An open letter to those that are better.

[Samus]

Being slower does not mean you have to let someone pass. You have to defend cleanly and fairly, yes, but you're perfectly entitled to defend. There are plenty of cases in real motorsport of that happening. Senna holding off Mansell at Monaco in 1992 is one well-known example. Senna placed his car in all the right places to make sure Mansell couldn't pass, including the "middle lane".



Another is 2005 San Marino, Schumacher trying to pass Alonso.



Yes there are some occasions in racing where it makes sense to let a faster car through without much fight, but not the last few laps, or a short sprint.

 

[cjsrt4]

I'm fully aware of the rules of motorsport. But that's just another example of an entire grid full of professionals with experience. I'm also not always super clear on making my point either. If you're in the top 4 and the pack is close, I would expect to see some competitive defense when it comes to the race. Especially towards the end of the race. Back-mid to mid of the field, I don't really see the need to be aggressively blocking to the point where I have to pump the brakes to avoid contact. Especially on a 4 lap race that's 10 minutes long.

 

[jrbabbitt]

You start a race in 4th place. The race starts and your pushing hard into that first turn. Then all of a sudden, someone from the very back takes you out of the race. Now you're in 11th place. You're not mad about what happened, but you know you need to really make up some lost time. You have no chance of winning, but you're going to push to get the best position you can. You pass a few cars that are extremely slow or they just missed their brake point and went off track. You're now behind the 8th place car and it didn't take you long to catch him. You go for a pass on the inside but he cuts you off. Trying to avoid contact, you back off and get behind him. A few corners later, you try again and get the same result. The person claims they are defending their position, but it's obviously not the case.

You have been watching every race I try....

 

[DJShadesUK]

I will tell you with 100% certainty, that I have never sent someone into the dirt in this game.

I'm going to assume you've never done anything like that because you seem to be the whole sim racing package.

Assume what you like, but I don't pretend to be some all sweetness and light angel.

Driving aggressive by my definition, is just following closer and putting more pressure on the car in front of me, waiting for them to make a mistake. It doesn't always work, but it's come in handy plenty of times.

Driving heavily aggressive by my definition is going for that pass on someone who's being overly defensive, or just simply not paying attention to other drivers and following the suggestive line.

Ahh, the joys of having your own definitions of "aggressive" and "heavily aggressive", which nobody else could possibly know, but handily help you to justify any and all actions on your part if only to yourself. You're ten-a-penny fella.

I have multiple ways a dealing with that type of racer.

I have no doubt whatsoever that you do, all with your get-out-of-jail guilt-free definitions on standby.

I've backed off and given them space, caught them again rinse and repeat.

Which is part of racing, if you can't accept that a slower driver may have enough chops to keep you behind him/her and you don't have enough chops to analyse their actions and intelligently engineer a situation where you can pass them then maybe, just maybe, there is more to racing than hotlapping and you ain't quite as good as you seem to think you are?

You can judge me all you want bud. Even give yourself a pat on the back for thinking you know me.

Okay, I will.

You forget that there are many different types of video game players. Ranging from casual to hardcore.

One of the great things about driving games/sims is that, unlike many other game genres, it is directly analogous to the real-world experience. Now in that real world, there's a thing, you may have heard of, called Pro-Am races. This is short for Professional and Amateur, the hardcore and casual of the IRL world if you will. During these races there is a mixture of Pro and Am drivers, all on the track at the same time. Imagine that, the "casual" and the "hardcore" all playing nicely together? Do you think a Pro driver gets their panties in a bunch about an Am driver, racing for position, holding them up by whatever legal means necessary? Nope. Even if the defensive efforts aren't outright acknowledged they'll always, if begrudingly, earn a certain amount of respect from the Pro for doing what they needed to do and not rolling over and having . That is sportsmanship, that is a racer, not your "I give them 3 or 4 corners" nonsense.

Telling me that I don't deserve to play in a lobby because I don't care if I podium in an arcade racing game is pure nonsense.

I specifically didn't say that. At all. In the slightest. Suggesting I did is indicative of your relationship with truth and honesty, both off and on track, and thus concludes our interaction.

 

[cjsrt4]

Assume what you like, but I don't pretend to be some all sweetness and light angel.

Yeah that sounds just like me. Saying I avoid contact at all costs is just ridiculous!

