cars that are just better

[Boundary Layer]

Indeed. 👍

Man, you are just on-point today Swift.
What did you eat for breakfast, I've gotta get me some of that.

translation:
what happened to all the regular dribble that you normally post?

ya. I'm onboard with Kent's comments. For the most part, the dominant cars in GT4 are dominant b/c they're just that good in real life. Sure, maybe the R34 is a bit too good... maybe the 05 350Z has a bit too much understeer.... but for the most part, cars tend to slot into place right where i'd expect them to be relative to one another.


One that I've found to be a little curious is the Mazda Kusabi concept. Admittedly I don't spend a lot of time in FF's (too hard to drift ) - but when I used it on my race game briefly I found that little thing to be lightning quick and incredibly neutral steering for a stock FF.

 

[Swift]

Indeed. 👍

Man, you are just on-point today Swift.
What did you eat for breakfast, I've gotta get me some of that.

Thanks. And French Toast sticks.

translation:
what happened to all the regular dribble that you normally post?

Man, that's just cold. Great stuff bud!

 

[R_Riders]

R Riders,
I don't see how you disagreed with me regarding the Z06 or the M cars.

I said they were out of place on this list because they were supposed to be good cars in

real life, hence, being good cars in GT would only be fitting.

Also, regarding the Z06 in comparison to the competition...
Refference the .de databases and you will see that the Z06 is quite a way behind the M3 GTR

and only a bit ahead of the regular M3.

So really, is it that fast compared to the competition?

My own testing on the ring with S3 tires has shown the regular M3 at 7'13.0 and the Z06 at

7'09.
That sounds pretty good to me but not all that great considering the M3 GTR is capable of

dropping into the 6'50s without too much trouble.

In any case, my point is that I don't see how the Z06 is one of the "pre-programed" winners

in GT4.

Well, first off, when I actually tried to put in this reply, for some reason I got an error

message, I come back a few hours later to find it actually went thru.

Okay...second off...

Something told me to double think about saying that, even though I did.

and third off...

Well, again, I really only tested these cars on road spec tires on a few tracks. Not yet the

nurburgring not out of skill (or there lack of) becuase I'm rather scrapped for time (yes it's pathetic, but I've got other things, much as I enjoy going around it, I can go 8 or 9 laps and realize I've just lost a lot of time...). What about it's records on other tracks?

For me, I've found though on other tracks like Suzuka and Laguna seca that the M3 (standard, CSL or GTR) and the Z06 to be in similar times, same for the NSX-R, only really so much on again road tires. I haven't yet tried so much on racing tires, although something tells me that's no excluse.

What I'm trying to say is, I don't see it as a pre-programmed winnder, but I do see it as a good car, or at the least a potential moster, if it's not so much in the game as it actually is in reality by other driver accounts, then I guess you're right.

If I was confused about anything, I got the impression you were saying it wasn't a good car,

which I felt to the contrary. I felt hestant to say much because well again, although I've driven it a lot stock on N2 and N3 spec tires, not a lot on sports or racing tires, and not a whole lot on other cars to the point of remembering such (depiste using a lot of summer time on GT4, the only cars I have the best retaining memmories are the Z06, NSX-R and M3 (standard, CSL and GTR), and the M5).

Funny, I ended up getting into a spot I didn't want to get into, maybe not.

I can't help but feel like again, I'm forgetting somethign vital... no wonder I stay silent

anyway, maybe not, hope this clears up some confusion.

Till later.

 

[Sjenk]

By the way, if we're talking about 'cars that are just better', the LMP's should be noticed as well right? The Pescarolo C60 may be French, but it has Playstation ads all over the place and the tire life of that car (and the handling) is much better than other cars like the 'almighty' Audi R8. The Peugeot 905 is slower compared to the other Group C cars, while this car had much success (although they changed a lot of rules in 1992, but I don't know if capping the speed of the 905 was one of them. Then it would be a little bit explainable, but if not, the car has a disadvantage that cannot be right.

