Chrysler's "Project Genesis": Viper Death Put on Hold, Moving?

[TopHat]

So what. Who actually set the winning streak for American cars at LeMans after such a long period? What car has dominated the FIA GT more than any other? You do realize the Viper has always been called the better vehicle suited for the track, right? Have you even been reading that the new ACR is now one of the best track car for the dollar?

The Corvette won every race it entered in the ALMS in 2005. In 2006, the Corvette C6.R won both the Team and Manufacturer American Le Mans GT1 Championships. In March, 2007 it won its class at Sebring. A Corvette C6.R won the 24 Hours of Spa this year as well.

And do not even compare the interiors. Do you not realize how awful the Z06 interior was until this model year? I could live with the Viper's before.

Its not just the quality of the interior (The Vipers has always been worse), but how comfortable it is. The Viper's sidepipes heat the interior up pretty quickly.

BTW, your "redesign" comment is pretty worthless. The C5 Vette was in production for 7 years. The new Viper design has been in production for 5 years. Last I checked, 7 is more than 5.

BTW, your "redesign" comment is pretty worthless. The 1G Viper was in production for 9 years. The C5 had been in production for 7 years. Last I checked, 9 is more than 7. The 2G Viper has been in production for 5 years, the C6 for 3 years. Last I checked, 5 is more than 3. The Viper is going until 2011. The Corvette is supposed to be redesigned in 2009/10. That means that the Viper will be still older than the Corvette.

 

[McLaren]

The Corvette won every race it entered in the ALMS in 2005. In 2006, the Corvette C6.R won both the Team and Manufacturer American Le Mans GT1 Championships. In March, 2007 it won its class at Sebring.

ALMS? LMAO. Have you not been paying attention to the GT1 class the past years? The Corvette has been factory backed ever since compared to everyone else. Every win it gets these days are worthless to talk about since it kind of defies to logic of racing when you're the ONLY competitor in your class 80% of the year.

A Corvette C6.R won the 24 Hours of Spa this year as well.

Wow. The Viper's done that, too.

BTW, the fact that the C6R won this year means nothing. The MC12 is the new Viper with a back-to-back Spa 24H (2005 & 2006) win, and a Championship win 3 years in a row (2005, 2006, 2007).

Its not just the quality of the interior (The Vipers has always been worse), but how comfortable it is. The Viper's sidepipes heat the interior up pretty quickly.

And the Corvette has been complained of picking up every bump in the road. Your point?

BTW, your "redesign" comment is pretty worthless. The 1G Viper was in production for 9 years. The C5 had been in production for 7 years. Last I checked, 9 is more than 7.

I see someone doesn't do their homework.
Please. Explain to me how 1992-1995 equals 9 years.

The 2G Viper has been in production for 5 years, the C6 for 3 years. Last I checked, 5 is more than 3.

The 2nd generation was in production for 6 years, during the C5's 7 years.

The Viper is going until 2011.

Yes, the fourth generation. That means it'll be in production for 3-4 years. That's already shorter than the 6th generation Corvette.

The Corvette is supposed to be redesigned in 2009/10.

So that means the C6 generation will be in production for 4-5 years.

That means that the Viper will be still older than the Corvette.

That would be true except the Viper has gone through 4 generations, not 2.

I think you should be glad I'm the one who's letting you know this as I'm sure Vip would go nuts with people continuing to think the Viper has only been through 2 generations.

 

[TopHat]

The "first" and "second" generations were the same platform.

Straight from the Wiki:

Technically this was not a 'new' generation, but the same car with minor modifications such as increased engine power, stiffened and lightened chassis, an improved suspension, and reduced braking distances

The "third" and "fourth" generations? A larger engine and a new transmission? and a new hood? Mercy me! How could I ever be so ignorant!

So yes, it is 2 generations, just with MCEs. Kinda like the Focus.

 

[McLaren]

The "first" and "second" generations were the same platform.

Straight from the Wiki:



The "third" and "fourth" generations? A larger engine and a new transmission? and a new hood? Mercy me! How could I ever be so ignorant!

So yes, it is 2 generations, just with MCEs. Kinda like the Focus.

Doesn't matter. Dodge recognizes them as 4 generations.
The RT-10 is a 1st generation. The GTS is a 2nd generation Viper. The SRT-10 is a 3rd generation. The new one is technically a 4th generation, as the Viper was not built for the 2007 model year. Generations of cars normally do not skip a year, and come under the same generation.

