3 tires (sometimes N1 for very low HP cars).

Obvioulsy different tires are going to yeald differnet reuslts. Same for differnet drivers (again), I wanta see if I can get anywhere near Kent's claimed times (or the .de times... and just to ask... where are they? ... sorry to sound daft but I really don't know...I'll prob search after making this message) and well, see if the M3 GTR is really that ahead at the least on the ring.

Something else I'm sure I'm forgetting.

Anyhow, on to the other thing about the Radical... amaizing time, the car dosne't look street legal, but if it has all the requirments to make it road legal... well okay then.

As for the C6 Z06, it's been said again and again, an amaizing car by Chevrolet, perhaps their best road attempt in ... ever besides the C5 Z06 (IMHO anyway), hopefully not their last if anyone has been following the busisness news of GM.

And then the Zonda, again, I have to give props to Scaff and others, and yeah, I was about to say it seamed like the same case with the Ford GT. But I've given it a go on GT4, it seams controllable enough, but I can't say anything in defense to the Zonda yet because I haven't driven it yet (lack of interest, partly due to an ignroance becuase it had a Mercedes engine... and for a long time i had a bias against them excluding the E55 (old and new), SLR, and oddly enough the AMG CLS 55 (thank you Jeremy Clarkson...)... ), I might now to see what I had been missing since GT3.

Again, I'm sure I'm leaving something out, maybe not.

Till later.

 

[Speedy Samurai]

The Ultima GTR might be able to take the Radical SR8, it crushes street car lap times everywhere it goes. To my knowledge its the only street car to ever do 0-100-0mph in under 10 seconds. It got 1.176 on the skidpad too.

Well then, the new 1000hp Hennessey Viper might have something to say about that. As everybody heralds the coming of the long awaited Bugatti Veyron the Hennessey hit the street shortly after and became the first car to do the 1/4 mile in under 10 seconds.

 

[Kent]

Same for differnet drivers (again), I wanta see if I can get anywhere near Kent's claimed times (or the .de times... and just to ask... where are they? ... sorry to sound daft but I really don't know...I'll prob search after making this message) and well, see if the M3 GTR is really that ahead at the least on the ring.

Well I'm not all that fast or slow so don't feel bad if you catch me or get left behind.

But just to point you in the right direction...

Regular M3 on the Ring (you will find my M3 time in 4th place in the S3 category approximately 1.8 seconds off the leader).
http://db.gtrp.de/gt4_arcade_track.php?classid=7&track=55

M3 GTR and Z06 (same category) (M3 GTR ran 6'48 for some dude )
http://db.gtrp.de/gt4_arcade_track.php?classid=8&track=55

I haven't submitted my Z06 time yet because I haven't refined the lap.

On that note, don't take the fastest Z06 time at face value (7'12) as I only spent a bit of time on the lap and managed a 7'09.2.
After I shave my time down a bit I will post it up at .de and see how it stacks up against the DB9 (which is faster than most think unless they were one of the luck racers who ran in the WRS week 30).

Anyway, hope that helps.

Also, for the record.
I race mostly on Sports tires for two reasons.
One, because I enjoy a lot.
Two, because most of the in-game racing is done on sports tires and not N tires.


Don't mind me though, everyone has their prefferences right?

btw, R Riders... Be careful using that "claimed times".
Next to any of my top-5 times you will find the replay file and a little check mark showing that the moderators at .de have checked it for validity.

I race clean and legit.

 

[Folkedahl]

Decided to look up some specs.
Ultima GTR 640 0-60 2.7 sec 0-100 5.5 sec Weight 2094 lbs
Hennessey 1000 0-60 2.9 sec 0-100 5.9 sec Weight 3430 lbs

The Ultima costs about half as much too. It's all about the weight.
The Hennessey is alot better looking though.

 

[niky]

The tyres were Dunlop Direnza, they are road legal. Its a trackday/road tyre with a just legal semi-track tread pattern.

Regards

Scaff

I always get to these late.

In support of the street legal argument, my brother used to drive around with track tires on his daily driver. Street legal doesn't require a radio, airconditioning, sound insulation, etc.