Ahh, the joys of having your own definitions of "aggressive" and "heavily aggressive", which nobody else could possibly know, but handily help you to justify any and all actions on your part if only to yourself. You're ten-a-penny fella.

Well yes. Considering I'm more of the casual racer that couldn't care less about actually winning the race, our definitions of both words are most likely different when talking about online racing.

Which is part of racing, if you can't accept that a slower driver may have enough chops to keep you behind him/her and you don't have enough chops to analyse their actions and intelligently engineer a situation where you can pass them then maybe, just maybe, there is more to racing than hotlapping and you ain't quite as good as you seem to think you are?

I apologize if I gave you the impression that I think I'm some super fast top 1% GT7 racer. Since you seem to know everything else about me, I figured you would have understood that isn't the case. Are there people that are slower than me in GT7? Absolutely. Are there people much faster? Yup.

Okay, I will.

Send me your address and I'll mail you a gold star for your awesomeness!

Then you're not really racing, are you? You're just hot-lapping with others on the track. Go do a time trial and stop occupying a slot which could be occupied by someone who actually wants to race.

Hmm...

One of the great things about driving games/sims is that, unlike many other game genres, it is directly analogous to the real-world experience. Now in that real world, there's a thing, you may have heard of, called Pro-Am races. This is short for Professional and Amateur, the hardcore and casual of the IRL world if you will. During these races there is a mixture of Pro and Am drivers, all on the track at the same time. Imagine that, the "casual" and the "hardcore" all playing nicely together? Do you think a Pro driver gets their panties in a bunch about an Am driver, racing for position, holding them up by whatever legal means necessary? Nope. Even if the defensive efforts aren't outright acknowledged they'll always, if begrudingly, earn a certain amount of respect from the Pro for doing what they needed to do and not rolling over and having . That is sportsmanship, that is a racer, not your "I give them 3 or 4 corners" nonsense.

Yes, because in the real world you can hit a wall at 100+ and continue the race like nothing happened. Just like the real world and playing COD you can take 10 rounds to the head, run away so you can gain your health back and then continue to play.

I think you're forgetting that there are numerous videos and instances of professional racers becoming impatient and wrecking themselves and the car they were trying to pass, because of the very topic we are discussing. So please stop acting like every time people are on the race track, nothing happens. Unless your on that race track because again, you're just that good in any situation and have all the answers.

 

[BigSarj]

GT...

Being slower does not mean you have to let someone pass. You have to defend cleanly and fairly, yes, but you're perfectly entitled to defend. There are plenty of cases in real motorsport of that happening. Senna holding off Mansell at Monaco in 1992 is one well-known example. Senna placed his car in all the right places to make sure Mansell couldn't pass, including the "middle lane".



Another is 2005 San Marino, Schumacher trying to pass Alonso.



Yes there are some occasions in racing where it makes sense to let a faster car through without much fight, but not the last few laps, or a short sprint.

LOL is Liberty Media watching this site? Those videos have already been taken down.

 

[Samus]

GT...
LOL is Liberty Media watching this site? Those videos have already been taken down.

Not taken down, they're on the official channel. They just don't let them be viewed embedded.

 

[Imari]

Some tracks are only designed for 2 cars side by side, and when some ones in the middle of that track, you have 2 options. Go off track to pass or make contact.

I think we see the problem here. You're not aware of the magical third option.

Wait.

Even with a willing opponent you can't just pass anywhere on the track. Assuming I want to let someone past, I'm not just pulling over immediately to let them. I want to lose the least time possible for me, and I want to do it somewhere that there's a minimum chance of something going wrong. Take your Bathurst example, pulling over to let someone past in the Esses is asking for trouble. I'm gonna wait until Conrod Straight to pull off-line, and I'll maybe help them with a little lift or braking early if I have to.

You assume that in telling you that it's easy to get past a slow opponent I'm insinuating that you should be able to do it at any point on the track. Most people would be aware that even when passing a slow car there's the implication that you wait for a place where you can do it safely. There's some places and corners where a pass is basically never safe, but there's no tracks in the game that have zero safe places to pass. Bathurst is a hard track to overtake on, and even it has three solid places to overtake and a bunch more if you're much faster or if the opponent makes a mistake. If someone is legitimately significantly slower than you, you can get a pass on them inside a single lap. Calm your raging ego at the injustice that you're not further up the track, and wait for your moment.

Patience is a skill that a good racing driver must posses.

Admitting you're beat and letting someone else who is faster get by to potentially win, is taking the high ground.