BTW, I loved how you applied the changes of the 1st to 2nd generation to the 3rd & 4th.

 

[TopHat]

Doesn't matter. Dodge recognizes them as 4 generations.

The RT-10 is a 1st generation. The GTS is a 2nd generation Viper. The SRT-10 is a 3rd generation. The new one is technically a 4th generation, as the Viper was not built for the 2007 model year.

Dodge could call them 16 generations for all I care. Same platform = same generation. The "first" and "second" generations look exactly alike. As do the 3rd and 4th, except for the hood. With this logic, I could call the 70 Chevelle a different generation from the 71-73.

 

[YSSMAN]

The Corvette is supposed to be redesigned in 2009/10.

Roll that back about another two to three years. We won't see a new Corvette on the roads until 2012 at the absolute earliest. GM hasn't even figured out what exactly they want to do with the car. Smaller, lighter, and less-powerful seems to be the winning idea with an FR setup, but there are still the "keep the Y-body" factions, and of course the MR folks as well. So by the end of the C6's run, it will have lived the same six-ish year run that most of the others do.

===

To elaborate a bit more, I really don't think there is much to fight about. Ever since GM got serious about making the Corvette a performance car again in the C5 generation, its been a game of back and fourth between it and the Viper. The Z06 does this, the Viper does that, more stuff added to the Z06, the Viper counters.

I've never been a big fan of the Viper, personally. Sure, its got plenty of attitude and is good at being as American as it comes... But it has always been a bit too spartan for my tastes. I've been in a '96 GTS, ridding and such, and I didn't care much for it. It felt cheap, it was loud, and it sure as hell wasn't comfortable.

Guess what? Thats not what the Viper is meant to do...

The fact that the Viper exists, at least for me, is what always gave me hope for Chrysler. They took a pickup truck engine, shoved it into a sports car body, and kicked its ass out the door. It truly was a mish-mash of parts, but by God did it work!

Between the current SRT-10 Coupe and the Z06, the battle lines are drawn fairly clearly, but the "civility" of the Corvette continues to win out. The fact that it has an 8.3L engine with 600 BHP and barely outruns a 505 BHP Corvette is troublesome, particularly with the EPA coming down in the next few years.

...But again, its a Viper, and it shouldn't matter...

I'd personally suggest that they make two Vipers; One with a V8, making it more affordable and more fuel-friendly, and then a V10 option to keep the purists happy.

 

[Jay]

Personally I never looked at the RT-10 and GTS as being seperate generations. I always saw them as different versions of Viper as the were sold side by side the same time ( I am aware they are quite different), though GTS came in a little later.

I'd personally suggest that they make two Vipers; One with a V8, making it more affordable and more fuel-friendly, and then a V10 option to keep the purists happy.

Let the Viper die with dignity, downsizing/power dropping options on high perfomance cars rarely work out well and often drag their original well established name through mud.

 

[McLaren]

Dodge could call them 16 generations for all I care. Same platform = same generation. The "first" and "second" generations look exactly alike. As do the 3rd and 4th, except for the hood. With this logic, I could call the 70 Chevelle a different generation from the 71-73.

Too bad that's not true. The introduction of the GTS caused Dodge to up the RT/10. This is how the RT-10 became known as a 2nd generation.

Both cars looking alike does not mean they are the same generations. Each generation was built with something new.

To say the first Vipers were built for 9 years would be implying that the 400Hp Viper was built for 9 years? But, wait a second. How is that possible when Dodge showrooms were only filled with GTS' & RT/10's sporting 480 horses and much beefier equipment under the car? Sorry, don't see it.

Besides that, how could 1st gen. Vipers be built for 9 years when the GTS was only built for 6? Wouldn't that mean the Viper GTS is still younger than the Corvette C5 which still makes you wrong?

 

[Rykon Zero]

The Viper should go out with a bang. 700 HP, 650 Lb-ft of torque, and a body style to rival the original's pure muscle looks. The ultimate last hurrah.

 

[TopHat]

To say the first Vipers were built for 9 years would be implying that the 400Hp Viper was built for 9 years? But, wait a second. How is that possible when Dodge showrooms were only filled with GTS' & RT/10's sporting 480 horses and much beefier equipment under the car? Sorry, don't see it.