So my conclusion would be that the unfair advantages are also noticable in teh LMP/Group C class.

If I'm wrong somewhere, tell me

 

[Master_Yoda]

well in real life, corvettes handling system just seems to be a bit dull to me, like the time when i test drove a C6 it's seems to not be able to get around quit as quick as a NSX, or G35, or most other sport cars in the 40-70k$ range

 

[Kent]

well in real life, corvettes handling system just seems to be a bit dull to me, like the time when i test drove a C6 it's seems to not be able to get around quit as quick as a NSX, or G35, or most other sport cars in the 40-70k$ range

So you're saying that in real life you have driven a G35, a C6, and a NSX?

 

[Master_Yoda]

So you're saying that in real life you have driven a G35, a C6, and a NSX?

no, sorry for the confusion, i went to a chevy dealer once and test drove a C6, it felt kinda chunky, but i know for a fact that NSX, G35 and many cars in the price range i said, can handle alot better then a C6, this was towards a previous coment about a 6 owning everything in GT4 wich i think it can't mainly because i hate vettes

 

[B_B_B]

a z06 c6 vette could in fact it is the fastest production car to make a lap around the the famed 'ring motor trend had a blurb about it when i was skimming through the other day

 

[Master_Yoda]

a z06 c6 vette could in fact it is the fastest production car to make a lap around the the famed 'ring motor trend had a blurb about it when i was skimming through the other day

unless you can give me evidence i just some how don't belive it....

 

[Wolfe]

Let's not turn this into another "Japanese Cars Get an Unfair Advantage in GT4" Thread...

Was that directed at me? 'Cause I was just talking about tuning, like Kent has already explained...

a z06 c6 vette could in fact it is the fastest production car to make a lap around the the famed 'ring motor trend had a blurb about it when i was skimming through the other day

I take it you've never heard of the Porsche Carrera GT, or a little company called Radical...?

 

[JTSnooks]

Well, not THE fastest. It ran a 7'42.XXX lap on production street tires. The Porsche Carerra GT is the only production car to run faster as far as I know. A 7'42 is faster than any ferrari, Lamborghini, Viper, or whatever. At least in stock production form. And C&D just ran a 3.3 second 0-60 time in the new Z06...the thing is insanely fast. As for proof, I haven't been able to find any online, but it was definitely in Motor Trend a couple months ago.

As for saying that the handling is "chunky", that's often the case when driving cars far below their maximum performance levels. With such huge steamroller tires on the back to handle all the torque, I wouldn't be surprised if it felt a little heavy at regular speeds, especially compared to something as light as an NSX or something like the G35 which (I think) has a shorter wheelbase. The Vette actually has a fairly long wheelbase, which would make it seem less throwable.

 

[Wolfe]

Well, not THE fastest. It ran a 7'42.XXX lap on production street tires. The Porsche Carerra GT is the only production car to run faster as far as I know. A 7'42 is faster than any ferrari, Lamborghini, Viper, or whatever. At least in stock production form. And C&D just ran a 3.3 second 0-60 time in the new Z06...the thing is insanely fast. As for proof, I haven't been able to find any online, but it was definitely in Motor Trend a couple months ago.

As for saying that the handling is "chunky", that's often the case when driving cars far below their maximum performance levels. With such huge steamroller tires on the back to handle all the torque, I wouldn't be surprised if it felt a little heavy at regular speeds, especially compared to something as light as an NSX or something like the G35 which (I think) has a shorter wheelbase. The Vette actually has a fairly long wheelbase, which would make it seem less throwable.

I don't know about 3.3, but in the October 2005 issue of C&D it was 3.6 sec.

Sorry if it seemed like I was trying to downplay the Z06 -- it's an excellent car. Just not the fastest production car ever. Not that the Carrera GT is much of a bargain next to a Z06...