Lol. Except that you haven't beaten them. If you had, you wouldn't need them to pull over for you.

Sometimes conceding is a kind thing to do, but you are not owed a concession from people you couldn't get past. For all they know you're about to go off at the next corner because you're vibrating with rage.

As much as it's possible to pressure people in front of you to make a mistake, it's also possible to pressure people behind you. Some people who are quick on an empty track drive really, really poorly when they're in a pack or under pressure. You can only get better at this by practicing driving under pressure.

If you're in the top 4 and the pack is close, I would expect to see some competitive defense when it comes to the race. Especially towards the end of the race. Back-mid to mid of the field, I don't really see the need to be aggressively blocking to the point where I have to pump the brakes to avoid contact. Especially on a 4 lap race that's 10 minutes long.

If they shouldn't be worried about losing the position, why are you concerned about gaining it?

Well yes. Considering I'm more of the casual racer that couldn't care less about actually winning the race, our definitions of both words are most likely different when talking about online racing.

And now you don't even care about winning? Which is it? Do you care about positions and finishing or don't you?

 

[Techlet]

He cares about winning this argument more than winning online races.

 

[GTboyz]

Wait.

This, can't count how many times waiting actually saves me.

 

[kilesa4568]

Track position is king but you've got to be sensible about who you choose to battle and when you need to consolidate. Them passing you is likely inevitable when you defend properly as is contact if you don't but you'll both lose time till it's sorted itself out. With the strong draft, it's in your favour to let them pass, anyway.

Late in the race, make them work for it with hard but fair defending.

 

[CTRL Garage]

Late in the race, make them work for it with hard but fair defending.

Why late in the race, why not any other time in the race? car in front is entitled to any strategy they desire regardless of the outcome and perceived "sensibility" of said strategy

 

[Imari]

Why late in the race, why not any other time in the race? car in front is entitled to any strategy they desire regardless of the outcome and perceived "sensibility" of said strategy

There's an altered risk/reward later in the race. With an indeterminate amount of laps to go, if they're legitimately faster than you then you can assume that they'll get past eventually either through them making a great move or you making a mistake. In that case it's not a great plan to fight for that position specifically, you want to do whatever will result in the lowest overall race time for you because that gives you the best chance of a high finish (given that all sorts of other incidents might happen later in the race which shake up the positions).

With only a small number (or one) laps to go, you may have a reasonable expectation of being able to prevent this person from passing even though they're faster. Even if someone is a second a lap faster, with good defence you have a reasonable chance of holding them up for a lap or two. They have a limited amount of time in which to accomplish a somewhat difficult task, and so while you might not choose to defend with ten or twenty laps left you might choose to do so with two in otherwise identical circumstances.

Anyone can employ any strategy they want at any time, and one could absolutely choose to defend with twenty laps left but it's fairly common for people to be significantly more defensive (and aggressive) in the later stages of the race where there's less variability and you can see clearly what you will gain/lose by doing so.

 

[24HuresdeLoL]

cough...PGMotorsport...cough

 

[CTRL Garage]

In that case it's not a great plan to fight for that position specifically, you want to do whatever will result in the lowest overall race time for you because that gives you the best chance of a high finish (given that all sorts of other incidents might happen later in the race which shake up the positions).

Not a great plan if there's no other incidents for that specific person later on it the race, what if no incidents happen. if they fought or defended the position early on they might of finished a race a bit higher at the end.

With only a small number (or one) laps to go, you may have a reasonable expectation of being able to prevent this person from passing even though they're faster. Even if someone is a second a lap faster, with good defence you have a reasonable chance of holding them up for a lap or two. They have a limited amount of time in which to accomplish a somewhat difficult task, and so while you might not choose to defend with ten or twenty laps left you might choose to do so with two in otherwise identical circumstances.

Holding people up for a lap or two at the beginning can be beneficial to your end race result, it could also harm your end result.
The car in front, regardless of pace is entitled to choose either option and either option is perfectly fine in motorsports.

This notion that you should only fight for a position towards the end of a race is nonsense,

Anyone can employ any strategy they want at any time, and one could absolutely choose to defend with twenty laps left

Yes completely agree.

 

[Imari]

Not a great plan if there's no other incidents for that specific person later on it the race, what if no incidents happen. if they fought or defended the position early on they might of finished a race a bit higher at the end.