The Corvette just got a new engine this year. Does that mean this is the
C7 Corvette? Nope.

Now I'm going to continue to use the logic that when a car gets a new engine or some part changes, its a new generation.

When the C4 Corvette started production in 1984 it was still running the 1982 L83 engine, but in 1985, it received the new L98 engine! New Generation! In 1986, a Convertible was introduced. New Generation! In 1989 a 6 speed manual was introduced. New Generation! In 1991 it was facelifted. New Generation! Then, 1994 gave it a new interior. New Generation! At last, in 1996, it was given another new engine, the LT4. New Generation!

See that? That was 6 "generations" in 12 years! Wow!

Besides that, how could 1st gen. Vipers be built for 9 years when the GTS was only built for 6? Wouldn't that mean the Viper GTS is still younger than the Corvette C5 which still makes you wrong?

Because introducing a new body style and giving it a power boost doesn't constitute a redesign?

 

[SlipZtrEm]

There is now way Chrysler would be one to scrap the Challenger as it is on it's way to showrooms. The Challenger will sell far better than the Viper, and will probably reel in a lot more money. At this point, that would be economic suicide because all of the money has been put into the Challenger. They are only going to make money from it from here out. It will be a decent halo car as the top of the range I think.

The Viper probably did capture a lot of our imaginations, but the car will still be around to continue that in showrooms, and the ones that are on the road will continue to be rolling billboards for the young.

Sorry, what I should've said is, I would've rather had them never gone down the Challenger road, and stuck with the Viper. The Challenger's platform mates can be had with a 2.7L and an auto. Lame. And high sales is basically the opposite of a halo car (Vette excepted). I don't see how a "halo car" in the Mustang category is better than hanging with the Vette.

They'll be rolling reminders of how, at one point, Dodge offered an alternative to the common Vette for Americans who wanted to take it to the euro sports car establishment. A reminder of how Dodge used to have balls.

TopHat - Your argument that the first and second generation Vipers are the same; doesn't that mean the C5 and C6 are the same? I'm genuinely curious; I know there are obvious differences, but I was under the impression it's still the same basic chassis, just upgraded. Like the Viper's.

If Dodge wanted to call them two seperate generations, let them. If Chevy acknowledges the new 6.2L Vette as "C6.5", let them do that too. Though, I don't remember any of the first two generations coming in at 480hp from the factory, as McLaren said...

 

[V1P3R]

Wow, I'm touched there are so many people in defense of the Viper than I thought. Thanks.

 

[TopHat]

TopHat - Your argument that the first and second generation Vipers are the same; doesn't that mean the C5 and C6 are the same? I'm genuinely curious; I know there are obvious differences, but I was under the impression it's still the same basic chassis, just upgraded. Like the Viper's.

Uhh no? While the Corvette still runs on the Y-Body chassis, it was changed in nearly every dimension, and made of different materials as the C5 became the C6. The Viper was given a new engine and was lightened. Nothing else was changed, they have the exact same body panels. With the 3rd and 4th, the changes are even less evident, just a new hood and a power boost.

If Dodge wanted to call them two seperate generations, let them.

One time, a long time ago, GM did this. Does anyone remember the Citation II? Everything on the car was exactly the same, but GM acknowledged the cars as two separate generations of Citation. Does corporate acknowledgment make it correct?

If Chevy acknowledges the new 6.2L Vette as "C6.5", let them do that too. T

But they don't. Because they have a clue to what a redesign is.

 

[Philly]

Sorry, what I should've said is, I would've rather had them never gone down the Challenger road, and stuck with the Viper. The Challenger's platform mates can be had with a 2.7L and an auto. Lame.

At the time they were working on the Challenger, I'm sure they weren't in such a bad position. They wouldn't have known that they were going to have to scrap the Viper program down the road. And true about the Challenger having the option for smaller engines. That's only going to help. You are going to sell far more SRT-8s and three other trim levels than just the SRT-8 alone.

And high sales is basically the opposite of a halo car (Vette excepted). I don't see how a "halo car" in the Mustang category is better than hanging with the Vette.

Which is exactly why it is such a good idea (economically) to kill the Viper. They surely aren't going to get the money they put into a new one back out very quickly, much slower than they will the Challenger. True, they might lose some of the attention that the Viper generates, but really there aren't going to be too many people who are going to forget Dodge exists because the Viper is out of production. And when shopping for a car, you look for th best car, not the one from the company who makes the coolest car that you will never be able to afford. They are going to make much more money making a better Avenger than trying to convince the public that the Avenger is a four-door Viper.