 

[Dave_George]

Well, not THE fastest. It ran a 7'42.XXX lap on production street tires. The Porsche Carerra GT is the only production car to run faster as far as I know. A 7'42 is faster than any ferrari, Lamborghini, Viper, or whatever. At least in stock production form. And C&D just ran a 3.3 second 0-60 time in the new Z06...the thing is insanely fast. As for proof, I haven't been able to find any online, but it was definitely in Motor Trend a couple months ago.

As for saying that the handling is "chunky", that's often the case when driving cars far below their maximum performance levels. With such huge steamroller tires on the back to handle all the torque, I wouldn't be surprised if it felt a little heavy at regular speeds, especially compared to something as light as an NSX or something like the G35 which (I think) has a shorter wheelbase. The Vette actually has a fairly long wheelbase, which would make it seem less throwable.

The current lap record for a road legal production car is 6'55 by a Radical SR8!!

They beat the previous effort by Donkervoort by over 20 seconds...which again was very fast, taking the road legal thing to the extreme here but they are legal..

Regarding cars having advantages in GT4 over others i just cant see it.
With all the passion and engineering that has gone into GT4 i cant see PD blatantly making some cars better than others.

I always compare cars on N2 and N3 tyres (Scaff has done a great job of providing evidence that these are closest to real tyres) and i dont find any evidence that some cars are unrealistically better than others.

Take the Nissan Skyline, yes it can be tuned to silly power levels of 700-800+ bhp, however, in reality the Skyline engine and chassis can take this amount of power quite reliably as has been proven by countless tuners over the world, with its extremely clever 4WD system i dont doubt its probably fair to assume its fairly easy to drive quite quickly for most people...

I think that some cars respond better and are ultimatly quicker in Gt4 is to be expected, in reality the Skylines, Nsx's Corvettes and M3's have been used for racing because the standard car is so good, i think thats what is being seen in GT4, the good cars will always shine and highlight the bad ones.

I for one think all things being equal there is no bias towards certain cars.
I think the truly polished cars should and will be easier to drive fast and thus...
I think some respond better to our driving abilities

Dave

 

[Scaff]

Even the Zonda pick seemed wrong since the Zonda's brakes in GT4 (as well as gt3) are horrible!

Not tried a Zonda in GT4 yet (don't ask why because I'm not quite sure why), but I do have full braking figures (real world) for a Zonda C12S.

The figures are from the annual Autocar 0-100-0 tests, so I will put the C12S through the same runs as I did with the Ford GT, see what we get.

OK, I've subjected the Zonda C12S 7.3 '02 to the Autocar test and I will saw with confidence that the car has no problem at all with stright line braking. In fact the figures are some of the closest to 'real' that I have tested.

The full results can be found here

I can only conclude that the Zonda suffers from the Ford GT syndrome, in that it has race car levels of acceleration and speed, which leads to very high corner approach speeds. Far higher than one would normally expect.

I have to say from my first drives of the car is lovely, very, very fast and I have to say I found the brakes to be excellent. Lovely handling as well.

Well, not THE fastest. It ran a 7'42.XXX lap on production street tires. The Porsche Carerra GT is the only production car to run faster as far as I know. A 7'42 is faster than any ferrari, Lamborghini, Viper, or whatever. At least in stock production form. And C&D just ran a 3.3 second 0-60 time in the new Z06...the thing is insanely fast. As for proof, I haven't been able to find any online, but it was definitely in Motor Trend a couple months ago.

As for saying that the handling is "chunky", that's often the case when driving cars far below their maximum performance levels. With such huge steamroller tires on the back to handle all the torque, I wouldn't be surprised if it felt a little heavy at regular speeds, especially compared to something as light as an NSX or something like the G35 which (I think) has a shorter wheelbase. The Vette actually has a fairly long wheelbase, which would make it seem less throwable.

The Radical SR8 posted a time of six minutes and 55 seconds, while it does push some peoples definition of road legal production car, it is just that a road legal (the car used was registered and road legal) standard production car.

Info here

Thats not to take away form the Z06 C6's time, which as you say is quite simply stunning.