And if "cars" like the T-Rex can be considered street legal, I don't doubt they could find a way to legalize the SR8 in the US.

 

[JTSnooks]

True, I see cars driving around with drag radials all the time. In fact, that Hennessey 1/4-mile time was done with drag radials at the rear. "Street-legal", of course. As far as I know, the Z06 time on the ring was set with the production tires. Of course, there's no way it would cut nearly a minute off just by slapping on some barely-legal track-day tires, but it would be interesting to see what it would run.

 

[Kent]

Well, it seems the Z06 is even faster than I thought. 👍

Just ran a few laps (probably about 10) at the ring with various colors of the Z06.
At first I thought my original 7'09 was a good lap.
The only thing to compare it with was a 7'12 from a while back from a racer I don't know.

However, after I started running and messing up I decided it was time to run against the 7'09 ghost.

I kept up for most of the lap, then out of the blue I took a quick look back to see that the ghost was out of sight completely.

Suddenly I realized why my 7'09 hadn't been submitted to .de.
It wasn't that the lap needed to be refined, it was because the lap was dirty... The sandy kind of dirty.

Gained a good 4 seconds on the ghost and finished the lap with something in the 7'04.2 range.
I was stoked and went to check the final turn, as it felt a little too close for comfort while I was running it.
Sadly, that ended up being the death of the lap- It was dirty.

However, I decided to keep at it and after a few tries in a different color (white), I started to notice that there was a good .4 to gain before T2.
I didn't manage to gain that much, or hold that much of a gain.

Fortunately, I did manage a new clean lap though.
7'03.652
Felt like a great lap and put me right in there with the DB9 records.

So basically, to put it bluntly.
The Z06 is badass.
When a great racer gets around to it I am sure we will see sub 7 minute times at the ring.
Here's the page showing the results...
http://db.gtrp.de/gt4_arcade_track.php?classid=8&track=55

Indeed the Vette is awesome.

Now I'm headed off to get a good R-tuned lap in.

Btw, this is all with one night of work... My 7'01.2 lap in the DB9 took a WRS effort to achieve... Maybe with a WRS effort my Z06 time can drop below 7 minutes.

 

[Wolfe]

Decided to look up some specs.
Ultima GTR 640 0-60 2.7 sec 0-100 5.5 sec Weight 2094 lbs
Hennessey 1000 0-60 2.9 sec 0-100 5.9 sec Weight 3430 lbs

The Ultima costs about half as much too. It's all about the weight.
The Hennessey is alot better looking though.

Just keep in mind that the Ultima will not keep up with the Hennessey at 150+mph.

 

[B_B_B]

Just keep in mind that the Ultima will not keep up with the Hennessey at 150+mph.

doesnt the ultima GTR come as kitt car? i beleive it does in that case i nice TT 427SB ls1 would do the trick for top end speed 👍

 

[Scaff]

doesnt the ultima GTR come as kitt car? i beleive it does in that case i nice TT 427SB ls1 would do the trick for top end speed 👍

You would need to do more than change the engine, as the Ultima GTR in standard form is geared for approx 157 mph.

So no wonder the Hennesy would own it over 150mph.

Worth noting the 0-150 figures for both, which were not posted before

Ultima GTR - 11.885 secs
Hennessy 1000 - 10.9 secs

As can be seen the H1000 has pulled it back by 150 mph, as the GTR starts to reache its limit on gearing. I'm not sure the H1000 would however beat the 0-100-0 time of 9.8 seconds (currently the world record - info here).

I do however know which I would rather have on a track, I'd go for the Ultima any day of the week (but would not say no to the H1000 on a empty airfield).

Regards

Scaff

 

[Kent]

Getting back on topic?

Or

Getting a lock on the thread?

You all decide.

Btw, I still think the skyline is a bit fast in this game, especially when left in stock 280hp form.

Of course, then again, the stock skyline is a beast in real life.