Who says the Challenger will never be able to run with the Corvette? I haven't done any research comparing the two, but the SRT-8 version might be able to want to hang around the lower level Vettes. And what's stopping Dodge from shoving the Viper's V-10 under the hood?

They'll be rolling reminders of how, at one point, Dodge offered an alternative to the common Vette for Americans who wanted to take it to the euro sports car establishment. A reminder of how Dodge used to have balls.

I will give you that this decision will be advertising that Chrysler is in deep trouble. I doubt that everybody who sees one will say "oh, there's a Viper. I remember when Dodge had the balls to make something like that, but now they are too scared to do anything. What a shame." Ford's GT-40 didn't do that.

 

[Joey D]

And what's stopping Dodge from shoving the Viper's V-10 under the hood?

I have to imagine that a Viper V-10 weighs quite a bit and would be a little difficult to fit under the hood of the Challenger. I don't know what all the parameters are on both but I'm guessing it would be difficult.

And I guess something that probably is stopping them is the whole CAFE thing again. That seems to putting a major damper on everything.

 

[McLaren]

Uhh no? While the Corvette still runs on the Y-Body chassis, it was changed in nearly every dimension, and made of different materials as the C5 became the C6. The Viper was given a new engine and was lightened. Nothing else was changed, they have the exact same body panels. With the 3rd and 4th, the changes are even less evident, just a new hood and a power boost.

I take it you didn't know the 4th Generations also had many things re-tuned & tweaked as well.

But they don't. Because they have a clue to what a redesign is.

Redesigns are not a requirement for new generations.

The Corvette just got a new engine this year. Does that mean this is the
C7 Corvette? Nope.

The Viper didn't just get more power....

Because introducing a new body style and giving it a power boost doesn't constitute a redesign?

The new model was introduced in 1996. How can a car suddenly be part of the same generation as a car that was built 4 years before, when that previous car was also then upgraded to match the new model? As I said, the GTS was brand new, and featured a lot of new equipment. However, it had been 4 years since the '92 RT/10 package and everything re-fitted & added to the '96 GTS &RT/10 is easy enough to constitute it as a new generation. If the GTS was a first generation, Dodge would not have changed & tweaked much of the RT-10.

 

[YSSMAN]

And I guess something that probably is stopping them is the whole CAFE thing again. That seems to putting a major damper on everything.

That pretty much is the key right there. The reason why we still have the Corvette is because of not only its heritage, but because GM is willing to spend the money to make what is already a fairly efficent high-performance car even more "green" to dodge (ha ha) the CAFE bullet.

So, combine the CAFE standards with Chrysler's utter lack of funds, and you're setting yourself up for a game of "What do we kill now?" roulette. It would likely be far too expensive to completely redo a Viper that would actually be associated with "efficiency" and the like, and furthermore, it would kinda ruin the name as well.

I think that in the long-run, Chrysler very easily could save the car and the brand. But the problem is, Cerberus neither has the time nor the patience or possibly even the money to get the thing done.


=====

More on the generation issue:

After doing some research, both McLaren and TopHat are right. While it is absolutely silly to say that there are four generations of Doge Viper (given the tiny changes between the "generations"), both Chrysler and the legions of Viper fans have decided that there are four, and consequently, there are whether we like it or not. Its their way of organizing it, so just have to live with it... Even if that means that a bigger engine, a change in transmission and rear axles, and a new hood makes a "generation" brand-new.

As for the Corvette, the changes between the C5 and C6 weren't substantial, but it was enough to consider it a new generation. I want to say the parts carryover was something like 25% or less, but they were mainly parts that you otherwise wouldn't take notice of (transmissions, axles, etc). Its still the same Y-Body, however, but much like how the W-Body cars have survived for 20 years, GM usually does enough to modify the chassis to add to the reasoning for a generation change.

With the "C6.5" designation, I don't believe it was ever an official name in GM cannon, but I believe that Corvette fans use the name for organizational purposes as well. Enough parts were changed to make it feel like a completely different car, but otherwise, its still the same thing. I'll likely call it a C6 anyway, but C6.5 works well enough too. Either way, we've only got three or four years left of this generation anyway.