Regards

Scaff

 

[Dave_George]

​

OK, I've subjected the Zonda C12S 7.3 '02 to the Autocar test and I will saw with confidence that the car has no problem at all with stright line braking. In fact the figures are some of the closest to 'real' that I have tested.

The full results can be found here

I can only conclude that the Zonda suffers from the Ford GT syndrome, in that it has race car levels of acceleration and speed, which leads to very high corner approach speeds. Far higher than one would normally expect.

I have to say from my first drives of the car is lovely, very, very fast and I have to say I found the brakes to be excellent. Lovely handling as well.





The Radical SR8 posted a time of six minutes and 55 seconds, while it does push some peoples definition of road legal production car, it is just that a road legal (the car used was registered and road legal) standard production car.

Info here

Thats not to take away form the Z06 C6's time, which as you say is quite simply stunning.


Regards

Scaff

Once again an excellent job on the Zonda write up Scaff 👍

I have to agree with the N3's, they seem to consistently be the "closest to what i think the cars would be like in reality" tyres for me.

Dave

 

[Sum1s2pid]

hard to believe the SR8 is road-legal, though even just barely... very slick-looking ride... 👍

 

[Scaff]

Once again an excellent job on the Zonda write up Scaff 👍

I have to agree with the N3's, they seem to consistently be the "closest to what i think the cars would be like in reality" tyres for me.

Dave

Thanks Dave, glad you enjoyed it.

I tend to use either N2 or N3 tyres as 'real' ones, depending on the car in question.

If the car is normally fitted with fairly normal tyres I go for N2, if its fitted with road/track spec tyres (such as the standard tyres on an M3 CSL) I go for N3.

hard to believe the SR8 is road-legal, though even just barely... very slick-looking ride... 👍

Yep it is hard to believe the SR8 is road-legal, very little as extreme as it ever gets on the road. I've seen one (well Ok it was an SR3) on the road in the UK and I must confess it scared the hell out of me as it went past, well worth it.

Regards

Scaff

 

[niky]

Thanks for the Zonda test... Scaff... damn, missed most of the thread... I was about to give Kent the same answer... the apparent braking problems on the Zonda are due merely to "Ford GT syndrome".

And re: Celica, it is indeed a good car, but given that the TRD Celica comes stock with a sports suspension, wider tires, a sports clutch and a lightened flywheel, that ought to be a given. But if you're talking regular Celicas, then, I'll give that to you.

I've driven quite a number of Skylines in comparison to other cars. Stock vs. stock, they aren't RuF or Corvette killers, but they are amazingly quick for their heft. Of course, tuned, they're absolute monsters.

That's what marks "cars that are just better". They outperform their spec-sheets. Also, there's a bit of luck involved in how the handling balance interacts with the GT4 physics engine. Some of my previous favorite cars got the short end of the stick in that regard. Some winners include Kent's Celica and the Z06 (feels more neutral in this version, I think...) Some losers include the Tuscan Speed 6 (shame...) and the Lotus Esprit (but not so badly, it's almost as nice as in 3) and the Elise (because GT4 models the Elise's reaction to bumps and weight transfer much better).

 

[Scaff]

Thanks for the Zonda test... Scaff... damn, missed most of the thread... I was about to give Kent the same answer... the apparent braking problems on the Zonda are due merely to "Ford GT syndrome".

And re: Celica, it is indeed a good car, but given that the TRD Celica comes stock with a sports suspension, wider tires, a sports clutch and a lightened flywheel, that ought to be a given. But if you're talking regular Celicas, then, I'll give that to you.

I've driven quite a number of Skylines in comparison to other cars. Stock vs. stock, they aren't RuF or Corvette killers, but they are amazingly quick for their heft. Of course, tuned, they're absolute monsters.

That's what marks "cars that are just better". They outperform their spec-sheets. Also, there's a bit of luck involved in how the handling balance interacts with the GT4 physics engine. Some of my previous favorite cars got the short end of the stick in that regard. Some winners include Kent's Celica and the Z06 (feels more neutral in this version, I think...) Some losers include the Tuscan Speed 6 (shame...) and the Lotus Esprit (but not so badly, it's almost as nice as in 3) and the Elise (because GT4 models the Elise's reaction to bumps and weight transfer much better).