 

[Scaff]

By the way, if we're talking about 'cars that are just better', the LMP's should be noticed as well right? The Pescarolo C60 may be French, but it has Playstation ads all over the place and the tire life of that car (and the handling) is much better than other cars like the 'almighty' Audi R8. The Peugeot 905 is slower compared to the other Group C cars, while this car had much success (although they changed a lot of rules in 1992, but I don't know if capping the speed of the 905 was one of them. Then it would be a little bit explainable, but if not, the car has a disadvantage that cannot be right.

So my conclusion would be that the unfair advantages are also noticable in teh LMP/Group C class.

If I'm wrong somewhere, tell me

Back on topic Kent, as I just noticed this one.

The LMP/group C regulations have changed a lot over the years which does explain the 905.

Also with regard to the C60 being a better car than the 'almighty' Audi R8, again this is true.

The R8 is now a very old design and won this years LeMans on reliability and the experience of the team, on the track the C60 was a much faster car.

This years LMES series saw the R8 come third overall, behind a Zytec in second and in first place was the C60.

You also need to remember that success in endurance racing does not always go to the fastest car (see my point above about this years LeMans).

As far as I am concerned the LMP/Grouo C cars are well represented.

Another post mentions (and sorry I can't find it off-hand to quote) that the GT40 does not handle as well as they expected, again drivers have described it as a difficult car to drive , but very fast. I can clearly remember reading that the car had some much front-end lift at the end of the Mulsanne that applying a quarter turn of lock had no effect, good job thats not recreated in GT4.

Hope this helps pull things back in line a bit (& sorry if I helps move it away in the first place).

Regards

Scaff

 

[Sjenk]

Ah ok, yeah I'm not an expert about this, so I wasn't 100% sure when I said this. I was waiting for a reaction to see if I was right, but you've proven me wrong. Btw, that 'almighty' note was a joke actually

About the 905 part: that's what you get if every 905 fan says that the 905 was so legendary and so fast etc etc. I started to believe what these fans said

One thing: Did the Pescarolo lose in 2004 in the same way as 2005? (Faster but less reliable?) I don't know that exactly, but since the Pescarolo is the 2004 version and not the 2005 version, I would like to know this

And yeah, the most reliable car can win as well, the Mazda 787B is the best example for that

 

[Scaff]

Ah ok, yeah I'm not an expert about this, so I wasn't 100% sure when I said this. I was waiting for a reaction to see if I was right, but you've proven me wrong. Btw, that 'almighty' note was a joke actually

About the 905 part: that's what you get if every 905 fan says that the 905 was so legendary and so fast etc etc. I started to believe what these fans said

One thing: Did the Pescarolo lose in 2004 in the same way as 2005? (Faster but less reliable?) I don't know that exactly, but since the Pescarolo is the 2004 version and not the 2005 version, I would like to know this

And yeah, the most reliable car can win as well, the Mazda 787B is the best example for that

Don't worry about it; on the Pescarola side of things, the car has always been very quick (trap speeds from 2003 beat the R8), but reliability has been an issue.

I have just though of one group of cars that do perform (in my opinion) above the 'real' level, and thats just about any car from the early '70s and before.

While PD have done a good job on the soft and rolling suspension, the brakes are all wrong. Most of these cars were fitted with drum brake system (some rear drum, disc front) that were very prone to fade and in some cases very underspecified for the car.

Don't get me wrong, some of the older cars had very good braking systems, but his is an area in which technology has made huge leaps forward.

GT4 (and the whole series before it) seems to have given these cars modern braking systems, and while this can and is done in the real world, does give them a slight advantage over the 'original' cars.

Just a thought

Regards

Scaff

 

[13thmonkey]

There is a nice Gt4 error when it comes to the 787 B
if you drive Le Mans 24h you will have lost alot of hp in the progress
and with the added stress on your chassis won,t win another race

from Wiki:
Engine speed (RPM's) were deliberately kept low for longevity under the extreme stresses incurred during a 24-hour endurance race. The 787 was reported to have a redline around 9000rpm. However, interviews with Mazda's 787 race engineers revealed that the power of the quad-rotor increased dramatically above 9000rpm. One engineer stated that the car could develop more than 930hp with a redline around 10,500rpm. Engineers also commented that during the post-race inspection and tear-down of the quad-rotor engine they discovered that all aspects of the engine were still in excellent condition and could have run another 24-hour race.