 

[Tornado]

You cannot say that the jump from RT/10 to GTS is a redesign and therefore newer if you ignore the Corvette went through similarly huge jumps in the same time period. You also cannot say (in particular) that the recent update of a Viper constitutes a model change when the Corvette went through completely identical changes at the same time.

Furthermore, because of the recent Corvette update that happened at the same time as the one the Viper received, saying the Viper is any newer than the Corvette is laughable. Chrysler can call it a new generation, and so can its legions of fans. But that doesn't change the fact that based on Chrysler's own apparent logic, the Corvette isn't any older, because...

The Viper didn't just get more power...

And neither did the Corvette. The only difference between the two is that Dodge calls the Viper a new generation when it gets major mid-cycle updates and Chevrolet doesn't unless it is completely redesigned. If they did, the C4 alone would have been 5 different generations anyways. But naming differences doesn't make the Viper any newer than the C6 Corvette is.

 

[Azuremen]

Viper has two generations. Sorry, but I am going to say it as well. Modifying the engine and bit and changing a small piece here or there does. By this logic, the Mk6 Celica would have had several separate "generations," since it they changed the output on the engine several times and revised elements of the suspension. Same goes for the MR2, and god only knows how many other cars.

The C6 has a shorter wheel base, shorter body, completely new body work, a different engine, revised everything else. But if you are arguing that becuse of the y-body sharing that its the same generation, then that type of logic would lead to saying the Focus, Mazda3, and S40 are the same car.

 

[V1P3R]

I was gonna say it was 2 gens and an one "update" to each gen.

 

[superberkut]

Regarding the Viper: Then what would the advantage be of having more generations? Would this be a selling point for the car? Yes, Chrysler declared that the Viper had 4 stages of evolution, but a generation should be an evolution of a car. So, in this respect, if the new changes implemented by the company greatly improved certain aspects of the car, or worked to the detriment of the vehicle, then perhaps it really is then that Chrysler says that the Viper has 4 generations, but as far as I can see, nothing really changed at all. The RT/10 and the GTS were essentially the same model in terms of many things (specifications, styling, performance being a couple).

For the redesign, I really fail to see the big deal in having a newer car. Supercars, unless there is a superior performer in the form of a rival car (aimed at the said car's market), do not seem to become outdated, though customer demand and opinion think otherwise.

I am partial to Corvettes, but this is not the reason why I may not miss the Viper. The Cerberus plan will need to be used a lot for this company, what with Chrysler being the champion of platform strategy.

 

[TopHat]

I was gonna say it was 2 gens and an one "update" to each gen.

*falls over laughing*

 

[SlipZtrEm]

At the time they were working on the Challenger, I'm sure they weren't in such a bad position. They wouldn't have known that they were going to have to scrap the Viper program down the road. And true about the Challenger having the option for smaller engines. That's only going to help. You are going to sell far more SRT-8s and three other trim levels than just the SRT-8 alone.

Oh, agreed, I don't think they saw this coming back then either. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree in regards to the lower trim levels being a good thing in a "halo" model though. A V6 or V8 Viper would've diluted the name, and seeing wimpy-wheeled, small-engined Challengers will do it too, for me anyways.

Which is exactly why it is such a good idea (economically) to kill the Viper. They surely aren't going to get the money they put into a new one back out very quickly, much slower than they will the Challenger. True, they might lose some of the attention that the Viper generates, but really there aren't going to be too many people who are going to forget Dodge exists because the Viper is out of production. And when shopping for a car, you look for th best car, not the one from the company who makes the coolest car that you will never be able to afford. They are going to make much more money making a better Avenger than trying to convince the public that the Avenger is a four-door Viper.

Fair points. I was always under the impression the Viper didn't actually cost the company a huge sum of money though, but I'm probably wrong on that one. I guess it's just that without the Viper in the lineup, there's less bad-assness associated with the brand. Heh.

Who says the Challenger will never be able to run with the Corvette? I haven't done any research comparing the two, but the SRT-8 version might be able to want to hang around the lower level Vettes. And what's stopping Dodge from shoving the Viper's V-10 under the hood?

It's what, 800lbs heavier? And still (slightly) down on power? It will want to hang around them, but I don't think it ever will. I mean, it is still essentially a 90's Merc chassis under there, not quite the perfect platform for an deeply sporty car. And I'll echo the sentiments about the V10: CAFE.