Thanks Niky.

I would agree that the Elise is much better in Gt4 yhan in previous versions of the game, with the Tuscan I actual think they have it right now. It was just to easy to drive on the limit in earlier games, the real deal is a car that will try to kill you on the limit (the Tamora was always rated as the first user-friendly TVR- and then only when compared to other TVRs), so much better in GT4.

Regards

Scaff

 

[niky]

Yup, they've got them right... but now you actually have to use some skill to drive them.

 

[Scaff]

Yup, they've got them right... but now you actually have to use some skill to drive them.

Could not agree more, and its far more fun now. 👍

Regards

Scaff

 

[Sum1s2pid]

i'm wondering if perhaps the '01 Clio Renault Sport V6 24V and '03 Phase 2 would be cars that fall under this catagory... i've read numerous posts praising how they have performed much better than expected... track-time in this car (i'm partial to the '01 in looks/performance) mildly tuned--or even stock--provide blistering times... regardless of it having healthy HP and being MR, this little box just flat drives "better" than it should... it drifts, point and shoots, grips, and squirts through technical sections with relative ease...

they're such fun little cars that i had to pick up all colors of Sport Trophy Race Cars--even the PINK #11...

 

[Scaff]

i'm wondering if perhaps the '01 Clio Renault Sport V6 24V and '03 Phase 2 would be cars that fall under this catagory... i've read numerous posts praising how they have performed much better than expected... track-time in this car (i'm partial to the '01 in looks/performance) mildly tuned--or even stock--provide blistering times... regardless of it having healthy HP and being MR, this little box just flat drives "better" than it should... it drifts, point and shoots, grips, and squirts through technical sections with relative ease...

they're such fun little cars that i had to pick up all colors of Sport Trophy Race Cars--even the PINK #11...

I've driven both for real and trust me they are great little cars.

Regards

Scaff

 

[B_B_B]

I take it you've never heard of the Porsche Carrera GT, or a little company called Radical...?

i wouldnt call the radical a producion car anyways its more of a kit car carr since you can buy them unfinsihed and the one did run that killer 6.55 had tons of mods nice car though

 

[Scaff]

i wouldnt call the radical a producion car anyways its more of a kit car carr since you can buy them unfinsihed and the one did run that killer 6.55 had tons of mods nice car though

Most Radical SR8's (like the SR3 and SR4 before it) are bought as complete cars, very few, by Radicals own admission, are sold as kits. The SR8 is recognised as a series production car.

The car that ran at the 'ring was a standard SR8 with the road pack on it, the road pack actually adds weight to the car, as it carries additional lights, wiring looms for the lights, etc. Nothing about the car was unavailable to any customer who orders one, the car was running on UK registration plates and on road legal tyres.

Regards Scaff

 

[B_B_B]

i still dont consider it a "street" car but thats just my opinion really its like superformance and their kit car "cobras" you got enough money you can order the biggest baddest 1 available not the basic kit most people buy

 

[Scaff]

i still dont consider it a "street" car but thats just my opinion really its like superformance and their kit car "cobras" you got enough money you can order the biggest baddest 1 available not the basic kit most people buy

I can well understand your point of view on this, very few Radicals get registered for the road, but they can and do. Remember the Dauer 962 was a Porsche 962 Le Mans car that was made road legal, far more extreme than a Radical.

Which leads me onto the second point, as most Radicals sold are track day only cars, the owners tend to be quite well off. You've got to be able to afford to store it, have a trailer for it and a tow car; given all that I would say that most would have the money for more than a basic cooking version.

A quick look at the used cars that Radical themselves have for sale seems to back this up, even if you ignore the factory run cars.

My point in all of this is that the Radical is still a production series car, that can be supplied in road legal trim. I may have only seen one Radical on the road (a hell of a lot more at the track), but thats still more than the number of Carrera GTs I've seen on the road.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Kent]

Well that's cool with me.