Also i have a feeling the 787 B is treated slightly "better" in gt4 then the other Group C cars (this could be my own humble opinion though)

Another thing on Group C cars Why can you give a Toyota 88C-V nos and why is the Jaguar XJR9 deprived of it ?

 

[drifterboy]

this tread was 2 years old lol

READ THE LAST POST DATE BEFORE YOU POST

 

[Scaff]

this tread was 2 years old lol

READ THE LAST POST DATE BEFORE YOU POST

Please don't shout at people full stop, and certainly without good reason.

The post you have attacked here falls within the topic of this thread and as such 'resurrecting' the thread is the right thing to do. We would much rather that happened than have a hundred threads on the same subject with people having to re-post the same comments over and over again.

Could I also suggest that you leave the moderating to the staff, if you feel a post has been resurrected for no reason (and that is not the case here) then use the report button in future please.


Thanks

Scaff

 

[13thmonkey]

this tread was 2 years old lol

READ THE LAST POST DATE BEFORE YOU POST

Actually i don,t care about the actuality of a thread.
What i read was interesting enough to reply to it and add a question.
If the answer to that has been posted elsewhere, you could have pointed that out instead of shouting at me.

 

[Peterram430]

Well obviously the F1 car thingy with the long name is the best. Sorry if it is an obvious choise but it can win at every track apart from Test Course and Circuit de la Sarth without chicanes.

 

[drifterboy]

i was only joking, i wasnt meant to make him feel bad

sorry if i done anything wrong

 

[trulshaavard]

I don`t think anything has an advantage over anything...
It`s simply depends on how you tune and trim them...
I cant say I have any favourite cars, I like all of them, and I must say I do quite well with all of them too....

 

[Parnelli Bone]

I don`t think anything has an advantage over anything...
It`s simply depends on how you tune and trim them...
I cant say I have any favourite cars, I like all of them, and I must say I do quite well with all of them too....

I agree sort of. I'm generally a car-freak, yet I tend to not go for the ones everybody considers "the best". As to the original poster topic of this thread...

O.K. maybe I am crazy, but does it seem that pd has cars in the game that are just better? Cars that seem to have distinct advantages over other cars are nothing new to the gt series. I think the one car that comes to mind is the s2000 in gt3, it just plain outperformed other cars of the same class time and time again. In gt4 the car i see alot of people praising is the m3. Also, the gt40 seems to have something extra as well. I'm not talking numbers but pre- programmed winners.


Am i paranoid? Is pd trying to make us love certain car companies? Have i been playing too long?

I don't know if PD is trying to make us love certain car companies, but I know they are able to drive certain cars (in real-life) which the manufacturer loans to PD for awhile. Other cars, they never get to drive at all...they are simply modeled for the game on looks and maybe with a bit of research. This is done in a effort to keep the game more balanced with cars that aren't just Japanese; but it leads to some odd choices in GT4. I mean, it seems really odd to me that the 1988 Volvo wagon sits prominently in the game instead of one of the 1800 sports cars from the '60s. then again, check out this link

http://wwwrsphysse.anu.edu.au/~amh110/volvo_racing.htm

But certainly, the Honda S2000 is one many folks over at PD have driven; some PD employees probly even own S2000s in real-life. Since Polyphony Digital is in Japan, many of the cars they get to test-drive will happen to be Japanese, and so follows the logic that these cars get a "better" shot in the game. But I don't know if I totally agree with this blanket-statement or not, yet.

 

[Skid Mark 33]

Yeah, I'm sure they made the VW Golf GTI '01 faster than it really is. I have watched it drag race a Rover 25, which is a small family car by the way, and it beat it. And to humilate the Golf even more it was the lowest spec Rover 25 with an automatic gearbox!

Edit: It was on a show called Top Gear. Anyone else who lives in England should know what I'm talking about!