I will give you that this decision will be advertising that Chrysler is in deep trouble. I doubt that everybody who sees one will say "oh, there's a Viper. I remember when Dodge had the balls to make something like that, but now they are too scared to do anything. What a shame." Ford's GT-40 didn't do that.

I mentioned to my dad the Viper's dying and his first response was "man, they had balls to build it though" . The GT wasn't killed off for financial purposes though, it wasn't going to pass emissions and Ford never had any intentions of following it up directly; it was meant to become a collectible.

 

[Philly]

Oh, agreed, I don't think they saw this coming back then either. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree in regards to the lower trim levels being a good thing in a "halo" model though. A V6 or V8 Viper would've diluted the name, and seeing wimpy-wheeled, small-engined Challengers will do it too, for me anyways.

We will have that SRT-8 badge to look forward too.

Fair points. I was always under the impression the Viper didn't actually cost the company a huge sum of money though, but I'm probably wrong on that one. I guess it's just that without the Viper in the lineup, there's less bad-assness associated with the brand. Heh.

I believe their plans called for the making of a whole new car. You will surely make money off of a car like that just making and selling them, but developing a whole new car will cost Chrysler body parts that they cannot afford to lose.

It's what, 800lbs heavier? And still (slightly) down on power? It will want to hang around them, but I don't think it ever will. I mean, it is still essentially a 90's Merc chassis under there, not quite the perfect platform for an deeply sporty car. And I'll echo the sentiments about the V10: CAFE.

Those are good points. As for CAFE, that is a good point, but it also worries me about how long until we see another V-10 from Chrysler. If they can't put a V10 in there because of CAFE, what makes anybody think they will be able to put a V10 in any car? Even a viper, unless they dump tons of cash onto a new engine.

I mentioned to my dad the Viper's dying and his first response was "man, they had balls to build it though" . The GT wasn't killed off for financial purposes though, it wasn't going to pass emissions and Ford never had any intentions of following it up directly; it was meant to become a collectible.

I guess it's hard to find a good example from the past of what the Viper leaving will do to the Dodge brand.

 

[buickgnx88]

I don't see anything wrong with putting smaller engines in the Challenger because let's face it, people do buy small engines not to mention the Challengers of the 60's/70's came with small 6 cylinders and people purchased them. Now if they have a 4cyl in the new Challenger, that would be quite sad but putting in a V6 wouldn't be a bad thing...just as long as the base model doesn't have wheel covers.

 

[Jim Prower]

I would like a Base model Challenger with, say, black steelies, a chrome trim ring, and a Silver Center Cap....

Talk about yer Retro...

 

[TopHat]

I would like a Base model Challenger with, say, black steelies, a chrome trim ring, and a Silver Center Cap....

Talk about yer Retro...

I'd like a Challenger close to 20K. Or a cheap V8, maybe same content as the 20K car, but just with that nice 5.7L. Maybe 25K?

 

[viperking1]

Is there still hope, I took the time to write Dodge and here is what they have to say: Dear Ronald:

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Unfortunately, we do not have any information on future models as of
yet. Please feel free to use the link provided below to sign up for the
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Original Message Follows:
------------------------

New Vehicle Information - Dodge Brand Site
Brief Description:
Heres what I wrote to them: Hello everyone, I am contacting about the production of the Viper and if
the
rumors of it ending in 2011 are true. Hopefully the Viper will be
around
for many more years to come.

Comments:
Hello everyone, I am writing you all to see if the rumors about the
Viper
going out of production are true. Me and hundreds of thousands of other
people do not want to see the the Viper go. It is not only an iconic
car to
dodge, but an icon for US muscle cars period. When I see a mustung i
just
say "hey a mustang" or when I see a corvette its like "there goes
another
corvette" but when I see a Viper on the road or even on tv its really
something special and out of this world. I would greatly appreciate any
information that you have availiable about the greatest muscle ever
built
which is the Viper.

 

[Jim Prower]

Canned reply. that doesnt' tell us ANYTHING.

 

[YSSMAN]

When has Chrysler ever been honest about what they're doing? They're idiots, simply put. Sure, they've got "Mr. Toyota" at the helm of the company, but I don't think hes going to be able to turn it around before they plow head-first into the iceburg the size of Texas.