Of course, I still think the brakes are kinda pooey since (IMO) they should be matched to the in-game car's abilities.

Even if it is just like a GT, I find that the car should slow down as fast as it speeds up.
Oh well.
I suppose I will just have to accept that the brakes are "good."

I've gotta ask a question though...

When you all say N2/N3 tires are closest to real life, are you talking track times or are you talking handling?

If you mean track times I can agree.
However, if you're talking handling then I will have to disagree... This is disregarding tech stats like acceleration, lateral Gs, etc etc... I'm talking about just the feel of the car.

With that in mind, I don't think the N tires are the closest to the way things feel.
I've driven a few of the cars in the game and every time I get on N tires they seem to be just a bit more drifty than the real life counter-parts.

It's like I told small_fryz a few weeks back when the NRS was doing a Miata... He said the N tires were the closest to reality.
I responded saying that "if the miata drifted in real life the way this thing drifts then the miata would be too dangerous for the road."

I still feel that way, and after attacking the ring with N tires on FF cars like the Honda Integra, I am even more convinced that the N tires produce the most realistic simulation based on times and numbers, but in terms of "feel" they are lacking.

Keep in mind that I live in Louisiana, so 90+ mph is a daily interstate deal for me (approximately 83mph avg. for 30+ miles 5 days a week).
(this also includes 60-70+ mph entrance and exit ramps)

What do you all think?
I know it's off subject but I've just gotta know.
Maybe Scaff,
would you mind writing me a PM explaining how you feel?
In any case, thanks and regards...
-Kent

 

[B_B_B]

Well that's cool with me.

Of course, I still think the brakes are kinda pooey since (IMO) they should be matched to the in-game car's abilities.

Even if it is just like a GT, I find that the car should slow down as fast as it speeds up.
Oh well.
I suppose I will just have to accept that the brakes are "good."

I've gotta ask a question though...

When you all say N2/N3 tires are closest to real life, are you talking track times or are you talking handling?

If you mean track times I can agree.
However, if you're talking handling then I will have to disagree... This is disregarding tech stats like acceleration, lateral Gs, etc etc... I'm talking about just the feel of the car.

With that in mind, I don't think the N tires are the closest to the way things feel.
I've driven a few of the cars in the game and every time I get on N tires they seem to be just a bit more drifty than the real life counter-parts.

It's like I told small_fryz a few weeks back when the NRS was doing a Miata... He said the N tires were the closest to reality.
I responded saying that "if the miata drifted in real life the way this thing drifts then the miata would be too dangerous for the road."

I still feel that way, and after attacking the ring with N tires on FF cars like the Honda Integra, I am even more convinced that the N tires produce the most realistic simulation based on times and numbers, but in terms of "feel" they are lacking.

Keep in mind that I live in Louisiana, so 90+ mph is a daily interstate deal for me (approximately 83mph avg. for 30+ miles 5 days a week).
(this also includes 60-70+ mph entrance and exit ramps)

What do you all think?
I know it's off subject but I've just gotta know.
Maybe Scaff,
would you mind writing me a PM explaining how you feel?
In any case, thanks and regards...
-Kent

i personally think that the N tires are more based towards cheapie Wall Mart "special" type tires hard as a rock compound as opposed to performance street tires

I can well understand your point of view on this, very few Radicals get registered for the road, but they can and do. Remember the Dauer 962 was a Porsche 962 Le Mans car that was made road legal, far more extreme than a Radical.

Regards

Scaff

thats kind of like comparing to say a calaway corvette with with a 427 twin turbo
SB under the hood
it might be better to comapre to say the way you can get superformace "cobra" kit cars mild to wild that sort of thing

if your understanding the point the point im getting at

 

[Scaff]

What do you all think?
I know it's off subject but I've just gotta know.
Maybe Scaff,
would you mind writing me a PM explaining how you feel?
In any case, thanks and regards...
-Kent

PM sent 👍

Scaff