Right. That's why it's risk/reward, and why any decision in racing is risk/reward. It's not a clear cut decision, and depending on what happens later whatever you do may or may not have been the right decision. You're playing what you think the probabilities are for a favourable outcome for you.

As the person ahead, there isn't an objectively wrong choice there. Your assessment of the other players will dictate your choice. How likely are they to crash if you just let them go? How likely are they to crash if you defend? How likely are they to take you out with them, intentionally or not?

As most of us aren't playing at a particularly high level, good results can often be had simply by playing safe and finishing the race cleanly. At low and medium skill levels, opponents can often be trusted to ruin their own races if given enough time and their lack of good car control means that extended wheel-to-wheel racing is especially dangerous. If you're confident in your own ability to keep it on the track, in such situations the probabilities can favour just not engaging in serious defence.

Holding people up for a lap or two at the beginning can be beneficial to your end race result, it could also harm your end result.
The car in front, regardless of pace is entitled to choose either option and either option is perfectly fine in motorsports.

This notion that you should only fight for a position towards the end of a race is nonsense,

Right, it's risk/reward. You can't know when you make the decision what the ultimate outcome will be. It may benefit or harm your result. That's the point in making a considered decision with the information available, and it can and should change from race to race.

It's not nonsense. It's a valid strategy that I explained in some detail. If you choose not to do it that's also valid, but it doesn't make it nonsense. I responded to a post that asked why someone might choose to follow that strategy. That was an explanation.

Despite the explanation you seem to think that there is no situation where someone might choose to use that strategy. Even though you say you "completely agree" with:

Anyone can employ any strategy they want at any time...

Make up your mind?

 

[CTRL Garage]

It's not nonsense. It's a valid strategy that I explained in some detail. If you choose not to do it that's also valid, but it doesn't make it nonsense. I responded to a post that asked why someone might choose to follow that strategy. That was an explanation.

It is nonsense to expect people to race in a particular manner and if they don't, to then complain about it,

Now I'm not saying you are complaining about it but I'm referring to @cjsrt4 attitude towards it

 

[Imari]

It is nonsense to expect people to race in a particular manner and if they don't complain about it,

Now I'm not saying you are complaining about it but I'm referring to @cjsrt4 attitude towards it

You wrote this.

I assumed that this was a complete sentence, and that you had accidentally pushed the comma button instead of the full stop, given that they're right beside each other.

In light of your response it seems more likely that the comma was correct, and you simply never finished writing the rest of the sentence.

 

[CTRL Garage]

You wrote this.

View attachment 1182353

I assumed that this was a complete sentence, and that you had accidentally pushed the comma button instead of the full stop, given that they're right beside each other.

In light of your response it seems more likely that the comma was correct, and you simply never finished writing the rest of the sentence.

updated my post, however to expect people to to only fight for a position towards the end of the race is nonsense in my books

 

[B80]

updated my post, however to expect people to to only fight for a position towards te end of the race is nonsense in my books

Yeah I'm struggling to agree that people should just move over. Regardless if a fast driver gets knocked off one the first corner or (especially not) if deliberately starts at the back with poor/no qualifying time (thats their own fault/choice). Obviously swerving all over the track like some do is highly questionable (goes back to another debate recently around picking your line once on that section and sticking to it).

I'm thinking of parallels with other sports. Its like a lower/mid table football (soccer) team being expected to allow a team near the top to beat them... which doesn;t make sense. Following gist of argument, apparently they should do this as it will reduce likelyhood of the better team fouling/injuring them etc etc... In fact its fairly common for the underdog to lineup for matches against significantly superior opponents with defensive formation, styles, sometimes with little intention of trying to score, and instead aiming to frustrate the opposition (time wasting, faking injuries, constant niggly fouls against the better team) and grind out a point. Its up to the superior team to work out a way to overcome that... I've never heard it suggested they should just let the better opposition an easy ride or win, even if they have nothing to play for.

 

[hollowkatt]

The slower person has an obligation to be aware of a faster driver coming through and not ruin both persons race. Take look at yourself before blaming anyone else. Pick your battles intelligently.

No, they really don't have that obligation. In all circumstances I'm aware of in real life racing it is always on the faster car to find a safe way to get past the slower car. Some series use blue flags to indicate "give way", others don't.

For example in Indy Car racing it is perfectly legal and moral for the last driver on the lead lap to be as wide as they can be to avoid going a lap down and it is on the faster car to pass. Same with NASCAR.

In multi-class endurance racing again, onus on the faster car to find a way around, and specifically the slower car is instructed to remain on the racing line so that they can be predictable.

The slower car has the obligation to be predictable and safe, but has zero obligation to let the faster car through. The faster car has the obligation to make the pass safely.

 

[kilesa4568]

Why late in the race, why not any other time in the race? car in front is entitled to any strategy they desire regardless of the outcome and perceived "sensibility" of said strategy

I honestly can't see why you'd defend against an inevitable pass and cost your self time to the people in front and behind who you're supposed to be racing. Horses for courses I guess.

 

[DJShadesUK]

inevitable

Alright, calm down, Thanos.

 

[CTRL Garage]

I honestly can't see why you'd defend against an inevitable pass and cost your self time to the people in front and behind who you're supposed to be racing. Horses for courses I guess.

And what determines this “who you’re supposed to be racing”?

Whoever is in front or behind you regardless of pace, that’s who you’re racing.

So you’re saying if someone who’s apparently faster comes up behind you, you should just pull over and roll out a red carpet for them to come past because you’re not racing them…
Have you actually watched any racing before 😂

Alright, calm down, Thanos.

Honestly if it’s inevitable you shouldn’t even enter the race

 

[kilesa4568]

And what determines this “who you’re supposed to be racing”?

Erm...your pace?

Whoever is in front or behind you regardless of pace, that’s who you’re racing

True, but when the car behind is catching you at around 3/10ths a corner, you're not really racing them are you. Not for long anyway...

So you’re saying if someone who’s apparently faster comes up behind you, you should just pull over and fool out a red carpet for them to come past because you’re not racing them…

I didn't say anything like that. You defend up to a safe place where a lift is enough to let them pass.

You start defending, you start losing time and that's what the car behind wants you to do. A semi decent driver will have it done in 3 or 4 corners if the lead car's defending is predictable.

Have you actually watched any racing before 😂

Yes. Have you?

Alright, calm down, Thanos.

Watching all the usual youtubers doing the last to first, it seemed the perfect word. It looks more like seal clubbing than racing when you've got that much of an edge in speed.

 

[Voodoovaj]

 

[CTRL Garage]

I guess Kevin Magnussen doesn’t know what he’s doing since he didn’t just let George Russell past him in the beginning stages of the Imola Grand Prix this year

 

[RacingFan1]

One friend has more or less the same problem as the OP.
His problem isn't just that he is slow. He is also very erratic and inconsistent in his driving. He doesn't pick the best racing lines, he has a very hard time in racing wheel to wheel, and he often doesn't brake at good braking points (often a bit too early)
So the result is, many collisions with others, and most of times its his fault. Since he seems to be incapable of doing better, he doesn't realise he consistently does erratic driving, so he always blames others.

 

[jrbabbitt]

When I made my original post i had no idea it would create such a ****storm, all I wanted was for some drivers to learn and respect that others differ from the way we drive, the way I drive I tend to brake earlier but softer to maximize the speed of the turn in apex, I know and use the concept of slow in and fast out and the way I attack the turns keeps me stable and consistent. Others will say I'm "blocking" I see this as driving my line. The bad thing about driving one's line it's that no one else sees that line and does not know what you will do in your line more often will bump you off your line and more likely of the track. All I wished for is understanding that we are not equal and because we drive differently that we should not be punted off because we'r not "better".

 

[kilesa4568]

When I made my original post i had no idea it would create such a ****storm, all I wanted was for some drivers to learn and respect that others differ from the way we drive, the way I drive I tend to brake earlier but softer to maximize the speed of the turn in apex, I know and use the concept of slow in and fast out and the way I attack the turns keeps me stable and consistent. Others will say I'm "blocking" I see this as driving my line. The bad thing about driving one's line it's that no one else sees that line and does not know what you will do in your line more often will bump you off your line and more likely of the track. All I wished for is understanding that we are not equal and because we drive differently that we should not be punted off because we'r not "better".

The hardest people to pass are the ones using unconventional lines and as a nod to alex's video above, using a very robust defence with a bit of rule bending like Magnussen usually does. It's still the following driver's job to pass safely but when you've got two cars close on track, some of the responsibility goes to the driver in front to avoid contact as well.

I agreed with your first post on this as I've seen some rough treatment dished out by some impatient drivers but you have to see the perspective of the quicker driver behind as they try and work out how to pass someone doing things differently.